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Gren Stg , Volks StG's . Pgren Stg's...

15 Oct 2021, 09:34 AM
#1
avatar of Sgt.BigHead

Posts: 65

What is the main distinct difference between Grenadier suqat leader Stg vs Volks vs Pgren Stg's ?

Also idea of giving 5 vet volks to pGren stg's.

15 Oct 2021, 09:44 AM
#2
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2538 | Subs: 2

What is the main distinct difference between Grenadier suqat leader Stg vs Volks vs Pgren Stg's ?

Also idea of giving 5 vet volks to pGren stg's.

PGren StG is better, especially on closer ranges. I forgot about the most recent changes to VSL, but I vaguely remember that the StG is either the same or functionally similar to Volks StG.
15 Oct 2021, 14:24 PM
#3
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 194



Also idea of giving 5 vet volks to pGren stg's.



The Stg upgrade on Volks is (balance wise) completely fine. You pay 60 muni for good close and medium range dmg increase and therefore a nice powerspike.

Whats bad about Volks is their awful "target size" with 0,77 at max vet, which translates into 520 effective HP. Compare this to Rifles 625, Cons 676 (pre upgrade) or Penals 623. On top of that they only get x1,3 accuracy with vet while having no option to get powerful lategame weaponery like dual bars or dual brens to compensate for this. But i think the bleeding part is way worse than having supbar dmg. At the end of the day Cons get 5,38 hp per manpower (reinforce), Rifle 4,46 and Penals/Volks 4,16.

I dont think it would harm balance much if Volks get a little boost on lvl 5, healing on 4 and remove the useless vision shit. But i guess there is no room for that after 3 years of putting Grens and Cons into the prime position they are now :).
15 Oct 2021, 14:53 PM
#4
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1557

Pgren stg's are better at all ranges under 30 than volk and gren stg's. VSL stg's are slightly better at close range than volk stgs's.
15 Oct 2021, 18:52 PM
#5
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 302

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2021, 14:24 PMGeblobt


The Stg upgrade on Volks is (balance wise) completely fine. You pay 60 muni for good close and medium range dmg increase and therefore a nice powerspike.

Whats bad about Volks is their awful "target size" with 0,77 at max vet, which translates into 520 effective HP. Compare this to Rifles 625, Cons 676 (pre upgrade) or Penals 623. On top of that they only get x1,3 accuracy with vet while having no option to get powerful lategame weaponery like dual bars or dual brens to compensate for this. But i think the bleeding part is way worse than having supbar dmg. At the end of the day Cons get 5,38 hp per manpower (reinforce), Rifle 4,46 and Penals/Volks 4,16.

I dont think it would harm balance much if Volks get a little boost on lvl 5, healing on 4 and remove the useless vision shit. But i guess there is no room for that after 3 years of putting Grens and Cons into the prime position they are now :).


Not sure what you can do without messing with balance. When compared to Penals, you are not locked into a specific tech early, similar reinforce and similar HP since the increase is due to the extra man. Personally I think they should get Sprint not Pfussi due to it synergizing with both MP40 upgrade and stg upgrade.
18 Oct 2021, 13:36 PM
#6
avatar of y3ivan

Posts: 127

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2021, 14:24 PMGeblobt


The Stg upgrade on Volks is (balance wise) completely fine. You pay 60 muni for good close and medium range dmg increase and therefore a nice powerspike.

Whats bad about Volks is their awful "target size" with 0,77 at max vet, which translates into 520 effective HP. Compare this to Rifles 625, Cons 676 (pre upgrade) or Penals 623. On top of that they only get x1,3 accuracy with vet while having no option to get powerful lategame weaponery like dual bars or dual brens to compensate for this. But i think the bleeding part is way worse than having supbar dmg. At the end of the day Cons get 5,38 hp per manpower (reinforce), Rifle 4,46 and Penals/Volks 4,16.

I dont think it would harm balance much if Volks get a little boost on lvl 5, healing on 4 and remove the useless vision shit. But i guess there is no room for that after 3 years of putting Grens and Cons into the prime position they are now :).


your understanding of target size to effective HP for infantry is somewhat flawed. The game logic for infantry combat is depending on dice roll on the Accuracy roll not target size.

The game has a hard cap of 0.61 received accuracy. In other words, a vet 3 god-tier Gren squad will have a hard cap of 0.61 target size when been shot at by a shit accuracy infantry like vet 0 conscripts. Relic hardcoded into the game to prevent matrix RNG dodging infantry.
18 Oct 2021, 14:34 PM
#7
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2538 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2021, 13:36 PMy3ivan

The game has a hard cap of 0.61 received accuracy. In other words, a vet 3 god-tier Gren squad will have a hard cap of 0.61 target size when been shot at by a shit accuracy infantry like vet 0 conscripts. Relic hardcoded into the game to prevent matrix RNG dodging infantry.

Wait what?
That's the first time I see someone mentioning this.
I am not sure if I understand correctly: do you mean a squad has at least 0.63 RA? Because that is not in line with what I have seen from modding.
And what does the cap have to do with low acc units?
18 Oct 2021, 14:55 PM
#8
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 651

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2021, 13:36 PMy3ivan

The game has a hard cap of 0.61 received accuracy. In other words, a vet 3 god-tier Gren squad will have a hard cap of 0.61 target size when been shot at by a shit accuracy infantry like vet 0 conscripts. Relic hardcoded into the game to prevent matrix RNG dodging infantry.

source please, because all vetted Axis elite infantry has lower then that RA. Also this make yellow cover redundant in most situations
22 Oct 2021, 03:03 AM
#9
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5268

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2021, 13:36 PMy3ivan


your understanding of target size to effective HP for infantry is somewhat flawed. The game logic for infantry combat is depending on dice roll on the Accuracy roll not target size.

The game has a hard cap of 0.61 received accuracy. In other words, a vet 3 god-tier Gren squad will have a hard cap of 0.61 target size when been shot at by a shit accuracy infantry like vet 0 conscripts. Relic hardcoded into the game to prevent matrix RNG dodging infantry.

From my understanding of the game, your arse is doing more talking than your fingers here.

Chance to hit is a combination of accuracy and target size, and target size is not capped. Vetted obers for example have a target size of only 0.5 it's quite simply impossible for an oversight like that to not only exist, 'but for the community at large to be unaware of it.
9 Nov 2021, 01:21 AM
#10
avatar of Applejack

Posts: 307

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2021, 14:24 PMGeblobt


The Stg upgrade on Volks is (balance wise) completely fine. You pay 60 muni for good close and medium range dmg increase and therefore a nice powerspike.

Whats bad about Volks is their awful "target size" with 0,77 at max vet, which translates into 520 effective HP. Compare this to Rifles 625, Cons 676 (pre upgrade) or Penals 623. On top of that they only get x1,3 accuracy with vet while having no option to get powerful lategame weaponery like dual bars or dual brens to compensate for this. But i think the bleeding part is way worse than having supbar dmg. At the end of the day Cons get 5,38 hp per manpower (reinforce), Rifle 4,46 and Penals/Volks 4,16.

I dont think it would harm balance much if Volks get a little boost on lvl 5, healing on 4 and remove the useless vision shit. But i guess there is no room for that after 3 years of putting Grens and Cons into the prime position they are now :).


OKW players get Obers which beats everything so any buffs to Volks would ruin the balance. I can imagine Volks performing better against barred Rifles or 7 man cons. Volks fight and then there is less left to stop or hold the Obers.
9 Nov 2021, 10:30 AM
#11
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 194



OKW players get Obers which beats everything so any buffs to Volks would ruin the balance. I can imagine Volks performing better against barred Rifles or 7 man cons. Volks fight and then there is less left to stop or hold the Obers.


OKW had 46% winrate top 200 1vs1 last month and 44% this month.(Imo in teamgames infantry power is less important) Do you really think giving volks better vet5 veterancy will bring them to 60%? In 4vs4 many players already go Fussies cause Volks are nothing more than mp bleed later on.

There are units who can hold off Obers (Paras long range, Shocks, etc), but its a 4men T4 unit. It takes ages until you get atleast 2 Obers vet 2. Just use your tanks or arty. Have you ever played with Scotts against Obers? Thats just free manpower bleed.
9 Nov 2021, 14:33 PM
#12
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 302




There are units who can hold off Obers (Paras long range, Shocks, etc), but its a 4men T4 unit. It takes ages until you get atleast 2 Obers vet 2. Just use your tanks or arty. Have you ever played with Scotts against Obers? Thats just free manpower bleed.


What you described is pretty much every elite AI unit so it is not a unique problem. Now I am not sure if you meant Two Ober squads to Vet2. Which is a lot of initial cost/bleed but it is supposed to be. OKW seems to be the only army that can easily fit in several Elite squads with out wipes.

Soviet: most elite players go 3 conscripts 2 guards or 4 conscripts 1 guard. Other elites seem to be out of favor due to MP bleed or lack of utility.

USF: Before Pathfinder spam going for 2 or more Para's was a resource drain due to their target size and late arrival. Rangers were even worse since they due the exact same things rifle due but without snare. So at that point why even make it.

Ost: How often do you see high end players go for 2 PG let alone 1 outside of non-meta strats.

The point is you can't buff one without thinking of the other due to how blobby all WFA are.
9 Nov 2021, 15:04 PM
#13
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 194



What you described is pretty much every elite AI unit so it is not a unique problem. Now I am not sure if you meant Two Ober squads to Vet2. Which is a lot of initial cost/bleed but it is supposed to be. OKW seems to be the only army that can easily fit in several Elite squads with out wipes.

Soviet: most elite players go 3 conscripts 2 guards or 4 conscripts 1 guard. Other elites seem to be out of favor due to MP bleed or lack of utility.

USF: Before Pathfinder spam going for 2 or more Para's was a resource drain due to their target size and late arrival. Rangers were even worse since they due the exact same things rifle due but without snare. So at that point why even make it.

Ost: How often do you see high end players go for 2 PG let alone 1 outside of non-meta strats.

The point is you can't buff one without thinking of the other due to how blobby all WFA are.


Ofc its unique. Every (semi-)elite unit arrives around CP2-3. Only OKW needs its most expensive tech structure to get them (their elite) out. If you dont rush T4 its gonna take some time until you get them out. Therefore the shock value between Lmg Obers and Lmg Paras is vastly different.

Ostheer and Soviets dont even need elites, cause they have the best mainline inf in the mid and lategame. In theory USF doesnt really needs elites too, cause their mainline scales good enough to be useful lategame. But their weapon tech/upgrade is a little bit too costly.

Compared to Ost/Sov Okw has way bigger popcap problems. I dont understand how you can think that OKW has an easy time getting 2 Obers on top of 3/4 mainline squads and support weapons with their heavy popcap tanks.
9 Nov 2021, 15:37 PM
#14
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 302



Ofc its unique. Every (semi-)elite unit arrives around CP2-3. Only OKW needs its most expensive tech structure to get them (their elite) out. If you dont rush T4 its gonna take some time until you get them out. Therefore the shock value between Lmg Obers and Lmg Paras is vastly different.

Ostheer and Soviets dont even need elites, cause they have the best mainline inf in the mid and lategame. In theory USF doesnt really needs elites too, cause their mainline scales good enough to be useful lategame. But their weapon tech/upgrade is a little bit too costly.

Compared to Ost/Sov Okw has way bigger popcap problems. I dont understand how you can think that OKW has an easy time getting 2 Obers on top of 3/4 mainline squads and support weapons with their heavy popcap tanks.


What your saying is a bit strange, every allied elite comes CP2-3 while PG can come earlier especially if your talking team games. Falls are CP2 but are doctrinal like most allied elites. In your last statement you say tanks which means your talking mainly team games if POP is that big of an issue. If your not then fitting in 2 Obers is feasible along with 2 MG and 2 raks which is fairly meta. Only when your talking Panthers is POP that big of a problem.

Going to your original post, aside from combat performance, players go for Fussies for their Utility such added sight and Flare which ends up being fairly useful in all modes. I think that is where VG should get a buff, maybe the ability to throw down a cheap AI mine that drops only 1 model similar to the soviet doctrinal one(7 muni I think). This way VG would be able to dictates fight better with out messing with overall balance.

I agree in theory about USF, but in practice since they are designed to assault they need to get in close with double bars which causes a unstainable amount of bleed which is fairly well known. The whole Pathfinder/scott meta allows the USF player to bypass this massive weakness while still paying similar to the same in weapon upgrade cost(1 or 2 Bars) along with same tech cost.

9 Nov 2021, 17:17 PM
#15
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 194



What your saying is a bit strange, every allied elite comes CP2-3 while PG can come earlier especially if your talking team games. Falls are CP2 but are doctrinal like most allied elites. In your last statement you say tanks which means your talking mainly team games if POP is that big of an issue. If your not then fitting in 2 Obers is feasible along with 2 MG and 2 raks which is fairly meta. Only when your talking Panthers is POP that big of a problem.


Ofc you could argue that Pgrens come too early, but my point is that Obers deserve their performance regardless whether Volks are shit or not, just because their timing is much slower than other elite inf.
If you go 2 Obers, 2Raks, 2 Mgs you have either a smaller number of tanks or no indirect at all. GL breaking defenses.



Going to your original post, aside from combat performance, players go for Fussies for their Utility such added sight and Flare which ends up being fairly useful in all modes. I think that is where VG should get a buff, maybe the ability to throw down a cheap AI mine that drops only 1 model similar to the soviet doctrinal one(7 muni I think). This way VG would be able to dictates fight better with out messing with overall balance.


The utility is nice, but nothing crazy. A little bit of vision (42 instead of 35 i think) wont give you that much of an advantage. And the flares are pretty costly with 50 muni. There are more important things like mines and call-in arty. The combatboost is way more important than these gimmick utilities.



I agree in theory about USF, but in practice since they are designed to assault they need to get in close with double bars which causes a unstainable amount of bleed which is fairly well known. The whole Pathfinder/scott meta allows the USF player to bypass this massive weakness while still paying similar to the same in weapon upgrade cost(1 or 2 Bars) along with same tech cost.


Paths scott are just cheese, which require heavy outplaying from your opponent to beat. I dont think it has much to do with how good Rifles are. Just look at Ele+scopes. This tactic gets played all the time in teamgames. And not cause Panther or Stug are shit compared to Ele. No its because this combo is way more difficult to beat than the classic Panther spam.
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