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HM-38 120mm Mortar Squad is OP

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21 Nov 2021, 17:05 PM
#121
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 753


If an axis squad is already clumped up behind green cover it's going to be hit just as hard by the normal mortar as by the 120, so long as the mortar hits right on it. Which is why I mentioned it being a "placebo" effect, because one of the posters was saying that it was "melting" infantry behind cover like it has some kind of special damage against them.

you are technically correct, because 120mm shines because of longer mid and far AOE radius, but mortars do not do 68 on direct hit, they do that damage at a point of "Distance near" radius.

That means basic mortar deals 68 damage at range of 1 and 120mm at range of 1.5. From that point towards point of impact (0) it rises in linear fashion to 80. So hypothetically if mortar hits a dude right in the dome, it should kill him even if he is fresh out of the base.
Personally I never paid attention if it happened, even tho I'm perpetual "build with a single 120mm" type of a guy.

Some stats:


If I'm wrong, pls correct, since this is how I see the situation through numbers.
21 Nov 2021, 17:07 PM
#122
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13149 | Subs: 1


No one ever claimed otherwise. You're trying to correct people for something they never said wrong.
He clearly stated that AoE is different, but max damage is not even before you tried to "correct" him. Please re-read his comments for context.

This is simply not about max damage but about how much total HP damage an infatry squad will suffer when hit by these weapons.

User didimegadudu has claim that HM-38 does too much damage on infantries squads.



the problem with 120mm is, u cant cap or be near the soviets base. even in cover your health will melt


User Katukov and donofsandiego have claimed that the damage infantries squads suffer are exactly the same:

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Nov 2021, 12:58 PMKatukov


identical to any other fucking mortar/indirect light artillery in the game, amazing


and it falls slower than the 81mm mortars that do the exact same thing at a shorter range



Do we agree that a 120 mm mortar shell will cause more total HP damage to an infatry in most cases than other mortars will cause?

(edited)
21 Nov 2021, 17:27 PM
#123
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 753

Typical Vipper and his shenanigans to masterly bait people into debate. Ffs the guy said that 120mm has bigger AOE. Why is this 1 page long holy war is even a thing is beyond me.
21 Nov 2021, 18:00 PM
#124
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13149 | Subs: 1

Typical Vipper and his shenanigans to masterly bait people into debate. Ffs the guy said that 120mm has bigger AOE. Why is this 1 page long holy war is even a thing is beyond me.

Instead of posting about "vipper" stay on topic and answer a simple question.

When an infatry squad is hit by an 120mm mortar, is the damage taken "identical to any other fucking mortar"?

If your answer is no, Katukov claim is false and so is donofsandiego who not only agreed with him but in addition claimed that HM-38 "doesn't do *more* damage than the mortar" and that people only think they it does more damage because "placebo effect from the larger explosion visuals"
21 Nov 2021, 18:29 PM
#125
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1256

The placebo effect has some truth to it imo. Its impact animation and sound make it seem far more supirior then it actualy is.

While in fact its aoe and its range are its strong features. Its rof wich nobody talks about somehow is considerably lower. Also if people use it at max range only it will hit almost everything but the intended target(s)

It also cost about a third more then other mortars and probably its aoe is a third better, its popcap is a third higher. Imo this is all balanced as it should be.
21 Nov 2021, 18:32 PM
#126
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

I love how vipper REEEES about AoE while ignoring RoF difference between 120mm and other mortars as well as scatter.
21 Nov 2021, 19:15 PM
#127
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 964 | Subs: 1

I like how it went into discussing damage, which is fine. Survivability of 120mm isnt fine, not its damage.

Its being placed in a tier list with pack howi and IGs, but both cant retreat and die fast enouth even to weaker counters if played incorrectly.

120mm not only has supperior firing profile (since mortars arent effected by shot blockers as much) but also have the best survivability and retreat on top of it. Its just too much even for a commander unit.

I would have undertand if 120mm had the shittiest range therefore it needed its survivability, but its not. There is not a single reason for a unit, which already can outrange almost all awaible counterparts (untill rocker arty) and effectively stay out of a danger, to have surviability of a frontline unit and firepower of a glass cannon artillery piece.

IGs at least have the worst AOE and the wost barrage, Pack howi dies like a fly if placed agressively or being fired upon but 120mm dont have any of mentioned disadvantages.
21 Nov 2021, 19:58 PM
#128
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2838 | Subs: 2

I like how it went into discussing damage, which is fine. Survivability of 120mm isnt fine, not its damage.

Its being placed in a tier list with pack howi and IGs, but both cant retreat and die fast enouth even to weaker counters if played incorrectly.

120mm not only has supperior firing profile (since mortars arent effected by shot blockers as much) but also have the best survivability and retreat on top of it. Its just too much even for a commander unit.

I would have undertand if 120mm had the shittiest range therefore it needed its survivability, but its not. There is not a single reason for a unit, which already can outrange almost all awaible counterparts (untill rocker arty) and effectively stay out of a danger, to have surviability of a frontline unit and firepower of a glass cannon artillery piece.

IGs at least have the worst AOE and the wost barrage, Pack howi dies like a fly if placed agressively or being fired upon but 120mm dont have any of mentioned disadvantages.

There is some trade off between damage and survivability.
The PaK Howie is usually similar to even better than the 120mm. The leIG is somewhere in between normal mortars to the Howie/120mm. Usually closer to the mortars, but takes the first place. We also should not forget that the 120mm costs more population and compared to the leIG, also MP.
21 Nov 2021, 21:34 PM
#129
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 964 | Subs: 1


There is some trade off between damage and survivability.
The PaK Howie is usually similar to even better than the 120mm. The leIG is somewhere in between normal mortars to the Howie/120mm. Usually closer to the mortars, but takes the first place. We also should not forget that the 120mm costs more population and compared to the leIG, also MP.


Lets be honest here pak howi while sometimes can do more damage then 120mm, its clunky AF to use, has hell of lot models to reinforce and being decrewed with a lot more models being alive. Also, you rearely can play super agressive with your pak howi to begin with because of mentioned reasons, while you can do it with 120mm mortar since its generally just harder to lose it resulting more aressive placement therefore less scatter because of the range, so its actually questinable which of the units will deal more over-all damage during the game.
But in any case, even if theoretically or practically Pak howi is better in damage across the board, 120mm godlike (in comparison) survivability is not a fair trade-off, considering damage difference is not that huge as the one in survivability department.


IGs is cheaper I agree, but its cheap cost is the result of its perfomance, since its close to being useless unless using its auto-fire. But my point was that all three units 120\Pak\IGs are units in the same tier, I mean even 120 autofire was nerfed to be in line with them, so I think its kinda fair to look at them as a comparison anyway.
21 Nov 2021, 22:54 PM
#130
avatar of Ashmole

Posts: 61

I think the easiest solution is to take away it's retreat ability. Keep everything as is but just make it behave like a LEIG. It's a very heavy weapon that should be punished if it is not protected.
21 Nov 2021, 22:58 PM
#131
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Nov 2021, 22:54 PMAshmole
I think the easiest solution is to take away it's retreat ability. Keep everything as is but just make it behave like a LEIG. It's a very heavy weapon that should be punished if it is not protected.


Rip retreat off the Rak for me while you're at it please.
21 Nov 2021, 23:17 PM
#132
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2838 | Subs: 2



Lets be honest here pak howi while sometimes can do more damage then 120mm, its clunky AF to use, has hell of lot models for reinforcement and being decrewed with a lot more models being alive. But in any case, you rearely can play super agressive with your pak howi to begin with because of mentioned reasons, while you can do it with 120mm mortar since its generally just harder to lose it resulting more aressive placement therefore less scatter because of the range, so its actually questinable which of the units will deal more over-all damage during the game.
But in any case, even if theoretically or practically Pak howi is better in damage across the board, 120mm godlike (in comparison) survivability is not a fair trade-off, considering damage difference is not that huge as the one in survivability department.


IGs is cheaper I agree, but its cheap cost is the result of its perfomance, since its close to being useless unless using its auto-fire. But my point was that all three units 120\Pak\IGs are units in the same tier, I mean even 120 autofire was nerfed to be in line with them, so I think its kinda fair to look at them as a comparison anyway.

I'm just saying that there are more differences that we shouldn't forget when comparing these units. Survivability is definitely better on the 120mm compared to the Howie and ISG. The pop difference especially to normal mortars is huge (2-3). The 120mm should basically perform like 1,5 "normal" mortars. Compared to the Howie, damage is not really better, rather a bit worse. Especially if you consider that also the Howie has been reworked towards its barrage, which still reaches 20m further than the 120mm.
Clunkyness? I find both of them quite bad in that regard. The 120mm has a larger cone so it needs to reposition less often. But when it has to, it is basically useless. The 120mm needs 3 seconds more to pack, rotate and set up compared to the Howie. I assume this is largely map dependent. On wide, open maps with more flanking possibilities I found my 120mm constantly rotating to keep facing squads, that often run away or break through by the time the mortar can fire again. Howie can be similar, but I personally find it more responsive to enemy pushes. But obviously this is highly subjective.

I personally wouldn't put the leIG into the same "tier" as the 120mm in the sense of expecting similar performance. I find it closer to normal mortars, but in the end they all fill the same role so comparisons to all mortars are fine. I just don't want the discussion to drift to the typical "but unit A has this special feature which makes it too strong compared to unit B", all the while neglecting that there are huge price differences or something similar. Not saying you did that, but you get the point.
21 Nov 2021, 23:46 PM
#133
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 753


I'm just saying that there are more differences that we shouldn't forget when comparing these units. Survivability is definitely better on the 120mm compared to the Howie and ISG. The pop difference especially to normal mortars is huge (2-3). The 120mm should basically perform like 1,5 "normal" mortars. Compared to the Howie, damage is not really better, rather a bit worse. Especially if you consider that also the Howie has been reworked towards its barrage, which still reaches 20m further than the 120mm.

at maps such as Baku pack howie can actually deal solid damage from a very safe distance. But in damage from the same range 120mm is decently better (checked it with Scatter this!).
Howie is also easier to decrew because it needs 1 guy less to kill (4 guys vs 5 guys) and the squad seem to be more clumped on pack howie. I kind of agree with Gachi that it is way easy to get away with stupid stuff with 120mm vs pack howie. But if you do decrew and capture it, it makes it easier to steal as well (which is very rare, because it is that hard to be decrewed)
MMX
22 Nov 2021, 02:17 AM
#134
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1


you are technically correct, because 120mm shines because of longer mid and far AOE radius, but mortars do not do 68 on direct hit, they do that damage at a point of "Distance near" radius.

That means basic mortar deals 68 damage at range of 1 and 120mm at range of 1.5. From that point towards point of impact (0) it rises in linear fashion to 80. So hypothetically if mortar hits a dude right in the dome, it should kill him even if he is fresh out of the base.
Personally I never paid attention if it happened, even tho I'm perpetual "build with a single 120mm" type of a guy.

Some stats:


If I'm wrong, pls correct, since this is how I see the situation through numbers.


This is a tricky one and I used to believe it works like this as well until I tested it a while back. As it turns out, no matter how clumped a squad is and how many models eat a mortar shell straight to the face, they'll all live to tell the tale if they've been at full health before. Max damage per shot is indeed capped at the AoE_near damage value, which is 68 for all mortar shells (except things like delayed fuse or heat rounds).
I'm not too sure about the exact reason behind this, but the most logical explanation is that indirect rounds can neither directly hit (i.e. roll a natural hit via accuracy) nor score a collision hit with an infantry model (all projectile-based weapons "phase" through infantry without colliding as opposed to vehicles or buildings). Hence, while mortars can and will occasionally deal 80 damage to tanks and buildings via collision hits they can't one-shot full-health infantry models due to the damage being capped at 68.
22 Nov 2021, 02:30 AM
#135
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 964 | Subs: 1


I personally wouldn't put the leIG into the same "tier" as the 120mm in the sense of expecting similar performance. I find it closer to normal mortars, but in the end they all fill the same role so comparisons to all mortars are fine. I just don't want the discussion to drift to the typical "but unit A has this special feature which makes it too strong compared to unit B", all the while neglecting that there are huge price differences or something similar. Not saying you did that, but you get the point.


Performance is not the point, its merely a reference point. We might aswell bring all mortars and look at them in this context but its rather pointless because closest units to 120mm are Paks\IGs.

Point is being that 120mm mortar surviability is blantly unjutified by anything aside from it being a commander unit, sure its more expensive then regural mortars by so are the closest units, sure it take more pop-cap but so do closest units awell. Sure 120mm might be marginally more expensive and take few additional pop-cap or be marginally weaker in certain situations, but its blantly a mile away when it comes to staying power and being countered.

Even if we forget about other units completly, even in a vacuum, I still cant find a single reason why 120mm actually needs its surviability or what its compensated for, thats the point.
22 Nov 2021, 04:11 AM
#136
avatar of NorthWeapon
Donator 11

Posts: 593

120mm is Soviet... its survivability is supposed to be good...
22 Nov 2021, 07:26 AM
#137
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1256

120mm is Soviet... its survivability is supposed to be good...


This.
Also soviets have no stock healing bunkers and forward hq to reinforce and heal it at the same time. All factions can do this stock except soviets. Wich adds to the survivability of the pak howi and leig, esp the leig as the major and ambu are much easier to take out.
22 Nov 2021, 11:03 AM
#138
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

We're still blatantly ignoring RoF and scatter compared to all other indirects its being constantly compared to?
Yeah? Ok....
22 Nov 2021, 11:41 AM
#139
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13149 | Subs: 1

For those you wish to see a better comparison of the stats of these weapons check here:

https://www.coh2.org/topic/106172/indirect-fire-performance-a-comparison

HM-38 has higher DPS and in second place after pack howitzer.

(if I am not mistaken these graphs do are not updated to buff M1 mortar got.)
22 Nov 2021, 12:07 PM
#140
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 602


Even if we forget about other units completely, even in a vacuum, I still cant find a single reason why 120mm actually needs its survivability or what its compensated for, that's the point.

Could not agree more.

120mm is Soviet... its survivability is supposed to be good...

Given the changes to sovs over the last couple of years, in particular the boost to conscript durability, as well as the fact that sov late game ( in 1v1 ) is universally considered extremely strong almost to the point of being OP, the argument that soviets need high survivability to offset other weakness no longer hold true.

Most people are simply asking for retreat to be removed so pressure can be applied and rewarded though good counter play as opposed to the current situation where the best outcome is to chase the unit off with maybe 1 or 2 model drops.
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