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JP4 performance

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9 Oct 2021, 13:29 PM
#101
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 3085 | Subs: 2



ok i get it but what is your solution? lets say we will nerf its armour to make it paper thin like su85. Its performance vs TD's wont change as they have high pen anyway, it will still be OP with KT's/tigers and makes an underused unit even less desirable but at least it will be more venerable to med tanks.

From my experience, the problem does not stem from the unit itself but when its used in combination with other tanks. jp4 + KT or su85 with ISU152's both are almost impossible to overcome.

1 solution could be armour and VET nerf (give accuracy or more damage in VET instead or nothing at all) as well as a price decrease which could make it more appealing to go for (maybe have it med truck like before), but im curious about what you think should be done.

My initial thought would be to delete that +160 HP veterancy and reduce the ROF a bit, in exchange for a small price buff and making the stealth a bit more appealing (I personally don't like it although I recognize that it can be strong in some situations). I'd also move some of the reload veterancy to penetration. +10-20% (or split across two vet levels) probably would make it a bit more reliable while still not being OP vs heavies).
I think this could position the JP4 as a cheaper and less durable alternative to the Panther. Unfortunately this makes it also more of a SU85 copy.

Technically, it could also get the Jackson treatment and have thinner front armor so that mediums have better chances assaulting it.

Not sure if that is too much or maybe even not enough, but it would take away the indestructability.
12 Oct 2021, 06:14 AM
#102
avatar of GreenDevil

Posts: 394

You are focusing too much on the unit in a vacuum. The JP4 is not OP at all, and is fine just how it is. Don't touch it.

If you are having a problem with JP4 then you aren't using AT Guns. End of story.
12 Oct 2021, 08:22 AM
#103
avatar of lovendead

Posts: 28

wow... another okw nerf

meanwhile SU85 with mark target can melt anythings

You are focusing too much on the unit in a vacuum. The JP4 is not OP at all, and is fine just how it is. Don't touch it.

If you are having a problem with JP4 then you aren't using AT Guns. End of story.

+1
12 Oct 2021, 09:58 AM
#104
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 3085 | Subs: 2

You are focusing too much on the unit in a vacuum. The JP4 is not OP at all, and is fine just how it is. Don't touch it.

Then formulate proper arguments why and where my logic is wrong. I've given multiple viewpoints on the JP4 throughout this thread, there is no "vacuum" comparison.

If you are having a problem with JP4 then you aren't using AT Guns. End of story.

My point is that I am having no real issues with my JP4 against ATGs. They can hamper the effectiveness, but are no real threat. Even a double tapped JP4 can still win against a counter-diving medium unless it is completely unsupported. This issue is exacerbated at vet2.
12 Oct 2021, 11:42 AM
#105
avatar of lovendead

Posts: 28


Then formulate proper arguments why and where my logic is wrong. I've given multiple viewpoints on the JP4 throughout this thread, there is no "vacuum" comparison.


My point is that I am having no real issues with my JP4 against ATGs. They can hamper the effectiveness, but are no real threat. Even a double tapped JP4 can still win against a counter-diving medium unless it is completely unsupported. This issue is exacerbated at vet2.


it's like saying panther no real issues too againt ATG. JP4 has to micro a lot if they dive (maybe except dive from the front). like everyone said it's never been vacuum.

SU85 has his scope, Jackson can repair it self, Firelly has tulip. <<< this are things that are really really great for TDs

IMO, in late game where allies have so much tools to melt axis tanks, HP increase can help

I dont know why if Axis get a bit of advantage, they gettin anothers nerf...
12 Oct 2021, 16:54 PM
#106
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



IMO, in late game where allies have so much tools to melt axis tanks, HP increase can help

I dont know why if Axis get a bit of advantage, they gettin anothers nerf...


Allies have better tools to melt axis armour because axis armour is just better overall, esp stock tanks. Mostly allied doctrinal tanks are on par.

If axis had better armour still and allies had the same level at tools as axis up onto mediums that is, that axis would waltz over allies like no tomorrow.

Getting buffed and some compensating nerfs happens to allies in the same amount.
12 Oct 2021, 17:26 PM
#107
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 3085 | Subs: 2



it's like saying panther no real issues too againt ATG. JP4 has to micro a lot if they dive (maybe except dive from the front). like everyone said it's never been vacuum.

SU85 has his scope, Jackson can repair it self, Firelly has tulip. <<< this are things that are really really great for TDs

IMO, in late game where allies have so much tools to melt axis tanks, HP increase can help

I dont know why if Axis get a bit of advantage, they gettin anothers nerf...

This is not an 'Axis vs Allies' topic, I am not going to dive into that.

Every TD has strengths, but all of them have an exploitable weakness. I've put my arguments to the table more than once already, so I'll keep it brief here to not overly repeat myself.
Panther and Stug have 50 range vs Allied 60 range TDs. Allied TDs in turn have good guns, but are fragile and/or slow. JP4 is a bit clunky, which gets solved at later vet stages. But that's it. It is durable, has a great gun for what it needs. Allied TDs do not dominate the Axis stock verhicles as much as the JP4 dominates the Allied ones. And the Raketenwerfer is not an issue that the JP4 needs to compensate. If OKW needed to compensate for a weaker ATG compared to Ostheer, their Panther would also need to be stronger, which it is not.
12 Oct 2021, 19:37 PM
#108
avatar of lovendead

Posts: 28



Allies have better tools to melt axis armour because axis armour is just better overall, esp stock tanks. Mostly allied doctrinal tanks are on par.

If axis had better armour still and allies had the same level at tools as axis up onto mediums that is, that axis would waltz over allies like no tomorrow.

Getting buffed and some compensating nerfs happens to allies in the same amount.


Allies have superior arty overall, maybe infantry too

su85, jackson, firefly are stock and they are doing great at the moment as TDs


This is not an 'Axis vs Allies' topic, I am not going to dive into that.

Every TD has strengths, but all of them have an exploitable weakness. I've put my arguments to the table more than once already, so I'll keep it brief here to not overly repeat myself.
Panther and Stug have 50 range vs Allied 60 range TDs. Allied TDs in turn have good guns, but are fragile and/or slow. JP4 is a bit clunky, which gets solved at later vet stages. But that's it. It is durable, has a great gun for what it needs. Allied TDs do not dominate the Axis stock verhicles as much as the JP4 dominates the Allied ones. And the Raketenwerfer is not an issue that the JP4 needs to compensate. If OKW needed to compensate for a weaker ATG compared to Ostheer, their Panther would also need to be stronger, which it is not.


IMO, you keep saying it like just JP4 vs allied TD coz its never happen in real game. And in a real game is never without a doctrine. JP4 is not durable before vet 2, and their gun miss by a lot. JP4 no turret and cluncky move and no AI capability for OKW is a weakness

raketen really on a tight spot at the moment, they are only shine when they came out, after that they'll lose miserably againts allied META

i am not ask you to dive on allies vs axis, it just OKW vs allies things




12 Oct 2021, 20:37 PM
#109
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 3085 | Subs: 2

IMO, you keep saying it like just JP4 vs allied TD coz its never happen in real game. And in a real game is never without a doctrine. JP4 is not durable before vet 2, and their gun miss by a lot. JP4 no turret and cluncky move and no AI capability for OKW is a weakness

raketen really on a tight spot at the moment, they are only shine when they came out, after that they'll lose miserably againts allied META

i am not ask you to dive on allies vs axis, it just OKW vs allies things

No TD has AI, that is not special about the JP4. Yet, the JP4 has superior AT capabilities. The Raketen is good, OKW does not need some AT compensation on the vehicle part.
It is a bit clunky as I said, but this resolves itself at vet. It also is quite durable even before vet2, the armor is enough for mediums not being a threat from the front as well as for bouncing an occasional ATG shot.

I am actually less concerned about the vet0 JP4 than about the JP4 once it vets up. It is almost unkillable (or you force a usually favorable trade) while having top notch ROF.
12 Oct 2021, 21:19 PM
#110
avatar of lovendead

Posts: 28


No TD has AI, that is not special about the JP4. Yet, the JP4 has superior AT capabilities. The Raketen is good, OKW does not need some AT compensation on the vehicle part.
It is a bit clunky as I said, but this resolves itself at vet. It also is quite durable even before vet2, the armor is enough for mediums not being a threat from the front as well as for bouncing an occasional ATG shot.

I am actually less concerned about the vet0 JP4 than about the JP4 once it vets up. It is almost unkillable (or you force a usually favorable trade) while having top notch ROF.


Firefly has mg on his turret

raketen is not good, just fair, and im not saying they need buff or anything

ofc they deserve superior AT capabilities, coz dont have turret, no scope, can't repair itself, dont have tullip, dont have hvap, can't see the enemies after you shot it, what's more?

you saying it unkillable, coz IMO you are properly play it, but when allies properly play it too, it's killable

12 Oct 2021, 23:28 PM
#111
avatar of GreenDevil

Posts: 394


Then formulate proper arguments why and where my logic is wrong. I've given multiple viewpoints on the JP4 throughout this thread, there is no "vacuum" comparison.


My point is that I am having no real issues with my JP4 against ATGs. They can hamper the effectiveness, but are no real threat. Even a double tapped JP4 can still win against a counter-diving medium unless it is completely unsupported. This issue is exacerbated at vet2.


You are forgetting the JP4's main weaknesses:
1. Turretless, therefore very flank-able and extremely vulnerable from behind.
2. It is a glass cannon, +160 HP at Vet 2 is warranted as it takes skill to use it properly in it's only role which is a TANK DESTROYER.
3. If Allied mediums are trying to go "toe to toe" frontally against JP4 and get beaten off, this is normal.
4. Extremely vulnerable to AT infantry.

If I was Soviet playing against you, I would use a ZiS AT Gun supported by SU85 in spot mode and your JP4 is toast. If I was US I would use ATG with a Jackson. If I was British I would ATG and FF or send in Churchill with 2000 HP for a meat shield and plug away at you.

Just because you are using one unit particularly well, doesn't mean it is OP. Some players are braindead and don't know the counters.
13 Oct 2021, 02:47 AM
#112
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 782 | Subs: 1


*funny babbling here*


You are forgetting the SU-85's main weaknesses:
1. Turretless, therefore very flank-able and extremely vulnerable from behind.
2. It is a glass cannon, +0 HP at Vet 2 is warranted as it takes skill to use it properly in it's only role which is a TANK DESTROYER.
3. If axis mediums are trying to go "toe to toe" frontally against SU-85 and get beaten off, this is normal.
4. Extremely vulnerable to AT infantry.

If I was Werhmacht playing against you, I would use a PAK-40 AT Gun supported by a panther in blitzkrieg mode and your SU-85 is toast. If I was Oberkommando I would use ATG with a JP4.

Just because you are using one unit particularly well, doesn't mean it is OP. Some players are braindead and don't know the counters.
13 Oct 2021, 09:03 AM
#113
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3085 | Subs: 2



You are forgetting the JP4's main weaknesses:
1. Turretless, therefore very flank-able and extremely vulnerable from behind.
2. It is a glass cannon, +160 HP at Vet 2 is warranted as it takes skill to use it properly in it's only role which is a TANK DESTROYER.
3. If Allied mediums are trying to go "toe to toe" frontally against JP4 and get beaten off, this is normal.
4. Extremely vulnerable to AT infantry.

If I was Soviet playing against you, I would use a ZiS AT Gun supported by SU85 in spot mode and your JP4 is toast. If I was US I would use ATG with a Jackson. If I was British I would ATG and FF or send in Churchill with 2000 HP for a meat shield and plug away at you.

Just because you are using one unit particularly well, doesn't mean it is OP. Some players are braindead and don't know the counters.

1. I mentioned this one multiple times
2. with 640/800 HP and 230 armor it is everything BUT a glass cannon. None of the other 60 range TDs gets any survivability bonus. Why does the JP4 need it?
3. Again, Axis mediums can go toe to toe to damaged Allied TDs to finish them of. Additionally, the Panther is suitable for deep dives and getting it out alive afterwards.
4. Again, as all other TDs are. This is nothing special to the JP4, so this is no reason to explain its performance.

None of these builds you suggested will really be worth it. Even with such an investment, you will not be able to kill the JP4. And if you consider that the OKW player will have JP4+Raketenwerfer, your USF and SOV combo will not be enough and lose over time.

Deep medium dives are the only option against the JP4. Your TD won't kill it, your ATG won't chase. Handheld AT will likely not do enough damage (unless you go double ranger bazooka blob). Even double ATG (unvetted) builds will only have ~50% kill chance with their first two salvos against an unvetted JP4 and that is already assuming all shots hit. Once the JP4 vets up, there is barely any way to get that much damage in in that short amount of time.
Your best non-doc chance is to dive far behind this thing (even from the side you might get front armor and ~50% bounce chance). And you're diving against the faction that has a quick snare on basically every mainline squad. Best outcome for an Allied player is to trade slightly up with a medium for the JP4. From my experience there is a decent chance that the dive fails and you just lose the medium, so that this strategy overall is more often than not a trade down.
13 Oct 2021, 09:18 AM
#114
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772

I have seen the build Hannibal described and did it several times, but again the build is so late and so expensive, that you might lose the game before you get to it.

Personally I think the edge that JP has over other TDs is not that big. Yes, the vet is great, but it is quite lengthy and it exacerbates with the fact that Allies does not have a lot of "shell sponges" like panther, tiger or even Sturmpanzer in their stock roster to get that vet. Hell even Vipper went on a several pages tangent about it cost, which is precisely why I think it should stay the way it is, since it can do what no stock Axis vehicle do - trade with TDs at a rather safe distance.
If the price drops in parallels with some nerfs, JP could become more spammable and result in even more cancer.

I can definitely see the point, but it looks like the "don't touch if it works" situation. Maybe I'm missing something, since I don't play 4v4 and it could be an issue at high level there.


This is not an 'Axis vs Allies' topic, I am not going to dive into that.



Allies have superior arty overall, maybe infantry too

:lol:
13 Oct 2021, 10:03 AM
#115
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 3085 | Subs: 2

I have seen the build Hannibal described and did it several times, but again the build is so late and so expensive, that you might lose the game before you get to it.

Personally I think the edge that JP has over other TDs is not that big. Yes, the vet is great, but it is quite lengthy and it exacerbates with the fact that Allies does not have a lot of "shell sponges" like panther, tiger or even Sturmpanzer in their stock roster to get that vet. Hell even Vipper went on a several pages tangent about it cost, which is precisely why I think it should stay the way it is, since it can do what no stock Axis vehicle do - trade with TDs at a rather safe distance.
If the price drops in parallels with some nerfs, JP could become more spammable and result in even more cancer.

I've had this issue too. In this special build, it is a bit hard to get along until you get the Tiger in addition. Afterwards Allies will probably run into the most durable army that CoH2 can offer.
Outside of the build, the JP4 does not really fit the faction. I think it overperforms for what it costs, but underperforms for what OKW needs at the times you'd consider buying it.

... since I don't play 4v4 and it could be an issue at high level there.

Unfortunately I can't speak for either of these as well :snfPeter:
Overall, I rarely see the JP4 when I play Allies. When I play OKW and get a JP4, I noticed I have to force this build more often than it coming up naturally (almost mandatory Kubel to reduce bleed for 1-2 Obersoldaten later on that compensate for the JP4s lack of AI). It works fine once you reach ~18 min and the next vehicle option is in sight to complement the JP4. The build itself is decent, the JP4 is great. But it just does not really fit into the faction outside of specialized doctrinal builds. And that should not be the case for a stock vehicle.
13 Oct 2021, 16:23 PM
#116
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Firefly has mg on his turret



The panzerwerfer has an MG on the top of it. It's equally revevant to the role and balance of the unit.
Pip
13 Oct 2021, 16:34 PM
#117
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594



snip



The JP4 is absolutely not a "Glass cannon" regardless of anything else. It has strong armour, and has a 160HP advantage over medium tanks at veterancy. This is an absolutely ludicrous statement to make.
13 Oct 2021, 17:59 PM
#118
avatar of lovendead

Posts: 28


The panzerwerfer has an MG on the top of it. It's equally revevant to the role and balance of the unit.

wow.... how can someone exlplaining so much how JP4 is good as it is, and you only quote that?

im saying it coz he said no TD has AI, and im not pointing it as a balance issue equally
13 Oct 2021, 21:02 PM
#119
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279


wow.... how can someone exlplaining so much how JP4 is good as it is, and you only quote that?

im saying it coz he said no TD has AI, and im not pointing it as a balance issue equally

the firefly mg has roughly the DPS as 2 conscript models. that is not AI, its fireworks. it also only shoots out to 35 range, nearly half of its max range.
claiming that ~7 dps at point blank and ~3.5 at 35 range constitutes "having AI" is a fools claim that is grasping at straws
the elefant ALSO has a hull mg, and that hull mg dals about double the damage (~15 short and ~4.5 @35) but nobody claims that the elefant has AI, on the contrary, its universally accepted that the elefant has no AI/ because its insignificant AND requires the unit to be out of position to utilize.

incase you wanna claim the elefant is too slow, the pwerfer also deals nearly double more damage (about 13 close and 4ish at 35) the firefly, yet i have never once seen it fight off a flank nor rush in to stop capping infantry with its tremendous and totally worth mentioning....

no 60 range TD has any AI to speak of (that last bit is implied)
13 Oct 2021, 21:17 PM
#120
avatar of lovendead

Posts: 28


the firefly mg has roughly the DPS as 2 conscript models. that is not AI, its fireworks. it also only shoots out to 35 range, nearly half of its max range.
claiming that ~7 dps at point blank and ~3.5 at 35 range constitutes "having AI" is a fools claim that is grasping at straws
the elefant ALSO has a hull mg, and that hull mg dals about double the damage (~15 long and ~4.5 @35) but nobody claims that the elefant has AI, on the contrary, its universally accepted that the elefant has no AI/ because its insignificant AND requires the unit to be out of position to utilize.

incase you wanna claim the elefant is too slow, the pwerfer also deals nearly double more damage (about 13 close and 4ish at 35) the firefly, yet i have never once seen it fight off a flank nor rush in to stop capping infantry with its tremendous and totally worth mentioning....

no 60 range TD has any AI to speak of (that last bit is implied)


OK, good point
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