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JP4 performance

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3 Oct 2021, 15:36 PM
#81
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 622


The JP4 then counters Allies' biggest strength: Their access to 60 range TDs to chip away Axis armor from afar. The JP4 counters all of them with ease. That's why it synergizes so well with the KT and Tiger.

KT with panzer commander and spearhead has ~65 sight range (maybe more). Pretty much jp4 and KT combo is really hard to punish. It is a lot of popcap and resources though and particularly in 2v2 OKW guy can suffer a lot while stalling for KT + rolling out Jp4 instead of P4 is far from optimal, unless you have very strong infantry composition.
4 Oct 2021, 14:16 PM
#82
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 991

JP4 works well and is non-doc answer versus allies TDs. (first fire from cloak hit hard)
Unbalance in team games is around heavy tanks and heavy TDs.
5 Oct 2021, 07:56 AM
#83
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 506



In 3v3 there is always a JP4 wall sooner or later on most maps. You won't play it in the tourney because a Panther is generally a better choice. Much more mobile and counters every tank, hard. JP4 is more difficult to use and a more defensive tank, used to solidify the position. In 1v1 there is no such thing as solidifying. In 2v2+ there most certainly is. In 3v3 it's most common.
With 60% penetration and a couple of seconds between shots, no tank wants to stand in the line of fire for too long. With a bit of luck on JP4 side, your tank goes bye-bye.
So yeah, it's OP in teamgames but not because of it's stats or whatever. JP4 should have lower armour IMHO since it has such low target size and becomes a 5-shot tank with veterancy. But the main strength of JP4 is in map design. Put 1-2 JP4s on a map like redball. Combine it with a stuka and a KT and you have an impenetrable fortress that will only ever be pushed back by 2 opponents combined. Such nonsense would not work on 1v1 maps and some 2v2

Relic needs to talk to you about 2v2+ game modes. I've noticed your knowledge on team game strategies are top notch.

Edit: both you and Lady Xenarra contribute great analysis.
5 Oct 2021, 13:49 PM
#84
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 354

Ahh yes the su85s patented mobility. It's basically a formula 1 car turned assault gun


jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 19:00 PMVipper

I have not posted anything close to that sentence.




BS on a whole other level, it's truly something else
6 Oct 2021, 18:41 PM
#85
avatar of Reverb

Posts: 134









It's much easier to react to dives in the SU85 than it is the JPIV. Both are slugs but the JPIV is a slug on heroin in reaction ability.

Mobility matters quite a lot here, not saying ROF isn't important, but can the JPIV have at least one significant stat that's superior to allied TDs?

JPIV is a great unit but it's not a hard counter to allied TDs, it's up to the superior player in these types of engagements.
It might have a leg up in certain situations (lanes) but it also has a leg down in others.
It's mediocre against Comets, Churchills, IS2, ISU, Pershing. Comets get spammed as much as Panthers.
6 Oct 2021, 18:53 PM
#86
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 354

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Oct 2021, 18:41 PMReverb


It's much easier to react to dives in the SU85 than it is the JPIV. Both are slugs but the JPIV is a slug on heroin in reaction ability.

Mobility matters quite a lot here, not saying ROF isn't important, but can the JPIV have at least one significant stat that's superior to allied TDs?

JPIV is a great unit but it's not a hard counter to allied TDs, it's up to the superior player in these types of engagements.
It might have a leg up in certain situations (lanes) but it also has a leg down in others.
It's mediocre against Comets, Churchills, IS2, ISU, Pershing. Comets get spammed as much as Panthers.


Besides the point. I don't have a pony in this race. Just pointing out Vipper's gaslighting once again because it irks me.
7 Oct 2021, 02:28 AM
#87
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 184

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Oct 2021, 18:41 PMReverb


It's much easier to react to dives in the SU85 than it is the JPIV. Both are slugs but the JPIV is a slug on heroin in reaction ability.

Mobility matters quite a lot here, not saying ROF isn't important, but can the JPIV have at least one significant stat that's superior to allied TDs?

JPIV is a great unit but it's not a hard counter to allied TDs, it's up to the superior player in these types of engagements.
It might have a leg up in certain situations (lanes) but it also has a leg down in others.
It's mediocre against Comets, Churchills, IS2, ISU, Pershing. Comets get spammed as much as Panthers.

the real power of Jpz4 is completely shut down alies TD play, is it enough ?.
main problem of Jadpz4 is its pathfinding and too forcus on AT specialist. People on axis side tend to forget about it because Panther can do more thing with less mirco tax and risk.
to be fair, a Jadpanzer 4 combine with Pz4, panther, brumbar (in team game ) is always better than one type of tank spam.
8 Oct 2021, 07:27 AM
#88
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1557

So will we see an eventual/obligatory and unnecessary JP4 nerf????
8 Oct 2021, 11:51 AM
#89
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 776

A lot of comments here saying jp4 shuts down allied TD's, that's just simply not true, they are both in range and can fight each other, yes in a vaccum jp4 may have the advantage but this is not 1 unit vs 1 unit and even it was, Firefily can have tupils to wreck the jp4, jackson can outflank it easily and su85 can spot it first. AN elephant or jagdtiger shuts down Allied TD's.

Ppl as usual over exaggerating unit performance
8 Oct 2021, 12:34 PM
#90
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1166

A lot of comments here saying jp4 shuts down allied TD's, that's just simply not true, they are both in range and can fight each other, yes in a vaccum jp4 may have the advantage but this is not 1 unit vs 1 unit and even it was, Firefily can have tupils to wreck the jp4, jackson can outflank it easily and su85 can spot it first. AN elephant or jagdtiger shuts down Allied TD's.

Ppl as usual over exaggerating unit performance


Lol, jackson can outflank it XD.

You've just proven your level of game sense. I'd excuse myself of commenting further if I were you.
Imagine that. Jackson outflanking a JP4. Talking about units in a vacuum xD
Holy moly, that's some rank 9999 talking right there or just the usual wehraboo stuff
8 Oct 2021, 14:29 PM
#91
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 776



Lol, jackson can outflank it XD.

You've just proven your level of game sense. I'd excuse myself of commenting further if I were you.
Imagine that. Jackson outflanking a JP4. Talking about units in a vacuum xD
Holy moly, that's some rank 9999 talking right there or just the usual wehraboo stuff


if you learn to read, im addressing the point the "jp4 shuts down allied TD play". i understand people like you who have below average IQ and have trouble understanding what context is
8 Oct 2021, 15:16 PM
#92
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2514 | Subs: 2

A lot of comments here saying jp4 shuts down allied TD's, that's just simply not true, they are both in range and can fight each other, yes in a vaccum jp4 may have the advantage but this is not 1 unit vs 1 unit and even it was, Firefily can have tupils to wreck the jp4, jackson can outflank it easily and su85 can spot it first. AN elephant or jagdtiger shuts down Allied TD's.

Ppl as usual over exaggerating unit performance

The SU85 will usually still lose even despite having the first shot (which is by far also not a guarantee).
Firefly can fight back with Tulips, those are very hard to aim at 50-60 range and apart from Tulips it will heavily lose.
Jackson? Not too much. It can just avoid the JP4. Best it could do is to spot an angle, take a pot shot and back off before the JP4 has rotated, but that is unreliable at best and takes a huge micro effort. Real flanking is not a realistic option. The main Jackson's main strength is its 60 range, you're not diving this vehicle. If you want to flank and dive, a Sherman is the better option.

In most scenarios, Allied TDs will trade way worse than the JP4, especially of both of them gather veterancy over time.
8 Oct 2021, 17:34 PM
#93
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 776


The SU85 will usually still lose even despite having the first shot (which is by far also not a guarantee).
Firefly can fight back with Tulips, those are very hard to aim at 50-60 range and apart from Tulips it will heavily lose.
Jackson? Not too much. It can just avoid the JP4. Best it could do is to spot an angle, take a pot shot and back off before the JP4 has rotated, but that is unreliable at best and takes a huge micro effort. Real flanking is not a realistic option. The main Jackson's main strength is its 60 range, you're not diving this vehicle. If you want to flank and dive, a Sherman is the better option.

In most scenarios, Allied TDs will trade way worse than the JP4, especially of both of them gather veterancy over time.


same of the jp4, it could very well miss on long range , however i am not disagreeing with your post, i was just responding to the people saying jp4 SHUTS DOWN allied TD play which is just not true.
8 Oct 2021, 19:07 PM
#94
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2514 | Subs: 2

same of the jp4, it could very well miss on long range , however i am not disagreeing with your post, i was just responding to the people saying jp4 SHUTS DOWN allied TD play which is just not true.

I did not mean actually hitting a target, but rather just having the first shot. According to my calcs (assuming SU85 hits about 2/3 of its scatter shots which is fairly in line from what I tested against a medium tank and JP4 hits 50% of its scatter shots due to larger scatter angle), JP4 wins fairly easily in direct combat. The SU85 can equal out if the JP4 has to rotate for about 2 seconds (SU85 attacks at 40° angle) before being able to shoot. Granted, I the reduced precision for the first shot is not factored in, but still.

Once the JP4 hits vet2 and gets extra health, SU85 can't really win anymore, even at vet3. Regarding pure DPS, the SU85 is the best of the Allied destroyers. Which means that without any support (or at the very least lucky long range Tulips from the Firefly), Jackson and Firefly will likely lose too.
If you regularly have to push into a JP4, which many maps force you to, the best you can realistically hope for as an Allied player is to trade somewhat equally with the JP4 and force a retreat. In 80% of the other scenarios, you'll draw the short end of the stick.

To make it short:
It depends on what you understand as "shut down". Complete domination with high chance of regularly losing your TD? No, that's not the case. But severly hampering its performance? For sure.
A P4 also does not utterly dominate a T34. But whenever those two meet, the T34 should not pick the fight unless there are other units to support it. Obviously this comparison is a bit off, since those mediums have a cost difference which in case of the JP4 either not the case or slightly even in favor of the JP4.
8 Oct 2021, 19:27 PM
#95
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 776


I did not mean actually hitting a target, but rather just having the first shot. According to my calcs (assuming SU85 hits about 2/3 of its scatter shots which is fairly in line from what I tested against a medium tank and JP4 hits 50% of its scatter shots due to larger scatter angle), JP4 wins fairly easily in direct combat. The SU85 can equal out if the JP4 has to rotate for about 2 seconds (SU85 attacks at 40° angle) before being able to shoot. Granted, I the reduced precision for the first shot is not factored in, but still.

Once the JP4 hits vet2 and gets extra health, SU85 can't really win anymore, even at vet3. Regarding pure DPS, the SU85 is the best of the Allied destroyers. Which means that without any support (or at the very least lucky long range Tulips from the Firefly), Jackson and Firefly will likely lose too.
If you regularly have to push into a JP4, which many maps force you to, the best you can realistically hope for as an Allied player is to trade somewhat equally with the JP4 and force a retreat. In 80% of the other scenarios, you'll draw the short end of the stick.

To make it short:
It depends on what you understand as "shut down". Complete domination with high chance of regularly losing your TD? No, that's not the case. But severly hampering its performance? For sure.
A P4 also does not utterly dominate a T34. But whenever those two meet, the T34 should not pick the fight unless there are other units to support it. Obviously this comparison is a bit off, since those mediums have a cost difference which in case of the JP4 either not the case or slightly even in favor of the JP4.


i agree with your assessment. So whats wrong? should JP4 be losing to allied TD's? isn't jp4 beating and to effectively fighting back and counter allied TD's exactly what this unit should be capable of? correct me if wrong, jp4 exists to counter medium armoured tanks and below, hence why it does not have the pen of other 60 range TD's but does have better armour and health which allows it to counter them better. Allied TD's already effectively counter every single axis non doc vehicle expect for the jp4. as far as i can see, this unit is performing as intended.
8 Oct 2021, 21:10 PM
#96
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3148 | Subs: 7

i was just responding to the people saying jp4 SHUTS DOWN allied TD play which is just not true.


It does shut them down. At vet 0 it will usually win against the Jackson and Firefly due to target size and ROF advantage and it has a small advantage against the SU-85, and it starts demolishing all of them (especially the Jackson and FF) once it starts getting veterancy with the cloak, the extra HP and the high ROF and accuracy.

Not to mention the combination with a Tiger or Tiger II (or Sturmtiger) in which the JP4 shines the most, as those will be in front taking the hits from the Allied TDs while the JP4 retaliates. A well microed heavy + 1-2 JP4 combo can be incredibly hard to defeat.
8 Oct 2021, 22:11 PM
#97
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2514 | Subs: 2

i agree with your assessment. So whats wrong? should JP4 be losing to allied TD's? isn't jp4 beating and to effectively fighting back and counter allied TD's exactly what this unit should be capable of? correct me if wrong, jp4 exists to counter medium armoured tanks and below, hence why it does not have the pen of other 60 range TD's but does have better armour and health which allows it to counter them better. Allied TD's already effectively counter every single axis non doc vehicle expect for the jp4. as far as i can see, this unit is performing as intended.

As I wrote in my opening post, I am kind of divided if I personally consider the JP4 already OP or "just" very good. That's why I wanted to start this discussion.
From how I read your post, you're arguing that Allied TDs are already good against everything except for the JP4. If they performed well against the JP4, they'd lack a real weakness, which would be bad for the game.
I fully agree.

And that's exactly the issue that I have with the JP4. It counters all Allied non-doc vehicles with the exception of the Comet and maybe, maybe the Churchill (against which it still does "okay"). Including - if not to say, especially - all Allied TDs. One single unit in one single faction is all that the JP4 is bad against. USF and Soviets are kind of out of options. Also, the JP4 does not win against TDs because of its armor (it has <4,5% frontal bounce chance), but because of its ROF and at vet2 also health.

While Allied TDs are at least rather fragile (SU85 and Jackson) or clunky and slow firing (Firefly), giving even mediums the chance to just bum rush a damaged TD and win. That's not the case with the JP4. If you don't find the rear armor, good luck with ~55% pen chance with your medium tank all while having lower ROF than the JP4. If you're Axis and dive an Allied TD, getting to the rear is beneficial, but you can still manage if not. As Allies against the JP4, it is actually required, because otherwise you cannot win.

In my eyes, the only things holding the JP4 back are slight mobility issues until it vets up and most of all its timing. In the current meta and with OKW often losing the infantry advantage around the 15 min mark, your first vehicle should be a medium, not a TD. For some reasons (I assume reliability and less micro but not sure) people often get the Panther afterwards.

As Sanders said, builds with heavies are hard to beat. I personally play them with grand offensive. Pfusies keep you safe from flanking mediums, and you have the option for the Tiger. I found it sometimes difficult to make it to the Tiger because of some holes in the AI line up that are caused by the JP4, but they can be manageable and once you got the Tiger, you're usually good to go for the end game.
9 Oct 2021, 00:20 AM
#98
avatar of Mittens
Donator 11

Posts: 1276

*snip*
Yeah I agree the jp4 is rly durable and while it lacks the early efficiently you'd get out of an su-85 with vet the jp4 is down right busted.
9 Oct 2021, 00:48 AM
#99
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 693

Not understand why JP4 have 160HP increase at Vet2 not like other German panzer increase armor....
9 Oct 2021, 13:08 PM
#100
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 776


As I wrote in my opening post, I am kind of divided if I personally consider the JP4 already OP or "just" very good. That's why I wanted to start this discussion.
From how I read your post, you're arguing that Allied TDs are already good against everything except for the JP4. If they performed well against the JP4, they'd lack a real weakness, which would be bad for the game.
I fully agree.

And that's exactly the issue that I have with the JP4. It counters all Allied non-doc vehicles with the exception of the Comet and maybe, maybe the Churchill (against which it still does "okay"). Including - if not to say, especially - all Allied TDs. One single unit in one single faction is all that the JP4 is bad against. USF and Soviets are kind of out of options. Also, the JP4 does not win against TDs because of its armor (it has <4,5% frontal bounce chance), but because of its ROF and at vet2 also health.

While Allied TDs are at least rather fragile (SU85 and Jackson) or clunky and slow firing (Firefly), giving even mediums the chance to just bum rush a damaged TD and win. That's not the case with the JP4. If you don't find the rear armor, good luck with ~55% pen chance with your medium tank all while having lower ROF than the JP4. If you're Axis and dive an Allied TD, getting to the rear is beneficial, but you can still manage if not. As Allies against the JP4, it is actually required, because otherwise you cannot win.

In my eyes, the only things holding the JP4 back are slight mobility issues until it vets up and most of all its timing. In the current meta and with OKW often losing the infantry advantage around the 15 min mark, your first vehicle should be a medium, not a TD. For some reasons (I assume reliability and less micro but not sure) people often get the Panther afterwards.

As Sanders said, builds with heavies are hard to beat. I personally play them with grand offensive. Pfusies keep you safe from flanking mediums, and you have the option for the Tiger. I found it sometimes difficult to make it to the Tiger because of some holes in the AI line up that are caused by the JP4, but they can be manageable and once you got the Tiger, you're usually good to go for the end game.


ok i get it but what is your solution? lets say we will nerf its armour to make it paper thin like su85. Its performance vs TD's wont change as they have high pen anyway, it will still be OP with KT's/tigers and makes an underused unit even less desirable but at least it will be more venerable to med tanks.

From my experience, the problem does not stem from the unit itself but when its used in combination with other tanks. jp4 + KT or su85 with ISU152's both are almost impossible to overcome.

1 solution could be armour and VET nerf (give accuracy or more damage in VET instead or nothing at all) as well as a price decrease which could make it more appealing to go for (maybe have it med truck like before), but im curious about what you think should be done.
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