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JP4 performance

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2 Oct 2021, 14:48 PM
#61
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12428 | Subs: 1


It's gonna be OP, because not only armor makes JP special FYI.

So you agree with my point that the gun is more important advantage than armor is, when it comes to su-85/jp comparison.

Now since SU-85 has such a gun and 140 armor why is cheaper than JP?

And what makes JP so much better and "special" than SU-85 in you opinion other than armor?
2 Oct 2021, 16:00 PM
#62
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 651

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 14:48 PMVipper

So you agree with my point that the gun is more important advantage than armor is, when it comes to su-85/jp comparison.

Now since SU-85 has such a gun and 140 armor why is cheaper than JP?

And what makes JP so much better and "special" than SU-85 in you opinion other than armor?

Ask balance team or an actual good player, because neither you nor me have a clue, no matter how you spin it.

You can't just pick 1 thing from a unit and say "this is why it is good", because every unit has a plethora of pros and cons over similar unit from the opposition, yet the context in which they are used may be completely different. And since you are the type of guy to bring up SU76 into JP4 discussion and then call me a liar after it, I'm gonna skip on that part.
2 Oct 2021, 16:16 PM
#63
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12428 | Subs: 1


Ask balance team or an actual good player, because neither you nor me have a clue, no matter how you spin it.

You can't just pick 1 thing from a unit and say "this is why it is good", because every unit has a plethora of pros and cons over similar unit from the opposition, yet the context in which they are used may be completely different.

It was not not a good player or the balance team that wrote:

It's gonna be OP, because not only armor makes JP special FYI.

but it was you so I am asking you.

If you do not have a clue about something, I suggest not to post about it.

And since you are the type of guy to bring up SU76 into JP4 discussion and then call me a liar after it, I'm gonna skip on that part.

Yes I did bring the SU-76 but I did not compare it to JP as you claimed.
Pip
2 Oct 2021, 16:35 PM
#64
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1557

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 16:16 PMVipper

It was not not a good player or the balance team that wrote:

but it was you so I am asking you.

If you do not have a clue about something, I suggest not to post about it.


Fire Rate, target size, Stealth, increased health total, access to HEAT rounds, existence within a faction that also has the Panther, etc. There are clearly things that the JPIV has over the SU-85, pretending you don't know is a little daft.
2 Oct 2021, 17:11 PM
#65
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12428 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 16:35 PMPip


Fire Rate,...

The the great 0.65 sec ROF difference in casemate (falling to 0.025 at vet 3) that will probable have to rotate before firing a second time.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 16:35 PMPip

target size,

The great 1 target size difference from 17 to 18

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 16:35 PMPip

Stealth,

Which bags out the unit half the time and does fire

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 16:35 PMPip

increased health total,

Finally one thing that actually does matter

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 16:35 PMPip

access to HEAT rounds,

A doctrinal ability so that one spend munition to increase penetration that SU-85 get for free.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 16:35 PMPip

existence within a faction that also has the Panther, etc.

All the reason for JP to perform better at that cost.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 16:35 PMPip

There are clearly things that the JPIV has over the SU-85, pretending you don't know is a little daft.

And SU-85 has clearly a better gun and better mobility than JP, which basically what matter the most yet it cheaper.

Now in you opinion if all these "advantages" (in ROF/target size/extra health) of the JP where removed/replaced what would a fair price be for the JP?
Pip
2 Oct 2021, 17:31 PM
#66
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1557

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 17:11 PMVipper

A the the great 0.65 sec ROF difference in casemate (falling to 0.025 at vet 3) that will probable have to rotate before firing a second time.


The JPIV gets further reload bonuses at vet 4. The units having to rotate before firing also doesn't make the JPIV's firerate less of an advantage. You are putting more shells downrange regardless.


jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 17:11 PMVipper

A the great 1 target size difference from 17 to 18


Which is a difference of between 2-7% in terms of enemy accuracy against the vehicle. That isnt insignificant.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 17:11 PMVipper

Which bags out the unit half the time and does fire


And the other half of the time you get +25% Accuracy, Penetration, and Damage.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 17:11 PMVipper

Finally one thing that actually does matter


All of these things matter.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 17:11 PMVipper

A doctrinal ability so that one spend munition to increase penetration that SU-85 get for free.


Do me a favour and divide the numbers 800 and 1040 by 160 and 208. You may notice a startling difference in the results (Of which there will be four.)

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 17:11 PMVipper

All the reason for JP to perform better at that cost.


Because you already have a strong AT option? I'm not sure that really follows.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 17:11 PMVipper

And SU-85 has clearly a better gun and better mobility that JP which basically what matter the most yet it cheaper.


The mobility difference is far less relevant than the extra health or armour of the JP4. The SU-85s gun is also worse relative to the Jagdpanzer given Axis nondoctrinal units' higher armour. Without vet 2 the SU-85 can bounce against some axis nondoctrinal vehicles, whereas the Jagdpanzer cannot. Even after vet 2 the SU-85 can STILL bounce against vetted Panthers and Brummbar, (And obviously the KT) while the Jagdpanzer continues to pen everything and fires more quickly to boot.

It's only when you start talking about doctrinal units that the SU-85's increased pen matters.


jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 17:11 PMVipper

Now in you opinion if all these "advantages" (in ROF/target size/extra health) of the JP where removed/replaced what would a fair price be for the JP?


A: Why is "Advantages" in quotation marks? These are undeniable advantages that the JPIV has.

B: I don't see the JP requiring nerfing and the price reducing.
2 Oct 2021, 18:50 PM
#67
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12428 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 17:31 PMPip


The JPIV gets further reload bonuses at vet 4. The units having to rotate before firing also doesn't make the JPIV's firerate less of an advantage. You are putting more shells downrange regardless.

And vet 4-5 is the trade mark of OKW.

SU-85 gets x80% reload bonus at 7160 XP while JP get x90% at 8600 and need to get to 10750 to get x76.5%.

In sort having to wait 3.000 XP to get 3.5% better bonus is not as great as you trying to present it.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 17:31 PMPip

Which is a difference of between 2-7% in terms of enemy accuracy against the vehicle. That isnt insignificant.

(I will not even bother to ask how you got those numbers)
And if even there is a 2-7% difference, there about 50% chance of scoring a collision making the difference even less important.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 17:31 PMPip

And the other half of the time you get +25% Accuracy, Penetration, and Damage.

All of these things matter.

Nope, JP does not get a first strike bonus until it get to vet 5. Cloak is bugged and should generally be avoided.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 17:31 PMPip

Do me a favour and divide the numbers 800 and 1040 by 160 and 208. You may notice a startling difference in the results (Of which there will be four.)

"Heat rounds" gives 30% damage bonus (+30% penetration) and SU-85 has access to mark vehicles for 35% bonus (and cloak for +20% accuracy, +20% penetration, +25% reload speed from vet 0).

So heat are good but again not enough to justified the price difference (not that "HEAT rounds should actually have an impact on the price of JP to begin with)

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 17:31 PMPip

Because you already have a strong AT option? I'm not sure that really follows.

Yes.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 17:31 PMPip

The mobility difference is far less relevant than the extra health or armour of the JP4.

I have clearly said that penetration of the SU-85 over weight the armor.

I personally would have not issue exchanging the 160 HP for 20% penetration SU-85 gets.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 17:31 PMPip

The SU-85s gun is also worse relative to the Jagdpanzer given Axis nondoctrinal units' higher armour. Without vet 2 the SU-85 can bounce against some axis nondoctrinal vehicles, whereas the Jagdpanzer cannot. Even after vet 2 the SU-85 can STILL bounce against vetted Panthers and Brummbar, (And obviously the KT) while the Jagdpanzer continues to pen everything and fires more quickly to boot.

It's only when you start talking about doctrinal units that the SU-85's increased pen matters.

Simply false JP bounce on Comet/Churchills and doctrinal unit are used allot.

If some is facing allied mediums one is better of building an PzIV j that is cheaper, can counter them and has great AI.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 17:31 PMPip


A: Why is "Advantages" in quotation marks? These are undeniable advantages that the JPIV has.

B: I don't see the JP requiring nerfing and the price reducing.

So you do not want to answer simple question.
2 Oct 2021, 18:55 PM
#68
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3249 | Subs: 1

Ahh yes the su85s patented mobility. It's basically a formula 1 car turned assault gun

"The mobility difference is relevant but the survivability difference isn't important."

BS on a whole other level, it's truly something else
2 Oct 2021, 19:00 PM
#69
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12428 | Subs: 1

Ahh yes the su85s patented mobility. It's basically a formula 1 car turned assault gun

"The mobility difference is relevant but the survivability difference isn't important."

I have not posted anything close to that sentence.

BS on a whole other level, it's truly something else

so it seems
2 Oct 2021, 19:08 PM
#70
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3249 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 19:00 PMVipper

I have not posted anything close to that sentence.

Yeah okay...

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2021, 21:18 PMVipper

Main difference here is that SU-85 counter heavy armor with higher armor much better and here is the comparison:

JP vs SU-85

Cost
400mp/135 fuel vs 350mp/130 point goes to SU-85 for being cheaper both in fuel and manpower

Pop
15/15 point foes to Su-85 since it can counter unit with higher pop better (heavy armored tanks)

Penetration
200/185/170 vs 240/230/220 point goes to Su-85

mobility
Speed: 5.5/Accel: 1.9/Rotate: 20 vs speed: 5.7/Accel: 2.1/Rotate: 22 Point goes to SU-85


ROF
5 vs 5.65 point goes to JP

XP value
2150/4300/8600/10750/14298 vs 1790/3580/7160 point goes to SU-85

Now as I pointed out the main thing JP over SU-85 is durability which does not really mean that much.


JP is good at keeping other TD at distance but that is about it.


You felt the need to point out a difference of .2 speed and accel/decel, and 2 rotation rate

Yet when it comes to armor, target size, and extra health with vet, you just mention it on the side and try to downplay it's importance

2 Oct 2021, 19:48 PM
#71
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12428 | Subs: 1


Yeah okay...


You felt the need to point out a difference of .2 speed and accel/decel, and 2 rotation rate


A whole list of difference from which you cherry picked 2 random things has nothing to do with your sentence:
"The mobility difference is relevant but the survivability difference isn't important."






2 Oct 2021, 19:56 PM
#72
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3249 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 19:48 PMVipper

A whole list of difference from which you cherry picked 2 random things has nothing to do with your sentence:
"The mobility difference is relevant but the survivability difference isn't important."

Uhhh it has everything to do with that sentence

You clearly thought the mobility difference was relevant, since you listed it and provided the numbers

Then you just skipped the durability cause "it does not really mean that much", which is total nonsense
2 Oct 2021, 20:26 PM
#73
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12428 | Subs: 1


Uhhh it has everything to do with that sentence

You clearly thought the mobility difference was relevant, since you listed it and provided the numbers

Then you just skipped the durability cause "it does not really mean that much", which is total nonsense

Ok it obvious that you are trying to pick up a fight and I am not interested so I stop here.
2 Oct 2021, 20:35 PM
#74
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3249 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 20:26 PMVipper

Ok it obvious that you are trying to pick up a fight and I am not interested so I stop here.

It's called disagreeing. I made it very clear which point I disagree with

And I'm clearly not the only one who disagrees, but call it whatever you want
Pip
2 Oct 2021, 21:31 PM
#75
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1557

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 18:50 PMVipper

And vet 4-5 is the trade mark of OKW.

SU-85 gets x80% reload bonus at 7160 XP while JP get x90% at 8600 and need to get to 10750 to get x76.5%.

In sort having to wait 3.000 XP to get 3.5% better bonus is not as great as you trying to present it.


At vet 3 the SU-85 has a reload of 4.52. The Jagdpanzer has 4.50 at vet 3. When reaching its second set of reload reductions it now has a reload rate of 3.825.

Trying to reduce this to a benefit of "3.5%" is really childish. You know perfectly well that the Jagdpanzer having a 23.5% reduction in reload rate is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than the SU-85 having 20%, and it would still be significantly advantaged if they both had the same bonus of 20% given that the Jagdpanzer has a much better reload rate to begin with. Stop arguing in bad faith.


jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 18:50 PMVipper

(I will not even bother to ask how you got those numbers)
And if even there is a 2-7% difference, there about 50% chance of scoring a collision making the difference even less important.


Weapon accuracy * target size. Feel free to describe how you got this "50%" figure.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 18:50 PMVipper

Nope, JP does not get a first strike bonus until it get to vet 5. Cloak is bugged and should generally be avoided.


I'm aware that it doesn't get it until vet 5, though you didn't provide any context to your assertion that it "bags out the unit half the time and does fire[sic]" either.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 18:50 PMVipper

"Heat rounds" gives 30% damage bonus (+30% penetration) and SU-85 has access to mark vehicles for 35% bonus (and cloak for +20% accuracy, +20% penetration, +25% reload speed from vet 0).

So heat are good but again not enough to justified the price difference (not that "HEAT rounds should actually have an impact on the price of JP to begin with)


You mean "Or". Mark Vehicle and tank cloaking are not in the same commander, you don't get both at once.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 18:50 PMVipper

I have clearly said that penetration of the SU-85 over weight the armor.

I personally would have not issue exchanging the 160 HP for 20% penetration SU-85 gets.


You're welcome to have no issue with whatever you want. It doesn't mean anyone else has to agree though. Would the JP be keeping its significantly better reload rate if it gains additional penetration as well?


jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 18:50 PMVipper

Simply false JP bounce on Comet/Churchills and doctrinal unit are used allot.


Yes, fine. I was talking in terms of just the soviets, but didn't actually specify. The comet and churchill exist in one of three potential factions, however, whereas both axis factions have nondoctrinal

Plenty of doctrines are used that do not feature heavy tanks, whereas stock units are always available.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 18:50 PMVipper

If some is facing allied mediums one is better of building an PzIV j that is cheaper, can counter them and has great AI.


The P4 costs 20 less MP but 5 more fuel. It isnt strictly "cheaper". This is also pointlessly reductive.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 18:50 PMVipper

So you do not want to answer simple question.


I gave you an answer.
2 Oct 2021, 22:32 PM
#77
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12428 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 21:31 PMPip


At vet 3 the SU-85 has a reload of 4.52. The Jagdpanzer has 4.50 at vet 3. When reaching its second set of reload reductions it now has a reload rate of 3.825.

Trying to reduce this to a benefit of "3.5%" is really childish. You know perfectly well that the Jagdpanzer having a 23.5% reduction in reload rate is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than the SU-85 having 20%, and it would still be significantly advantaged if they both had the same bonus of 20% given that the Jagdpanzer has a much better reload rate to begin with. Stop arguing in bad faith.

And as I have pointed out SU-85 get the a better reload bonus earlier. So unless it very long game it does not really matter.

Things are simple JP has slight reload bonus at vet 0 that become non significant by vet 3 which SU-85 can reach earlier. When and if the JP manages to get to vet 4 it get a reload advantage and that is according to original OKW design.

Now pls stop with the "childish" comments.


jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 21:31 PMPip

Weapon accuracy * target size. Feel free to describe how you got this "50%" figure.

You have not mention which weapons thou.

The chance of collision hit an estimation from my part.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 21:31 PMPip

I'm aware that it doesn't get it until vet 5, though you didn't provide any context to your assertion that it "bags out the unit half the time and does fire[sic]" either.

If you are aware than the claim that a JP "and the other half of the time you get +25% Accuracy, Penetration, and Damage." is simply false because JPs start at vet 0 and not vet 5 and that is most games and cases does not have access to these bonuses.

Not firing when cloaked is bug and if you use the unit yourself you will see it happen.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 21:31 PMPip

You mean "Or". Mark Vehicle and tank cloaking are not in the same commander, you don't get both at once.

Ok now you simply trolling since I did not claim that there is the same commander and it is rather irrelevant.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 21:31 PMPip

You're welcome to have no issue with whatever you want. It doesn't mean anyone else has to agree though. Would the JP be keeping its significantly better reload rate if it gains additional penetration as well?

So in your opinion is swapping the 160HP for 20% a buff or nerf?

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 21:31 PMPip

Yes, fine. I was talking in terms of just the soviets, but didn't actually specify. The comet and churchill exist in one of three potential factions, however, whereas both axis factions have nondoctrinal

Plenty of doctrines are used that do not feature heavy tanks, whereas stock units are always available.

The P4 costs 20 less MP but 5 more fuel. It isnt strictly "cheaper". This is also pointlessly reductive.

Allow to rephrase if facing mediums PzIV is simply a more cost efficient solution because it can counter them and provide AI.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 21:31 PMPip

I gave you an answer.

You gave an answer to a different question than the one I asked.

So let me ask you the question that originally asked:
jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2021, 13:37 PMVipper

...
Now pls answer a simply question would you consider lowering JP4 armor to 140 while increasing its penetration 240/230/220 a buff or nerf?
...

3 Oct 2021, 12:08 PM
#80
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2538 | Subs: 2

Oh boy. Away for a good day and your thread develops like that...

Anyway, to get this back to topic.

The JP4 100% pens all Allied stock vehicles. The only exceptions are the Churchill, against which it still performs well regarding pure DPS output compared to the Panther, and the Comet, against which it can still perform okay albeit unreliable, which makes the JP4 a subpar choice compared to the Panther against Comets. These two vehicles are mutually exclusive within the same faction and don't forget: Brits are only one out of 3 Allied factions.
The next weakness are heavy tanks. Here the JP4 does a mediocre job. What it lacks compared to the Panther is stopping power and reliability. DPS wise it actually does similar or to better than the Panther vs all targets. Since the Panther can get rear shots more easily, I'll give it an edge vs heavier targets. Remember that those heavies are doctrine dependent and you'll often get a clue beforehand if your opponent can field a heavy or not. Even if you have issues against a heavy, OKW can build its own (expensive) KT, which syngergizes perfectly with the JP4.

Now comes the catch: Even the vehicles the JP4 is "bad" against cannot really threaten it. Heavies are too slow to chase it, Churchill has neither speed nor penetration, mediums have speed but no penetration. Their only chance is to get rear shots, which is the weakness of all casemates and not specific to the JP4 despite lower mobility. With the vet2 +160 HP bonus, killing it becomes even harder.

The JP4 then counters Allies' biggest strength: Their access to 60 range TDs to chip away Axis armor from afar. The JP4 counters all of them with ease. That's why it synergizes so well with the KT and Tiger.

Against it I see only one real option: You need a deep dive. In this dive you'll probably lose at least one medium for it unless the OKW player has not set up any defense. Worst case scenario, you trade down about 25 fuel and a bit of MP. But you have a very good chance of trading up, especially if you planted 1-2 mines on the most obvious paths. After vet2, you'll probably not lose your JP4 and even if, it is hard to trade down.


Now, to end this:
The reason I think the JP4 is not used as often is that your first vehicle is usually the P4. Afterwards, the Panther synergizes better with the mobility of the P4 to create pushes together.
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