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JP4 performance

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29 Sep 2021, 21:29 PM
#21
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
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Posts: 4145 | Subs: 3

It's good at bullying TDs and can work vs mediums, but mediums is a double edged sword since they can flank you. I wouldn't use it vs heavies because of the low pen (mitigated by HEAT) and it can chase as well as an SU-85, so not at all. The panther is a safer choice and more forgiving.

Vet 5 = still useless

FF can kill jp4 in ~11-12 seconds. I abuse the hell out of JP4s with FFs when I see OKW players dumb enough to buy them.
29 Sep 2021, 22:28 PM
#22
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2229 | Subs: 1

29 Sep 2021, 23:11 PM
#23
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

you can have it if we get the SU85 instead


First of all: Who is we? Playing axis only?

Secondly: A swap would make no sense since both TDs matching the targets they will face mostly. SU-85 has to fight high armor targets pretty early on, a normal PZIV has 180 armor already, not speaking aboout PZIV J or Panther/Brummbar. SU-85 has less RoF than JP4 but higher penetration.
The JP4 faces a lot of lower armoured allied medium tanks and TDs where it needs less penetration. It trades peentration vs RoF to deal more dps.

So both TDs fill there niche, both would make less sense if you would swap them.
29 Sep 2021, 23:56 PM
#24
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13376 | Subs: 1



First of all: Who is we? Playing axis only?

Secondly: A swap would make no sense since both TDs matching the targets they will face mostly. SU-85 has to fight high armor targets pretty early on, a normal PZIV has 180 armor already, not speaking aboout PZIV J or Panther/Brummbar. SU-85 has less RoF than JP4 but higher penetration.
The JP4 faces a lot of lower armoured allied medium tanks and TDs where it needs less penetration. It trades peentration vs RoF to deal more dps.

So both TDs fill there niche, both would make less sense if you would swap them.

You analysis does not make sense.
Both JP and SU-85 can penetrate mediums with 100% chance, only SU-85 can also penetrate heavily armored vehicles.

As for the reload advantage (0.65 sec) it's simply not that important, SU-85 mobility advantage is more important.

Su-85 is simply a more cost efficient TD, its cheaper and it has a better gun.

30 Sep 2021, 01:17 AM
#25
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3386 | Subs: 1


Vet III to vet III, your size doesn't really matter (unless FoW) and everyones' TDs gets hits. Imho it's exchanged pen/dmg vet bonuses for (hp) and later arriving acc/rel.

The size matters more against medium tanks trying to push it, which is why I don't understand the armor. Cause that also effects medium tanks more than TDs. TDs for the most part won't have too much of a problem with either of those

It's far from an OP trait, and if the game actually had side armor I probably wouldn't even be talking about it
30 Sep 2021, 01:23 AM
#26
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 898


The size matters more against medium tanks trying to push it, which is why I don't understand the armor. Cause that also effects medium tanks more than TDs. TDs for the most part won't have too much of a problem with either of those

It's far from an OP trait, and if the game actually had side armor I probably wouldn't even be talking about it

I could only speculate that this makes up for its virtually 0 sight radius outside the forward 140 degree arc. Sneaking up on it, esp if overstretching, is a very real possibility.

30 Sep 2021, 08:23 AM
#27
avatar of Hannibal
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I could only speculate that this makes up for its virtually 0 sight radius outside the forward 140 degree arc. Sneaking up on it, esp if overstretching, is a very real possibility.

There is usually infantry behind the JP4 to make up for that lack of vision. If an enemy approaches from outside the cone, any casemate would have a big problem. I personally never had issues with the sight cone and rather saw the 45 vision range as a nice bonus

It's good at bullying TDs and can work vs mediums, but mediums is a double edged sword since they can flank you. I wouldn't use it vs heavies because of the low pen (mitigated by HEAT) and it can chase as well as an SU-85, so not at all. The panther is a safer choice and more forgiving.

Vet 5 = still useless

FF can kill jp4 in ~11-12 seconds. I abuse the hell out of JP4s with FFs when I see OKW players dumb enough to buy them.

Again, that is my point: Unless your opponent will get a heavy (Although not ideal, you can even deal with a Pershing and Comet decently well, the biggest problem are the Soviet heavies which are not played that often from what I see), your JP4 will do just about anything it needs to.

The kill time also only applies if the JP4 is not vet2 yet or you hit both Tulips. It's not impossible, but it also works the other way around: a JP4 will finish a Firefly (or any Allied TD) within 12-15 seconds, depending on vet and assuming all shots hit (which you did as well).
30 Sep 2021, 08:47 AM
#28
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2114 | Subs: 2

Perhaps this is my subjective opinion. JP4 is great, but its main lack is terrible path finding. And the JP4 and SU-85 begin to spin in place when I give them a direct order to move in reverse.
30 Sep 2021, 11:48 AM
#29
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

Great unit, only thing holding it back is the horrible moving accuracy + scatter which causes it to miss a lot directly after turning. It's just really undervalued because people are used to spamming Panthers.

I wouldn't say it's OP, imo it's only a bit problematic on laney maps in combination with a Tiger I or II or other (super)heavies because it counters the Allied TDs so well. And HEAT shells make it borderline OP, but at least that commander is munitions heavy enough that you generally can't spam that ability all the time.
30 Sep 2021, 12:49 PM
#30
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2936 | Subs: 2

Great unit, only thing holding it back is the horrible moving accuracy + scatter which causes it to miss a lot directly after turning. It's just really undervalued because people are used to spamming Panthers.

I thought about mentioning this, then decided against it for brevity but now that you mention it... I had a thought about fixing this: Afaik rotating does not count as movement, so normal accuracy should apply. I also remember that someone once "quantified" here on the forum that casemates more often miss their first shot if they have to turn into the enemy. This makes me assume that the problem stems from the casemate already shooting when only the edge of the opponent is in front of it, meaning that scatter shots have a higher chance to miss.
In this case, a fix could be to move 0.125s from reload to fire aim time. This would lead to casemates turning another 2-3° before firing, thereby being more centered towards their target (with minor side effects to responsiveness and reload veterancy).
30 Sep 2021, 15:52 PM
#31
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

Turning counts as moving, that is why they miss so often after turning to face a target because the gun (using gun traverse) already acquires the target and fires before the hull comes to a stop. It's less noticeable on the SU-85 because it has low scatter. JP4 is horrible though because it has high scatter.

Miragefla tried a bunch of fixes but nothing was really satisfying. The SU-76 got 0.75 moving accuracy to partially remedy this, but that would've been too much of a buff to the others.
30 Sep 2021, 16:14 PM
#32
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 725

Im suprised more players dont use the jp4 but smart players always do. It hard counters allied tds while still doing its just as a TD just as effective as allied tds. Plus considering they nerfed the FF to crap a while back and s small nerf to jackson.

Its its dissapearing camo shit that bothers me
30 Sep 2021, 16:25 PM
#33
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2936 | Subs: 2

Turning counts as moving, that is why they miss so often after turning to face a target because the gun (using gun traverse) already acquires the target and fires before the hull comes to a stop. It's less noticeable on the SU-85 because it has low scatter. JP4 is horrible though because it has high scatter.

Miragefla tried a bunch of fixes but nothing was really satisfying. The SU-76 got 0.75 moving accuracy to partially remedy this, but that would've been too much of a buff to the others.

Thanks for the info.

I'll try if the fire aim time increase could work out overall. Technically, the JP4 should rotate 5° within 0.25 secs, which should match the fire cone angle. Technically, it should stop turning at this point.
Vaz
30 Sep 2021, 18:49 PM
#34
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1146

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2021, 21:18 PMVipper

Main difference here is that SU-85 counter heavy armor with higher armor much better and here is the comparison:

JP vs SU-85

Cost
400mp/135 fuel vs 350mp/130 point goes to SU-85 for being cheaper both in fuel and manpower

Pop
15/15 point foes to Su-85 since it can counter unit with higher pop better (heavy armored tanks)

Penetration
200/185/170 vs 240/230/220 point goes to Su-85

mobility
Speed: 5.5/Accel: 1.9/Rotate: 20 vs speed: 5.7/Accel: 2.1/Rotate: 22 Point goes to SU-85

ROF
5 vs 5.65 point goes to JP

XP value
2150/4300/8600/10750/14298 vs 1790/3580/7160 point goes to SU-85

Now as I pointed out the main thing JP over SU-85 is durability which does not really mean that much.

JP is good at keeping other TD at distance but that is about it.



In team games durability is game deciding. It's the primary reason why people play better in larger games with axis. You can screw up or play sloppy and due to the durability, not get destroyed.
30 Sep 2021, 21:38 PM
#35
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 725

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2021, 21:18 PMVipper

Main difference here is that SU-85 counter heavy armor with higher armor much better and here is the comparison:

JP vs SU-85

Cost
400mp/135 fuel vs 350mp/130 point goes to SU-85 for being cheaper both in fuel and manpower

Pop
15/15 point foes to Su-85 since it can counter unit with higher pop better (heavy armored tanks)

Penetration
200/185/170 vs 240/230/220 point goes to Su-85

mobility
Speed: 5.5/Accel: 1.9/Rotate: 20 vs speed: 5.7/Accel: 2.1/Rotate: 22 Point goes to SU-85

ROF
5 vs 5.65 point goes to JP

XP value
2150/4300/8600/10750/14298 vs 1790/3580/7160 point goes to SU-85

Now as I pointed out the main thing JP over SU-85 is durability which does not really mean that much.

JP is good at keeping other TD at distance but that is about it.



last I knew su85 vet was kinda shit and jp4s was rather good...
30 Sep 2021, 21:53 PM
#36
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 767

JP4 can pen 100% of stock USF and SOV armor.
has high vision (45).
has increased survivability with vet and low target size.
can use camo
It is absolutely bonkers with Heat rounds.

But Panther still overshadows JP4 in any situation, but TD hunting.
30 Sep 2021, 22:03 PM
#37
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13376 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2021, 18:49 PMVaz


In team games durability is game deciding. It's the primary reason why people play better in larger games with axis. You can screw up or play sloppy and due to the durability, not get destroyed.

Great lets "nerf" it then and adjust the other stat accordingly. Lets lower its armor to 140 and the price to 320/110, pop 12 and XP value 1600.

And pls fix the camo, the unit does not fire half the time it is cloaked.
30 Sep 2021, 23:05 PM
#38
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Sep 2021, 23:56 PMVipper

You analysis does not make sense.
Both JP and SU-85 can penetrate mediums with 100% chance...


That is simply not true since TDs will shoot at long distance most of the time and Su-85 won't penetrate OKW PZIV at 100%. In addition SU-85 has to face nondoctrinal Brummbar (Ostheer), Panther (both axis factions) and Kingtiger (OKW) on a more regular basis than a JPIV has to face nondoctrinal Churchill/Comet (UKF = least played faction).

And btw if JPIV and SU85 are shooting at each other a 0.65 reload difference is worlds apart.

I would say your answer to my analysis simply does not make sense.

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2021, 22:03 PMVipper

Great lets "nerf" it then and adjust the other stat accordingly. Lets lower its armor to 140 and the price to 320/110, pop 12 and XP value 1600.


We have nothing left to answer anymore if you keep contradicting yourself. At #19 you said :

Vipper: Now as I pointed out the main thing JP over SU-85 is durability which does not really mean that much

Why should the cost/population be decreased that much in reaction to the decrease of its armour if its durability does not really mean that much? That are your words. Please decide which way you want to argue.

30 Sep 2021, 23:49 PM
#39
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13376 | Subs: 1



That is simply not true since TDs will shoot at long distance most of the time and Su-85 won't penetrate OKW PZIV at 100%. In addition SU-85 has to face nondoctrinal Brummbar (Ostheer), Panther (both axis factions) and Kingtiger (OKW) on a more regular basis than a JPIV has to face nondoctrinal Churchill/Comet (UKF = least played faction).

In sort SU-85 is more cost efficient TD, which is exactly my point.


And btw if JPIV and SU85 are shooting at each other a 0.65 reload difference is worlds apart.

I would say your answer to my analysis simply does not make sense.



We have nothing left to answer anymore if you keep contradicting yourself. At #19 you said :

Vipper: Now as I pointed out the main thing JP over SU-85 is durability which does not really mean that much

Why should the cost/population be decreased that much in reaction to the decrease of its armour if its durability does not really mean that much? That are your words. Please decide which way you want to argue.


I am simply replaying to Vas according to who:

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2021, 18:49 PMVaz


In team games durability is game deciding. It's the primary reason why people play better in larger games with axis. You can screw up or play sloppy and due to the durability, not get destroyed.

now you either agree with Vas and you then you should have no issue with proposed changes of "nerfing" JP4.
or
you agree with me that JP4 durability does not mean much:

most other TDs can penetrate it frontally, and most medium tank can flank and penetrate it rear armor.

Now pls stop trying to find imaginary contradictions and check that:
jump backJump back to quoted post30 Sep 2021, 22:03 PMVipper

Great lets "nerf" it then and adjust the other stat accordingly. ...

nerf is quotation marks indicating that it dubious.
MMX
1 Oct 2021, 04:09 AM
#40
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1


Thanks for the info.

I'll try if the fire aim time increase could work out overall. Technically, the JP4 should rotate 5° within 0.25 secs, which should match the fire cone angle. Technically, it should stop turning at this point.



I remember this came up quite a while ago and I did some tests with increased aim time. If my memory serves me right this works excactly as advertized by forcing a tiny stop before shooting, hence the accuracy and scatter penalties won't apply as you suggested. However, there was some problem with this approach... not sure what exactly but I think it kind of screwed up the ability to track moving targets at the very edge of the tracking cone.

Anyway, I'd be very interested if you can make it work
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