Login

russian armor

Why is the Pak 43 allowed to shoot through obstacles?

16 Sep 2021, 05:39 AM
#41
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 541



You don't even need to rely on scatter shots. Both 17pdr and pak43 have 80 range, which is enough


Ah yes you are correct.



Axis is easy, I didnt play as them because they are easy, lost most games with them because I never played as them and dont know how to play as them, but they are easy, if I actually knew how to play as them I would have been rank 20 because of how easy they are. :bananadance:



I've been doing it wrong the whole time, ggwp
16 Sep 2021, 05:59 AM
#42
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 812 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Sep 2021, 05:01 AMVaz
Well, that's a little strange to say. You do have to play a few rounds before you get players that will actually challenge you. I have the same opinion, but I've played axis games and they were a snooze fest, especially team games. I had several games where I literally did nothing and my teamates all bezerked out 3v4 and succeeded. When faced with strong adversity my teamates will hang in there as axis. As allies, they quit quick. Talking about randoms here. If allies was easy, I'd play axis, like I did in coh1. I like the challenge.


To be fair here in 3v3\4v4 allies players are usually complete apes. While there are terminal stages of stupidity on axis side aswell, for allies its much more dangerous to be a retard.

My formula is:
Total noob axis vs total noob allies - Determened by who is more retarded
Noob axis vs noob allies - in Axis favor
Mediocre axis vs mediocre Allies - more or less fair, slightly in axis favor
Good Axis vs good Allies - more or less fair, slightly in Allies favor
Pro Axis vs Pro Allies - in Allies favor

Right now, at least from my experience of 3v3\4v4 you dont have any challenges as Axis untill you hit like rank 14 in 3v3\4v4. But it still mostly determened by who you got as a teammate, so at rank 16-17 you will start facing good allies who can play the game.
Vaz
16 Sep 2021, 06:46 AM
#43
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1139

I think that's a pretty fair assessment. I think an overhaul of the matching system would actual make it easier for us to determine where there are balance issues.

The current system is making a lot of messed up matches(this can be proven and was recently when a user posted his matchups with user ranks). The system should not be mixing people with such disparity in rank. I understand how they can think it's fair on a mathematical level, where you make sure the sum of the ranks of each team are close and award points based on the disparity. However, there should be a limit in this disparity. The current allowance is way too great and makes impossible games. From the above formula, mixing a good player with a 3 people in the total noob category to go against a team of 4 in the mediocre category does not make a fair game. It makes for very frustrating experiences.

I would say up until level 10, players should not be matching outside their level by more than 1 point. So no putting a level 10 player with 3 level 8. Above 10 you can start allowing more disparity because we can be confident the players at least have a deep understanding of the game and an acceptable level of micro to be able to respond to multiple encounters.

This would also solve a lot of the stupid stuff that happens in games with players that like to play like crap and blame their allies. People that like to throw games by destroying their teamates bases. I still can't forget this game where this completely useless british player was carried the whole game, which we lost, and once he got to land mattress, he ONLY made land mattress. Everyone in the game had stolen his land mattresses, it was completely stupid. These joke/noob players should be permanently stuck in the lower ranks instead of randomly getting matched with people that are being competitive.
16 Sep 2021, 07:06 AM
#44
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 812 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Sep 2021, 06:46 AMVaz
...


When I was playing axis, I got ostheer who got 5 mortars from the beggining and built nothing untill he got stug E unlocked and he started spamming them against TDs untill we lost. Or the othe guy, who we carried and he was shittalking the enemy team from the bigging ending up loosing us 400 to 100 VPS game.

And they both had like rank 14\15 with 2k games and ~50% W\L ratio.

Whole MM system in CoH2 is flawed. Ideally any RTS game should have seasons, to actually remove thouse noob guys who had ranked up by usuing cheese, bugs, OP shit but when it was patched out they were left in a decent ranks to ruin the day for others.

Lets just hope, they will do it right in CoH3, because its a different topic worth its own thread discussing how shitty MM is outside 1v1 and to some extent 2v2.
16 Sep 2021, 09:42 AM
#45
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 890


Good Axis vs good Allies - more or less fair, slightly in Allies favor
Pro Axis vs Pro Allies - in Allies favor


According to coh2stats.com the winratio of the 4vs4 games played in Top200 only since mid of june (commander patch) is:

UKF: 40,7%
Soviet: 40%
USF: 45,8%

Ostheer: 55,2%
OKW: 60,1%

On which data are your arguments based on?
16 Sep 2021, 11:15 AM
#46
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1198



To be fair here in 3v3\4v4 allies players are usually complete apes. While there are terminal stages of stupidity on axis side aswell, for allies its much more dangerous to be a retard.

My formula is:
Total noob axis vs total noob allies - Determened by who is more retarded
Noob axis vs noob allies - in Axis favor
Mediocre axis vs mediocre Allies - more or less fair, slightly in axis favor
Good Axis vs good Allies - more or less fair, slightly in Allies favor
Pro Axis vs Pro Allies - in Allies favor

Right now, at least from my experience of 3v3\4v4 you dont have any challenges as Axis untill you hit like rank 14 in 3v3\4v4. But it still mostly determened by who you got as a teammate, so at rank 16-17 you will start facing good allies who can play the game.


High rank axis player will always beat high rank allies player. Soviet the hardest, USF the easiest; in teamgames. Played against rank 3 and 4 players 3 times in a row, same thing, to great effect, every time:
OKW vs USF = kubel + spios rush, great kubel control, rifles bleed and retreat.
USF vs OST = MG42 + pios spotting + 3x gren blob. On most maps that's impossible to flank, and you really need to decide whether you let RE + 2x rifles take the main heat of the blobs or you flank with RE + rifles. But that takes a great bit of time on most 3v3+ maps, not to mention that grens win long range so all you have to do is sit alongside the MG42 line.
Literally if you have skill, you should have no problems dealing with any USF player, and somewhat brit player. Soviets are another story. Seen a lot of high rank soviets playing 2x Maxim to great effect, with great control over them, shuts down OKW on lane-y maps hard, and OST to some degree.
16 Sep 2021, 15:15 PM
#47
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 364

On some maps, Pak43 is downright OP (angermunde, hill400...) if you don't have the doctrinal tools to take it down. On angremunde, buildings block almost all non vertical indirects, even when destroyed and on Hill400 it can shoot through multiple layers of ground/obstacles/tree-lines. On other, wider and more open maps, it's completely useless. Mostly it's a problem of lacking stock units that can take it out. For the 17pdr, OKW has the flame stuka which will kill it even when braced I think (tightrope showed it if I'm not mistaken), and OST has the werfer which will either kill it or severely damage it if the brace is activated before the volley (let's be honest, nobody is going to activate brace for werfer, you'll be busy moving your units).

One also has to take into consideration the following:
17pdr is a building, and as such has a large area that when damaged, will destroy the building and the gun. Pak43 is a big ass gun that can be decrewed. So shooting at a pak43 with... let's say pak howi barrage, you may or may not decrew it, depending on the scatter luck. Shooting at a 17pdr with a ISG: Every barraging shell will damage it and once it's gone, the whole gun is gone.

I think this is one aspect to take into consideration. For pak43 you need pinpoint accuracy, but no brace and can be decrewed, for 17pdr you don't need any of that, but brace is there to help out (which means engies will be on repair duty).

I'd make both 17pdr and pak43 pretty much identical in survivabiltiy/firepower and remove the wallhack completely.
For uniqueness, you can add abilities or w/e to those guns. Pak43 could have piercing shot, 17pdr could have HE shot or whatever.


I see nothing to disagree with here.
16 Sep 2021, 17:37 PM
#48
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 812 | Subs: 1


On which data are your arguments based on?

Its not data and its not an arguments, its my subjective opinion based on my game understanding and possabilities factions have in early\mid\late game and how they can use them to snowball.

Random allies are harder alright. But for people who actually know how to play as allies and when they are not matched with idiots its a completly different story. Axis is easier with randoms its a known fact, and pretty much easily noticable via win rates.


...

I wasnt speaking about ranks specifically, but about player skill in general. Ranks rarely means anything, unless its like rank 18-19, anything below can contain complete shitheads who just bruteforced their rank.

I cant speak much about 3v3, dispite being 3v3 fanboy for a while. After that I gave 4v4 a try and decided to stuck with it, because 3v3 is objectively shit. Starting from the shit maps, ending up with how unpredictable it is.

But speaking of USF, just give a pathfinder spam a go, at least in 4v4.
vs OKW you can go even 3 PFs into agressive ambu and just push OKW off, since it wont be able to do anything to you.
vs Ost get 2 PFs - 1 mortar into agressive ambu. Spot MG with PFs and bomb the hell out of it or smoke it, ones you get your ambu ost wont be able to out-gun you with grens.

This is how all top USF players play pretty much, full rifles stats are either requare really good micro or really good teammate coordination to be effective, considering players are equally skilled.
16 Sep 2021, 18:58 PM
#49
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1198


Its not data and its not an arguments, its my subjective opinion based on my game understanding and possabilities factions have in early\mid\late game and how they can use them to snowball.

Random allies are harder alright. But for people who actually know how to play as allies and when they are not matched with idiots its a completly different story. Axis is easier with randoms its a known fact, and pretty much easily noticable via win rates.


I wasnt speaking about ranks specifically, but about player skill in general. Ranks rarely means anything, unless its like rank 18-19, anything below can contain complete shitheads who just bruteforced their rank.

I cant speak much about 3v3, dispite being 3v3 fanboy for a while. After that I gave 4v4 a try and decided to stuck with it, because 3v3 is objectively shit. Starting from the shit maps, ending up with how unpredictable it is.

But speaking of USF, just give a pathfinder spam a go, at least in 4v4.
vs OKW you can go even 3 PFs into agressive ambu and just push OKW off, since it wont be able to do anything to you.
vs Ost get 2 PFs - 1 mortar into agressive ambu. Spot MG with PFs and bomb the hell out of it or smoke it, ones you get your ambu ost wont be able to out-gun you with grens.

This is how all top USF players play pretty much, full rifles stats are either requare really good micro or really good teammate coordination to be effective, considering players are equally skilled.



And what if you don't want to go into that cheese USF strat? I mean, you're not wrong, it's all I see these days in 3v3. OST completely locking out one part of the map with 42 sight pios and a mega arc MG42. Rifle builds run into a hell of a lot micro as you really need to decide on the spot: Which route will you take, and with grens having high damage rifles (16dmg), if luck is not on your side, they can down a model in a second on approach. That of course does not happen in 1v1 as you have the whole map to explore, not just one lane, and ofc you can't really cut through some other lane as you'll get shot at by the other enemy. USF is pretty dead in 3v3 but still...

Your strats with the mortar run into one problem, poor scaling, but again, you don't want to go even into a late mid game as USF.
Still this is not the point of this thread, I've made my case and I've laid out the arguments so I'll leave it at this
16 Sep 2021, 22:03 PM
#50
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 592

can 17 pounder shoot through things at the same level as pak 43? it really should be taken out the game tho.
16 Sep 2021, 22:04 PM
#51
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 592

can 17 pounder shoot through things at the same level as pak 43? it really should be taken out the game tho.
16 Sep 2021, 22:37 PM
#52
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 334

can 17 pounder shoot through things at the same level as pak 43? it really should be taken out the game tho.

no, 17pdr cant shoot through terrain but has increased durability to compensate
16 Sep 2021, 22:43 PM
#53
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 890


Its not data and its not an arguments, its my subjective opinion based on my game understanding and possabilities factions have in early\mid\late game and how they can use them to snowball.

Thx for clearing that up. The data about pro games differs from your perception. Its a 20% gap at Top200 players only between UKF/Soviet and OKW. USF and Ostheer are a little bit closer. Just saying.

Random allies are harder alright. But for people who actually know how to play as allies and when they are not matched with idiots its a completly different story. Axis is easier with randoms its a known fact, and pretty much easily noticable via win rates.

I'm absolutely with you about winrates and allied beeing harder to play with randoms. The problem is that it doesn't change at top level play at least for random games. The stats I posted were from all players beeing located in Top200. They should know how to play the game and you still have that 20% gap. Imo that is too much of a difference by far to call the game anyhow balanced.

But speaking of USF, just give a pathfinder spam a go, at least in 4v4.
vs OKW you can go even 3 PFs into agressive ambu and just push OKW off, since it wont be able to do anything to you.

Vs USF I usually go with starting Spios + multiple Kubels since USF not really can do something against it. I wish you a lot of fun with PFs, this will bleed you hard right from the beginning.
16 Sep 2021, 23:10 PM
#54
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2051 | Subs: 1

who would win?



or

Pip
16 Sep 2021, 23:13 PM
#55
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1557

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Sep 2021, 22:37 PMKatukov

no, 17pdr cant shoot through terrain but has increased durability to compensate


It can't with its autoattack, but the 17 pounder does have a world-piercing ability.
16 Sep 2021, 23:55 PM
#56
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 890

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Sep 2021, 23:13 PMPip


It can't with its autoattack, but the 17 pounder does have a world-piercing ability.


But that ability makes no sense because you won't build your immobile 17pdr behind a shoot-blocker to only use this ability from then on for 60mu each time you use it. You'll always build it with open shooting field.

It would be a whole different thing if a mobile 17pdr would have this ability.
17 Sep 2021, 00:19 AM
#57
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12448 | Subs: 1



But that ability makes no sense because you won't build your immobile 17pdr behind a shoot-blocker to only use this ability from then on for 60mu each time you use it. You'll always build it with open shooting field.

It would be a whole different thing if a mobile 17pdr would have this ability.

The important thing you can clear most fields with a free ability from Ro.eng and that is a big difference.

Destroy cover allow both easier placement and line of fire.
17 Sep 2021, 11:27 AM
#58
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 193

Like Protos said, using rifleman against superiror Axis early is kinda mirco instentive. That why PF spam come to play.
Does PF OPies ? I dont think so, Just because USF hardly win early game as normal build.
back to 17 dpr vs 88 pak. Shooting through Shortblocker is big Win, you can do it with every match. Not to mention supprise elements.
Pip
17 Sep 2021, 12:59 PM
#59
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1557



But that ability makes no sense because you won't build your immobile 17pdr behind a shoot-blocker to only use this ability from then on for 60mu each time you use it. You'll always build it with open shooting field.

It would be a whole different thing if a mobile 17pdr would have this ability.


There are still likely to be shotblockers in range of your 17-pounder. Oftentimes you'd want to ensure that there are, as it reduces the area the 17-pounder will need to overwatch. The ability is generally there so you can still fire through those shotblockers if you really need to.

The other part, as Vipper has stated, is that UKF have the default ability to just delete many shotblockers, so world piercing is even less important.
17 Sep 2021, 13:07 PM
#60
avatar of vgfgff

Posts: 177

In fact. 17 pounder emplacement are easier to destroy than pak43.
Why?
here a reason
1. It is an emplacement so it come with larger hitbox.
2. if use flame, it deal a lot of damage to emplacement but less or none damage to decrew weapon.
- in this case. pak43 might get decrew but 17 pounder are turn to dust.
3. It need to place in wide area so It can be get kill by infantry or antitank gun while pak 43 can't be counter with AT because it set behind building.

A solution is
make pak43 to be an emplacement like 17 pounder or make 17 pounder same as pak43.
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest
ML Scorched Earth 2

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

Board Info

72 users are online: 4 members and 68 guests
Spanky, JibberJabberJobber, Antilles950, Siberian
112 posts in the last 24h
450 posts in the last week
1539 posts in the last month
Registered members: 27173
Welcome our newest member, brockmoses
Most online: 1221 users on 25 Feb 2020, 12:03 PM