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russian armor

USA scotts (M8A1)

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13 Sep 2021, 12:03 PM
#101
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3233 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2021, 10:00 AMVipper

Not having the "proper tool" is not design flaw but a deliberate decision taken by Relic that wanted USF to depend on riflemen.

If one decides to give USF the "proper tools", one would also have redesigned them and remove their perks.

Such as removing smoke from riflemen...?

"This is how they were designed" is not a great argument when the patches have been consistently changing that design from day 1
13 Sep 2021, 12:12 PM
#102
avatar of Eisernes Kreuz

Posts: 4

M8A1 is barely paying for it. USF's core armored power is Sherman and Jackson not M8A1.

Even in the ongoing patch M8A1 reduces the range of auto-attack and increases the reliance on barrage skills just because it is not suitable for the role of an 'Artillery unit'.

In order to give M8A1 a different role or adjust its performance it will be necessary to give new skills according to the commander choice or speed up the timing of the unit's appearance.
13 Sep 2021, 12:37 PM
#103
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 785 | Subs: 1

Scott is rarely seen not because it performs bad, for its price it performs quite well, but not for its timing.

Thing is, if USF need indirect unit, chances are that he will need much-much earlier then scott is even awaible are quite high. And if you went 1 or even 2 PaK howis you dont really need Scott thrown into the mix

Right now scott is pretty much is LV in T3 trying to pretend it is a T3 unit, with all the problems this idea brings.

Also I think there is a problem with USF tier unit distribution.

Since its too late for patches and suggestions, since we wont get any new patches, but here is what I would have done:

1) Swap M20 and Pak Howi tiers
Reason, because M20 is completly over-shadowed by stuart in 1v1 anyway and in teamgames captain tier is a jack of all trades most of the time, since LV play is very limited and access to AA HT\AT gun\Inderect is much more preferable. Over-all this just putting Scott out of need. Not to mention that having AA HT + M20 would is pretty much same 70 fuel, as you would have spend on stuart.

2) Give USF T3 OKW threatment. In other words just cut major in 2 parts. Make him cheaper, but add this price difference to an grade to fully unlock T3 with its units and forward retreat point. This also might help usf a bit in teamgames, because they will be able to vet and utilize major earlier.

3) Make Scott buildable without full T3 unlock, allowing you to get access to it earlier and balance it accorgingly to this timing and the fact that its the latest USF LV and its not part of a proper T3 roster. Since it was never ment to be really, because its either weak for T3 or overpowered for its nature.

4) Ajust pathfinders if the are problem, or change how scott operate, maybe add it hull-down option like PE P4 from vCoH had or simular to siedge mode of KV-2.
13 Sep 2021, 13:08 PM
#104
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1196

Ah yes one 4v4 team made up of mostly non 4v4 players gets rolled. Has to be a single units fault and not the team getting outplayed. Oh they have a good strategy? Pathfinders spotting for the Soviet team weapons? Yea let’s just nerf pathfinders. One of the few spotters for the Americans lol. Sounds like a L2P problem.

+
13 Sep 2021, 13:30 PM
#105
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 130

Leave the Scott alone. USF already struggles in 4v4 because it's extremely limited roster. Do we really need to drag down any strategy that isn't just calliope?
If something was to be hotfixed maybe a minor change to pathfinders but for the love of god don't nerf a core unit because you think it's a problem with a specific doc.
13 Sep 2021, 13:45 PM
#106
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12262 | Subs: 1


Such as removing smoke from riflemen...?

"This is how they were designed" is not a great argument when the patches have been consistently changing that design from day 1

Not from day one but since Relic stop patching. And that is my point.

Either accept the faction design and work with it or create a new instead of band aiding.
13 Sep 2021, 13:48 PM
#107
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12262 | Subs: 1


Which it should also since it takes 25% more pop. But the StuGE is irrelevant here anyway. As already mentioned, USF does not have any other blob control unit, the Scott could and should fit this role. Unfortunately, it currently does not.


I don't know about tourney stats. If you have robust data please provide it. But even if that were the case there could plenty of explanations, since the unit is fairly cheap and non-doctrinal unlike all others. What I can tell you though is that I see a Brummbar regularly in 2v2 and 3v3 when I play Allies, but I rarely see a Scott whenever I play Axis.


I'll let this one be since it will lead way too far off topic.

If ones want's to stop blob one can fire a pakH WP barrage on their path, there is nothing in Scott that screams blob counter.
13 Sep 2021, 14:11 PM
#108
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2460 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2021, 13:48 PMVipper

If ones want's to stop blob one can fire a pakH WP barrage on their path, there is nothing in Scott that screams blob counter.

Since when is this ability considered blob control? It takes almost 10 seconds to arrive for only the first shell, 15 if your Howie needs to adjust first. That's everything BUT responsive to a blob.
Also simply screw me then if I teched Lieutenant? Or even if I did, my Pak Howie is not vet1 either yet or anymore?

That argument is made up.
13 Sep 2021, 14:44 PM
#109
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12262 | Subs: 1


Since when is this ability considered blob control? It takes almost 10 seconds to arrive for only the first shell, 15 if your Howie needs to adjust first. That's everything BUT responsive to a blob.

Since it can stop a blob it it tracks if it used correctly. If in your opinion it not easy to use maybe you should asking for it become more player friendly instead of asking for Scott to be redesigned as a crowd control unit when it mobility and tenacity already seem to create issues.



Also simply screw me then if I teched Lieutenant? Or even if I did, my Pak Howie is not vet1 either yet or anymore?

That argument is made up.

The same way one is in trouble if one does not tech T4 as Soviet or Ostheer only it cheaper to get Captain.
13 Sep 2021, 14:58 PM
#110
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3233 | Subs: 1


Since when is this ability considered blob control? It takes almost 10 seconds to arrive for only the first shell, 15 if your Howie needs to adjust first. That's everything BUT responsive to a blob

It's not. I genuinely can't believe anyone would try to argue this. Complete theorycrafting

If your blob gets consistently stopped by pak howie WP you should be uninstalling
13 Sep 2021, 16:02 PM
#111
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2460 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2021, 14:44 PMVipper

Since it can stop a blob it it tracks if it used correctly. If in your opinion it not easy to use maybe you should asking for it become more player friendly instead of asking for Scott to be redesigned as a crowd control unit when it mobility and tenacity already seem to create issues.

The same way one is in trouble if one does not tech T4 as Soviet or Ostheer only it cheaper to get Captain.

No, seriously no. If that's the level of argumentation then I'd rather stop it right here.
13 Sep 2021, 16:31 PM
#112
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12262 | Subs: 1


No, seriously no. If that's the level of argumentation then I'd rather stop it right here.


jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2021, 14:02 PMReverb


Stats in automatch for randoms gives garbage data on balance, all you can do is judge what types level of skill tends to pick which faction more.

You have to look at data for balanced matches at high level play.
Let's do that:

Last 1v1 tourney had Allies winning 100% in the final.
Currently Allies are winning at 90% in the 4v4 tourney.

Does that tell you anything? I'm sure it wont.


and from what I understand the 4vs4 was pathfinder/scott spam and that is the reason behind this thread...

And yet people seem to want to buff the scott even more because USF have "no blob control tool", in other words "other faction have rocket artillery why USF do not have one" kind of argument.
13 Sep 2021, 17:39 PM
#113
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 307

I feel like USF is the faction in this game solely balanced around 1v1 performance. The other factions have much more effective and damaging tools but it's like USF doesn't get to have any of it because of the fact that it's on a knife's edge balance wise in 1v1s.

When I used to play USF 1v1 (and I was never really that good, I got to level 14 on the leaderboard and that was the highest I got) it really felt like US was unstoppable early game. And despite the tanks being a little on the lightly armored side they were so much more useful utility wise with sherman shell switch and smoke and repair crews etc.

Forgive me for my somewhat aimless meanderings here. Basically what I want to say is that USF in teamgames is hamstrung by how it performs in 1v1s. It has to have ineffective units just because all of them working in tandem are so strong together. But this of course means that the whole army is made of weak links when it comes to teamgames where one enemy can specialize in one area (say ant infantry blobber) and just murder your army one on one.
13 Sep 2021, 19:46 PM
#114
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1792 | Subs: 1

Looking for your Opinions. Pls vote.
Cheers!

If you have other ideas, pls write them here down :)



If it's deemed that the buffed barrage is too strong then a simple change would be to lessen the barrage accuracy a bit (either standard or the Veterancy buffs). Conversely you could revert the barrage buff but add another barrage that's higher damage but higher scatter that's more area denial in nature so the Scott could have higher utility of either a low damage accurate barrage or higher damage RNG barrage. The new barrage could be gated behind Vet 1/2 if needed depending on how strong you want to make it.
13 Sep 2021, 20:32 PM
#115
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3260 | Subs: 1

The question here is if the balance team will follow what the poll says or if they're going to do what they want anyway.

I have the feeling the balance team created their own monster by constantly nerfing anything valuable on USF. Players are reduced to find whatever cheese they can do to keep up with the game path.
Scott and Pathfinder are perfectly fine on their own, Scott is even under performing by itself, but together they can do well vs players that are simply following the meta and don't try to counter it.

I've just watch a game on 2vs2 where the OKW player did exactly nothing special vs a perfectly executed Pathfinder into Scott gameplay, the player just followed its standard T1 kubel, 3 volks into 1 hmg 1 lieg then a forwarded T3 even knowing he has the vision range disadvantage, to build 2xObers.
He lost the T3 to a single atgun supported by 1 Scott and 1 AAHT but it didn't really force him to think about strategy, nope he re-built his T3 and get a command panther. By that time the USF player had 4 scott and didn't even equipped his pathfinder with zook.

Imagine buidling 4 scott and 4 pathinder, having 0 snare, mine, Atgun (was decrew/destroy) or zook or even a Jackson and your opponent still try to win you by the sheer number of his infantry supported by raks.

The command Panther lasted like 2 or 3 minutes vs Pathzook and then it was just a long agony until the surrender.

Note that even in that condition OKW player never had any manpower issue, this faction is just floating manpower like human on the dead sea.


The replay:
13 Sep 2021, 20:39 PM
#116
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 473

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2021, 10:52 AMEsxile


If something should be done, its the exact opposite. PakHowi already fulfill this role, so remove the auto-attack from the pak, increase its barrage capability then remove the barrage from the Scott and make it a auto-attack dedicated unit like the brumbar.
Scott will never work like a rocket arty unit so I don't know why to try comparing them. What Scott can do well is constant bleeding.

At the end of the day, people bitching about Scott survivability are the same having no problem with the Brumbar having the same level of it with its armor and health pool + doctrinal scope or doctrinal smoke. The same group of people having no problem with proposing and imposing double standard for Axis units and Allied ones.



Lets say for example that Whermacht had access to both the Stug and the Jagpanzer IV. Naturally people would invest into the Jagpanzer IV because of the 60 range and being a better unit making the Stug a poor Investment. Su-76 has a similar issue being outclassed by T-70 and Su-85 making it a niche non important unit that rarely gets used.

This is the case with USF. Why should the M8 Scott be a Mini Brumbar when USF already has the 105 Sherman Dozer which is exactly that.

So lets say we make the M8 Scott into a Mini Brumber what would be the point of the Sherman 105 Dozer then? You basically created a Dead Weight Commander Ability in the process making Armor Company less of an option and a weaker pick overall.

Now say we make Pak Howitzer Barrage Focused Only with no Auto Attack, that means the Barrage Would need much longer range and lethality to make up for the fact that it lost its Auto Attack or else it would be useless. This means that unless you go LEFH the Pak Howitzer would be out of reach of Stuka/Panzerwerfer and would be almost impossible to kill. This means that Axis would be forced to go LEFH every single game just to counter a basic USF unit and no one wants that.

This leads us to having no change at all and leaving USF exactly where it is. The only option we have is to make M8 Scott a barrage focused unit that is strong yet fair but strong enough so that Calliope isn't mandatory for USF every game.
13 Sep 2021, 20:44 PM
#117
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 255

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2021, 20:32 PMEsxile

I've just watch a game on 2vs2 where the OKW player did exactly nothing special vs a perfectly executed Pathfinder into Scott gameplay, the player just followed its standard T1 kubel, 3 volks into 1 hmg 1 lieg then a forwarded T3 even knowing he has the vision range disadvantage, to build 2xObers.
He lost the T3 to a single atgun supported by 1 Scott and 1 AAHT but it didn't really force him to think about strategy, nope he re-built his T3 and get a command panther. By that time the USF player had 4 scott and didn't even equipped his pathfinder with zook.

The replay:


be okw player ---> lose panzer HQ ---> get command panther and stay in the game anyway


many such cases...
13 Sep 2021, 23:52 PM
#118
avatar of AHandyDandyHotDog

Posts: 37

I really, really, really hope don't take any advice from the current community team balancing CoH2.
14 Sep 2021, 00:18 AM
#119
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 539

I really, really, really hope don't take any advice from the current community team balancing CoH2.


You need all the advice you can get.

These people have done a ton of work for free. For us. Regardless if it is imperfect.
14 Sep 2021, 00:55 AM
#120
avatar of AHandyDandyHotDog

Posts: 37

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2021, 00:18 AMKoRneY


You need all the advice you can get.

These people have done a ton of work for free. For us. Regardless if it is imperfect.


I actually feel like the game would have been better off. I don't ever remember thinking that the game was awful balance wise until the community balancers came. All that's happened after that is, "why is Axis so strong now". And it's not even subtle, its widely known how much an advantage Axis has now. I can only hope that CoH3 doesn't go down the same road. Seeing as how the have overhauled the game and it's units, maybe it won't be and the factions will finally be different but equal.
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