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USA scotts (M8A1)

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12 Sep 2021, 12:17 PM
#41
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13354 | Subs: 1



Don't think that any of the changes for pathfinder would work, or we would have to change it for all axis infs too (JLI etc)

The thing is that JLI are CP 1 that make it more difficult to spam.

Generally speaking I would try making some of these units have cloak as an ability with cd instead of a passive and that includes ostheer doctrinal camo.
(one could even expand that to moving camo part for units like commandos/ST/Partisan in order to require more decision making on the part of the player when trying to navigate the battlefield)

The XP is at pioneer level which is simply too low.

As for the elite carbines (not the scoped one)is has profile that is simply bad for the unit. It does not work well with the scoped ones since it has low far DPS while allow the unit to fight even when rushed because it has great close DPS.


You talk about the vet 1 smoke or?

I am talking about "Concealing Smoke" ability the unit has a very long range and does not really have a reason to get defensive smoke since it add to already 3 shots durability.
12 Sep 2021, 12:27 PM
#42
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5433 | Subs: 32

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2021, 12:14 PMtheekvn

as same time, Scott didn't have firepower like rocket arty. With 50 range autofire, AT gun can shot it. dont be silly.


yes and no.

- yes panzwerfer/ katy have in a short time more firepower
- no, because they have long CD, meanwhile scotts can fire all the time
- no, because sometimes you miss your katya/ panzwerfer barrage
- no, because with the barrage from scotts you can stay out of at guns range
- no, because on some maps you can shoot with scotts over LoS shot blockers, so at guns can't hit you
12 Sep 2021, 12:27 PM
#43
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1006 | Subs: 1

If anything Pathfinders can just have sight increased when in cover simular to how volks vet wolks. It would at least tone down agressive scouting and would make it harder to run and gun with them.
12 Sep 2021, 12:31 PM
#44
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5433 | Subs: 32

If anything Pathfinders can just have sight increased when in cover simular to how volks vet 5 wolks. It would at least tone down agressive scouting and would make it harder to run and gun with them.


Sounds not bad. Good view when in cover.
That would nerf the earlygame little bit, tho in larger teamgames mid and lategame its like with commanders, everywhere yellow cover thx to arty hits :D

And at this time we have the scotts on the field. So this would not really change something. Beside we say pathfinder have to stay few sec before increase view starts.
That would mean if you play defensive on a vp you still have the same but if you attack you lose some power (aka you can't chase at guns so well, but still fight very well on fuel or vps points)
12 Sep 2021, 12:37 PM
#45
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 472

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2021, 12:07 PMVipper

Imo reckon units should be support units and not fighting units.


I do agree with you.

That being said, let's not forget to nerf JLI & potentially storm troppers at the same time.
12 Sep 2021, 12:41 PM
#46
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 472

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2021, 12:17 PMVipper

The thing is that JLI are CP 1 that make it more difficult to spam.


In the end JLI or pathfinder is spammable up to 2. 3 or more is somewhat noob tactic in my taste. After all, pathfinder's raw spec is less than JLI making it vulnerable against inf. fight.

I see that scott feels that gap, but at the same time, axis then have a time to have advantage. And it's not like late-axis are suffering from raw-potential.
12 Sep 2021, 12:43 PM
#47
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 472



Sounds not bad. Good view when in cover.
That would nerf the earlygame little bit, tho in larger teamgames mid and lategame its like with commanders, everywhere yellow cover thx to arty hits :D

And at this time we have the scotts on the field. So this would not really change something. Beside we say pathfinder have to stay few sec before increase view starts.
That would mean if you play defensive on a vp you still have the same but if you attack you lose some power (aka you can't chase at guns so well, but still fight very well on fuel or vps points)


I'm just wondering, do you have problem with scott's own raw stat? Or the fact that the combination of 50 sight unit(pathfinder) + 50 range autofire is too strong to counter?

If scott's raw power is too strong in your taste,

1. Is the autofire is the problem?

2. Or the barrage is the problem?
12 Sep 2021, 12:43 PM
#48
avatar of minhuh064

Posts: 63

ez solution: Replace Scott with Calliope
12 Sep 2021, 12:46 PM
#49
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1006 | Subs: 1



Sounds not bad. Good view when in cover.
That would nerf the earlygame little bit, tho in larger teamgames mid and lategame its like with commanders, everywhere yellow cover thx to arty hits :D

And at this time we have the scotts on the field. So this would not really change something. Beside we say pathfinder have to stay few sec before increase view starts.
That would mean if you play defensive on a vp you still have the same but if you attack you lose some power (aka you can't chase at guns so well, but still fight very well on fuel or vps points)


Well if the main objective is to make agressive scouting less powefull it also can be made so if they are in combat then then lose the increase vision aswell.

Since with vet3 you have super camo and you can just keep 1 squad on hold fire. Since, even if, lets say, you need to be static with them and there are already a buch of yellow cover from explosions, nothing really stops you from just pressing S during the fights and remaining in cover gaining additional sight.
12 Sep 2021, 12:49 PM
#50
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905


- yes panzwerfer/ katy have in a short time more firepower
- no, because they have long CD, meanwhile scotts can fire all the time


And thats way better in favor of Katy / Panzwerwerfer / Calliope / Walking Stuka. Wiping a single quad is soo much better than forcing two damaged squads off in terms of MP and Vet. In the long term the game comes down to retainig your vetted squad and preventing bleeding out. Apart from some very lucky hits Scott won't wipe anything. Even multiple Scotts have a hard time on that.
In addition rocket artillery forces a lot of full retreats in teamgames, which is great at those big maps.
More damage with longer CD is overall better.
12 Sep 2021, 13:05 PM
#51
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1201

Pathfinders too strong with Scotts ? Wtf its like saying ele and 222 combo op. Some high 4v4 player was outplay by someone who use pathfiners and now we need to think how to rebalance this nice.
12 Sep 2021, 13:10 PM
#52
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1219

ez solution: Replace Scott with Calliope

+1
12 Sep 2021, 13:12 PM
#53
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1006 | Subs: 1

Pathfinders too strong with Scotts ? Wtf its like saying ele and 222 combo op


Well tecnically, you not only need to keep your 222 alive and vet it to vet3 during the game to maximise potentual vision, but also 222 dont have camo and enemy can always snipe 222 with 2 AT hits and it has to be static in order to give vision.

Its wrong comparison.
12 Sep 2021, 13:22 PM
#54
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 290

How you can snipe 222 while it has supperior vision ? It that 5000 rank ?
12 Sep 2021, 13:45 PM
#55
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 472



Well tecnically, you not only need to keep your 222 alive and vet it to vet3 during the game to maximise potentual vision,


Giving scope at vet 0 already gives 70 vision.

Vet2 + scope gives 91 vision.

So yeah... If you are micro playing it correctly, AT will never gets into the fire range(60) even at vet 0.

Or OKW can use searchlight halftrack which gives 80 vision now.
12 Sep 2021, 13:52 PM
#56
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3504 | Subs: 1



Well if the main objective is to make agressive scouting less powefull it also can be made so if they are in combat then then lose the increase vision aswell.

Since with vet3 you have super camo and you can just keep 1 squad on hold fire. Since, even if, lets say, you need to be static with them and there are already a buch of yellow cover from explosions, nothing really stops you from just pressing S during the fights and remaining in cover gaining additional sight.


So we're doing it for all infantry with superior vision? Path, Pfuss, Pioneer, JLI, Officers etc...
12 Sep 2021, 13:52 PM
#57
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1006 | Subs: 1




Yeah and if you put 222 on a safe distance you can devide this additinal range by 2. To maximase 222 range with scopes and have simular results of any inf based recon units have you have to sit on the front line with it. Or micro it away from AT guns, while with PFs you either A move forward or put them in super camo and forget.

Thats why I was saying that comparison was wrong.

12 Sep 2021, 14:02 PM
#58
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1006 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2021, 13:52 PMEsxile

So we're doing it for all infantry with superior vision? Path, Pfuss, Pioneer, JLI, Officers etc...

For JLI sure, they are simular unit.

Others are questinable at very least because most of them dont have insane vision and most importanly super cloak.

Officers are single unit awaible, pios have like +5 or so additinal range to spot for support weapons, pfuss dont know why they even have additinal range with G43.
12 Sep 2021, 14:29 PM
#59
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1499



yes and no.

- yes panzwerfer/ katy have in a short time more firepower
- no, because they have long CD, meanwhile scotts can fire all the time
- no, because sometimes you miss your katya/ panzwerfer barrage
- no, because with the barrage from scotts you can stay out of at guns range
- no, because on some maps you can shoot with scotts over LoS shot blockers, so at guns can't hit you


True, but you're overstating the "fire all the time". It can't really fire all the time. It can do so in 1v1, perhaps, but in larger modes... I don't know of a single 3v3+ map that has LoS blockers over which the Scott can shoot with ground target. Well ok, mid VP big crates on Hamburger port for one side only (top side has the wall but that's super risky due the the big road that is easy pickings).

There is a much bigger impact of wiping 2-3 squads at once with a katy/werfer/stuka than taking model by model with a scott. Mainly, because the rest of the models will do damage to whatever is there. If I fire a katy barrage on 2 obers, they will retreat instantly or risk wipe or both.
If I micro with the scott to ground target over something, micro the units to engage obers at a favorable distance, only so that the scott misses or takes out a bit of hp of the obers, they will still do damage to my squads, bleed my MP by 80+ if they're at vet2 and lose maybe one or two models of the bunch.
Sure, the katy will go on CD, but I've possibly taken out 2 obers without losing any MP. And in teamgames, the CD on katy/werfer/stuka is useless. The volume of units on a non-proportionally bigger map means you need more time to plan the attack. So yeah, there is a CD, but in 99% of cases, the CD will be gone once the threat reappears.

Scotts being able to fire all the time is only possible if you're playing against complete mor***. Most of the time, scotts are used to barrage, preferably, smoke barrage (the best feature of Scotts).

2nd point. Sometimes katy/werfer misses. In 1v1 and sometimes in 2v2. 3v3 and 4v4, never. Unless you target a specific unit. That's something that is then easy to spot and dodge. Eg. you have 3 rifles advancing on your VP enemy and you hear the salvo. You won't retreat as some people expect it, you won't advance as some people deny that, you will side-step. Same with stuka and katy.

With the barrage from Scotts you can stay out of range. Yeah, sure, you can stay out of range. You can stay out of range with every indirect weapon, except vs 17pounder/pak43. This is not something special to Scott and as such provides no argument.

Again, last point. Some maps. I seldom play 2v2, and when I do so, it's unranked so I don't know, but on 3v3+ I don't know, except for the Burger King, of any map that has LoS over which the Scott can fire more than 2 shells without being in danger (that might or might not do any dmg)
12 Sep 2021, 14:33 PM
#60
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1499



Yeah and if you put 222 on a safe distance you can devide this additinal range by 2. To maximase 222 range with scopes and have simular results of any inf based recon units have you have to sit on the front line with it. Or micro it away from AT guns, while with PFs you either A move forward or put them in super camo and forget.

Thats why I was saying that comparison was wrong.



Axis, OKW in particular should never complain about having vision problems or allies having vision OP units. Pathfinders maybe need a slight veterancy xp nerf, but other than that, they are completely normal and completely overshadowed by JLI
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