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russian armor

Should SU76 have 160 damage vet3?

13 Sep 2021, 01:12 AM
#41
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 760

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2021, 00:07 AMKatukov



What sort of fucking scaling does it have? a barrage that your 0 fuel AT gun has, and boasts basically an equal health durability with superior AT stats to boat.


So you are just going to pull an atgun from the backline? you have a very good chance that you will lose the at gun if even a single infantry units catches up with it.

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2021, 00:07 AMKatukov

80% of su-76's will not reach vet 3 and those that do should be rewarded for it, losing one, which is really fucking easy btw, means that you'll never deal with a """""160""""" damage SU-76 for the rest of that particular game


High dps with low vet requirements its very easy to get a su76 to vet 3.
13 Sep 2021, 01:25 AM
#42
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 761 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2021, 01:12 AMZyllen


So you are just going to pull an atgun from the backline? you have a very good chance that you will lose the at gun if even a single infantry units catches up with it.



High dps with low vet requirements its very easy to get a su76 to vet 3.


If your AT gun is shown on the frontline, it dies if not retreated
If your SU-76 is shown on the frontline, it dies even faster if not immediately retreated


I'd like to see you try to reliably get vet 3 su-76s, getting one is definitely doable but that still requires careful playing and micro to get to there
13 Sep 2021, 04:24 AM
#43
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1285

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2021, 00:00 AMZyllen


i disagree, 2 su76 perform way better against medium tanks then 1 su85. And people to often look to damage and not the firing speed of these units. Then combine that with the barrage ,speed and fotm bonus and i find this unit to be a most cost-effective medium tank hunter


Its good enough when you are behind. Just a su85 wont have any trouble penning axis late game armour like the s76 will.

The higher rof doesnt mean much if you always need a extra shot that pens to kill anything and you own td dies in 3 shot. Its also a more micro to get them going wich is often overlooked.

This is my fault for getting greedy but i once lost 2 su76's to a single teller.

So yeah they are servicable but imo def not cost effective considering its timing and micro.
13 Sep 2021, 04:55 AM
#44
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



Yes it is its own class. Their is no other unit like it, no other unit has such a shit timing window and doesnt scale meaningfully.

Unlike the su76 both the m10 and stug tank 4 at rounds, both do the 160 damage. Both have a powerfull round/abilitie to fullfil its primary job.


That still doesn't make the su76 a different class of vehicle from them though. No matter how shitty it is.
Just because the maxim sucks and requires munitions to do the job other MG's can do for free we don't put the maxim in the disappointment class instead of the Machinegun class.
13 Sep 2021, 04:57 AM
#45
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563


If only see they have or not have higher unit,they are light right,but look HP and damage and tech request.

Yeah but it can't chase thats the biggest reason su76 is lumped with stugs and m10's.
13 Sep 2021, 05:47 AM
#46
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2098 | Subs: 2

The USSR needs another SU-76. Maybe give the M10 (which had the same designation SU-76, which complicates the study of the combat use of these self-propelled guns) in several commanders.
13 Sep 2021, 06:08 AM
#47
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 764

Just scale a pen with vet a bit, or/and acceleration buff to 2.5 for example.

But I haven't tried the vehicle after moving accuracy buff. SU76 already has quite high base accuracy. This actually looks interesting. Although I'm not sure if I ever build one, because I play mostly con builds and getting an SU76 delays 7men upgrade (otherwise you have to play for the tech) + it delays your t34.

The USSR needs another SU-76. Maybe give the M10 (which had the same designation SU-76, which complicates the study of the combat use of these self-propelled guns) in several commanders.


SOV already have a cheap vehicle to throw, that is several times more useful then m10 both at throwing away and in combat.
13 Sep 2021, 08:27 AM
#48
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 760



Its good enough when you are behind. Just a su85 wont have any trouble penning axis late game armour like the s76 will.

The higher rof doesnt mean much if you always need a extra shot that pens to kill anything and you own td dies in 3 shot. Its also a more micro to get them going wich is often overlooked.

This is my fault for getting greedy but i once lost 2 su76's to a single teller.

So yeah they are servicable but imo def not cost effective considering its timing and micro.


Against late game heavy armour then the su85 does a better job. Against mediums i rather use the su76. Even if the su76 is not optimal vs heavy armour i would not recommend sending a tiger or panther unsupported against 2 su76´s because there is a good chance you will lose your heavy armour.
13 Sep 2021, 12:38 PM
#49
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1285



That still doesn't make the su76 a different class of vehicle from them though. No matter how shitty it is.
Just because the maxim sucks and requires munitions to do the job other MG's can do for free we don't put the maxim in the disappointment class instead of the Machinegun class.


The su76 is a multyrole lightweight with corresponding stats in hp armour mobility pen damage and price. Only its mobility is simaler/better.

The only unit that comes close is the puma but its an armoured scout car.
Pip
13 Sep 2021, 12:41 PM
#50
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580


Some factions have something or not have or hard to use is factions problem.Factions have but you not use is your problem.


I'm pointing out that you're making the statement that UKF "don't get" heavy tanks without "Top Teching", as though Axis don't have to do the same thing to access their "Heavy Tank" (Panther).

You're selectively downplaying UKF heavy access.
13 Sep 2021, 12:52 PM
#51
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1

SU76 is a weird tank. It's seldom worth it to stay on T3 cos T4 unlocks 7th man, and ZIS doesn't cost fuel, so the SU76 is in a weird spot on the tech tree.

It's basically a unit which is kind of redundant in the faction's tech-tree. The stats aren't even bad compared to similar vehicles - but the design problem is that ZIS guns are just a better and fuel-free alternative. If ZIS guns lost barrage then the SU76 barrage would be a unique selling point at least.
13 Sep 2021, 14:32 PM
#52
avatar of Harry

Posts: 159

You guys may argue about this, but I think I am one of the first people who started to spam Su-76 as a Su-85 replacement. I have been doing so way before the UKF release, and the Soviet tech reworked, you know, back then when both T3 and T4 cost 240 mp and 120 fuel.

To be honest, Su-76 is probably the most complex unit to balance in the Soviet roster. Unless the balance team buffs this thing to a total OP level, there is absolutely no reason ever to build the unit. It is not because the unit is bad, but more due to the soviet army design. The only reason you would need a hardcore AT unit mid-game is to counter light anti-infantry tanks. Yet, ironically enough, the Soviets also got the only light tanks that has decent AT capability. You may argue Su76 has some prolonged AT value to counter early OST mediums, but why not build a Zis that comes with a lower price as well as higher DPS and durability. The only early game concern the Zis has, the walking Stuka, has now been buffed to a stage that can sometimes kill the Su76 with only one barrage. Let's not forget that penal now have access to three PTRS, making it a decent counter for some OST mediums.

That is being said, simply increasing its DPS from 140 to 160 will not solve the problem. This unit needs a whole rework. Making it into a soviet Stug E won't be a bad idea. If they seriously still wanted to keep the SU-76 as AT unit, they then have to add a passive upgrade in T4 that can either increase its DPS to 160 or make it has a four-shot kill or two-shot snare health pool.


13 Sep 2021, 14:52 PM
#53
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1285

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2021, 08:27 AMZyllen


Against late game heavy armour then the su85 does a better job. Against mediums i rather use the su76. Even if the su76 is not optimal vs heavy armour i would not recommend sending a tiger or panther unsupported against 2 su76´s because there is a good chance you will lose your heavy armour.


Yeah its true that its still risky. It will most likely still end in one lost su76 and tiger/panther gets away after that kill.
13 Sep 2021, 19:48 PM
#55
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 760



Yeah its true that its still risky. It will most likely still end in one lost su76 and tiger/panther gets away after that kill.


Doesnt work that way.
13 Sep 2021, 19:52 PM
#56
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 761 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2021, 19:48 PMZyllen


Doesnt work that way.


it definitely does work that way, a panther could face tank several su-76s and kill at least one, and he would be reliably safe from danger once he starts reversing into his own frontline
13 Sep 2021, 20:04 PM
#57
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 760

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2021, 14:32 PMHarry
You guys may argue about this, but I think I am one of the first people who started to spam Su-76 as a Su-85 replacement. I have been doing so way before the UKF release, and the Soviet tech reworked, you know, back then when both T3 and T4 cost 240 mp and 120 fuel.

To be honest, Su-76 is probably the most complex unit to balance in the Soviet roster. Unless the balance team buffs this thing to a total OP level, there is absolutely no reason ever to build the unit. It is not because the unit is bad, but more due to the soviet army design. The only reason you would need a hardcore AT unit mid-game is to counter light anti-infantry tanks. Yet, ironically enough, the Soviets also got the only light tanks that has decent AT capability. You may argue Su76 has some prolonged AT value to counter early OST mediums, but why not build a Zis that comes with a lower price as well as higher DPS and durability. The only early game concern the Zis has, the walking Stuka, has now been buffed to a stage that can sometimes kill the Su76 with only one barrage. Let's not forget that penal now have access to three PTRS, making it a decent counter for some OST mediums.

That is being said, simply increasing its DPS from 140 to 160 will not solve the problem. This unit needs a whole rework. Making it into a soviet Stug E won't be a bad idea. If they seriously still wanted to keep the SU-76 as AT unit, they then have to add a passive upgrade in T4 that can either increase its DPS to 160 or make it has a four-shot kill or two-shot snare health pool.




If you spamming penals i consider a Zis a liability . you dont have a back line so you need to get every one of your units out if your penals are forced into a retreat . the su76 is valuable in the offense with its barrages which allows you to knock out enemy mg´s then return to a safe position. The current su76 is perfect for my playstyle. But i can understand that people who rely on support weapons will find the su76 not worthwile.
13 Sep 2021, 20:10 PM
#58
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 760

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2021, 19:52 PMKatukov


it definitely does work that way, a panther could face tank several su-76s and kill at least one, and he would be reliably safe from danger once he starts reversing into his own frontline


You do know that a single su85 has no chance in hell to win from a panther either? my foul mouthed ignorant little men
13 Sep 2021, 20:23 PM
#59
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 761 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2021, 20:10 PMZyllen


You do know that a single su85 has no chance in hell to win from a panther either? my foul mouthed ignorant little men


an su-85 will have infinitely better chances to fight off a panther than SU-76s, you're griefing yourself if you build su-76s but have tier 4 already
13 Sep 2021, 20:25 PM
#60
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1285

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2021, 19:48 PMZyllen


Doesnt work that way.


It you dont back off once the tiger tries to bully the double su76's it will most likely kill one su76. But if you back away your su76's you loose territory.

Having only a chance off 0,53% and 0,56% to pen the tiger at max and mid range it doesnt look good.
8x 140 damage or 9x 120 damage shots need to pen to kill it. When rng is 100% with you. Its about 15 or 17 shots when rng hates you.
While the tiger or a panther need only 3 to kill one su76.
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