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russian armor

Soviet AT Over Watch is too strong.

7 Sep 2021, 09:48 AM
#81
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2527 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Sep 2021, 16:17 PMvgfgff
So Did you considered about zeroing too? It is same type but more effective to multiple target in the area include infantry while ATOW shared its shell to multiple target with targeting only a tank(more target = less effective).

May you also considered about okw sector assualt combined with zeroing too? that wiped entire tank and infantry or forced to retreat?.

and german defensive arty that provided cover to all friendly sector with off map arty that can bombard all target/area in same time while similar skill like primitive overwatch that fire from UKF base arty so it can only provided cover to 1 area in same time and need to wait for it aimming before barrage begin.

There used to have a reason of nerf something because It powerful when combined with other ability without considered other perspective such as it will become worthless when use it alone without combined with other.

...

as you seen in this video.
A lot of shot was bourced off.
A lot of shot was misses.

I don't see zeroing arty that much which is probably more due to the commander than the ability itself. So I don't have any real grip on how it performs. The few times I have seen it, it performed very well though. If it performs as you describe I think both its performance and cost should be lowered (off note: I think abilities above 200 MUN can be problematic in general. You expect a lot of performance and wipes for that cost, however the game has moved away from those super high impact units and abilities).

AT overwatch itself slightly overperforms in my opinion, but considering both commanders only occupy and middlish rank in their load out and that Axis tanks rule the late game, it is overall not a big issue. I'd rather have it reworked, what MMX suggested sounds very reasonable.

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Sep 2021, 06:14 AMMMX

Yes, that's actually a very good suggestion

7 Sep 2021, 10:00 AM
#82
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 640

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Sep 2021, 06:14 AMMMX
i wouldn't say the ability is op per se, just very strong under the right circumstances.

IMHO the problem isn't the damage output itself, but rather how it is distributed between multiple targets. the reason is that number of shells fired doesn't depend on how many tanks are within the target circle, which means if you have multiple tanks in the area, the damage dealt per unit is rather low. OTOH, a single crippled tank will be focused down very quickly, making the AT overwatch really strong in taking out isolated units.

the easiest way to strike a better balance between single and multi-target performance would probably be to tone down the base DPS a bit, but let the number of shells or ROF scale with the number of targets in the aiming circle (maybe by a factor of 0.5 to 0.75). that way the AT overwatch wouldn't be an automatic death sentence for, say, a lone tiger with engine crit and do more than just a tickle when more units are around.

this would be a straight up nerf imo, because ability is primary used vs slow heavy targets like elefant or JT. Ram + offmap was already nerfed with nerfing of the ram and removing bombing strike from meta commanders. If the ability gonna receive similar treatment I'm afraid the only way for SOV to deal with heavy TD on his lane, is the same route of dealing with ST - straight up outplay of your opponent.
7 Sep 2021, 12:18 PM
#83
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 307

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Sep 2021, 06:14 AMMMX
i wouldn't say the ability is op per se, just very strong under the right circumstances.

IMHO the problem isn't the damage output itself, but rather how it is distributed between multiple targets. the reason is that number of shells fired doesn't depend on how many tanks are within the target circle, which means if you have multiple tanks in the area, the damage dealt per unit is rather low. OTOH, a single crippled tank will be focused down very quickly, making the AT overwatch really strong in taking out isolated units.

the easiest way to strike a better balance between single and multi-target performance would probably be to tone down the base DPS a bit, but let the number of shells or ROF scale with the number of targets in the aiming circle (maybe by a factor of 0.5 to 0.75). that way the AT overwatch wouldn't be an automatic death sentence for, say, a lone tiger with engine crit and do more than just a tickle when more units are around.



Wouldn't this make it very weird if the ability starts with 5 tanks in-range but after 1 shell drops 4 tanks leave the circle and halfway through the ability those 4 tanks return.



to make the ability more consistent/predictable it could be set to fire a set amount of shells per tank say; 5 shots of 120-240 dmg with 1000 pen. during a 30 seconds window while the ability duration is 90-120 seconds
7 Sep 2021, 13:45 PM
#84
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 312

the ability is better to be left alone than to be """reworked""" into either being useless or extremely overpowered


It doesn't start dropping immediately, it don't hit under FoW, and basically every axis tank is capable of reversing and avoiding 90% of damage if the engine is not damaged, It ignores non-tanks too. a strong axis frontline will eradicate a lot of enemy troops that try to stall for ATO ramp-up damage.
Don't need to fix what's not broken, but if the forum insists that ATO is overpowered, clearly it is, god forbid something threatens my axis heavy tank TD meta, ahaha...unless o_O;)
7 Sep 2021, 14:27 PM
#85
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 991

Check mach stats. Axis still distinctly dominate team games. And between most picket commanders is no one with this abillity.
All thread is build on feelings (mostly axis only players).
RintFosk and vgfgff in tests proved, that is not a problem leave circle (even ramed JT).
MMX
7 Sep 2021, 14:58 PM
#86
avatar of MMX

Posts: 880 | Subs: 1


this would be a straight up nerf imo, because ability is primary used vs slow heavy targets like elefant or JT. Ram + offmap was already nerfed with nerfing of the ram and removing bombing strike from meta commanders. If the ability gonna receive similar treatment I'm afraid the only way for SOV to deal with heavy TD on his lane, is the same route of dealing with ST - straight up outplay of your opponent.


well, certainly, lowering the single-target damage would be a straight-up nerf in this very scenario, but exactly how much lower would ofc be up to debate. to be clear, i'm not advocating a nerf to 1/4 of its current live value but rather sth in the range of 66 to 75%. most of the ram/offmap combos were adjusted in a rather sensible way as well and AT-OW should be no exception. however, by giving it back a bit more multi-target dps through some form of scaling (and maybe some other adjustments like slightly greater targeting circle) it should perform much better versus groups of tanks while still having enough oomph to aid in taking out the big cats. and the emphasis is on aid, since outplaying your opponent should require more than just two button presses in my opinion.




Wouldn't this make it very weird if the ability starts with 5 tanks in-range but after 1 shell drops 4 tanks leave the circle and halfway through the ability those 4 tanks return.



to make the ability more consistent/predictable it could be set to fire a set amount of shells per tank say; 5 shots of 120-240 dmg with 1000 pen. during a 30 seconds window while the ability duration is 90-120 seconds


this could ofc also work well. although that would mean the strength of the ability scales 1:1 with the number of targets involved, which would likely rather end up either too weak vs single targets or too good against large unit concentrations. that's why i'd suggest to start from only a slightly lower base damage than the current and add only about 33 to 50% dps with each additional tank in range.
7 Sep 2021, 19:00 PM
#87
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 640

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Sep 2021, 14:58 PMMMX


well, certainly, lowering the single-target damage would be a straight-up nerf in this very scenario, but exactly how much lower would ofc be up to debate. to be clear, i'm not advocating a nerf to 1/4 of its current live value but rather sth in the range of 66 to 75%. most of the ram/offmap combos were adjusted in a rather sensible way as well and AT-OW should be no exception. however, by giving it back a bit more multi-target dps through some form of scaling (and maybe some other adjustments like slightly greater targeting circle) it should perform much better versus groups of tanks while still having enough oomph to aid in taking out the big cats. and the emphasis is on aid, since outplaying your opponent should require more than just two button presses in my opinion.

I would rather have it be more effective vs slow and big targets, then otherwise. If you make it more efficient vs multiple targets, the dps will drop a lot.
Just think about it, for ability to work, you need vehicle to slow, otherwise it is a very expensive armor detergent. Unlike AT loiters, you need time to rev up the shell count and if vehicle is fast enough to get out you are getting best case like 200 damage, while best case with AT loiter can deal up to ~500, even if vehicle is not snared.

So the alternative route is having some sort of accuracy dependency that would make ability miss more vs medium armor + reducing the shell count in first 15 seconds of the ability and moving them towards the 25-40s.

Things like this should be approached very carefully, because 4v4 winrates are pretty bad currently, which to my surprise was fine in 2019 . I still think 4v4 is a stupid mode to play ladder solo, but locking in as allies there and knowing that if enemy is good enough and picks X unit/doctrine, your chances or winning drops substantially, is quite brutal.
8 Sep 2021, 20:50 PM
#88
avatar of PlayGaem

Posts: 2

This ability is not even close to OP, but one of its biggest weaknesses is not very well advertised. I think a lot of players see AT overwatch demolish an isolated tank and conclude that that's what the ability does to the whole circle, rather than having a pretty strict cap on the number of projectiles it has and distributing them across targets.
9 Sep 2021, 03:57 AM
#89
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 98

This ability is not even close to OP, but one of its biggest weaknesses is not very well advertised. I think a lot of players see AT overwatch demolish an isolated tank and conclude that that's what the ability does to the whole circle, rather than having a pretty strict cap on the number of projectiles it has and distributing them across targets.

^This

Its no crazier than Sector Assault. Sure u can shoot those planes down but usually they get really good dmg in before u can
9 Sep 2021, 04:52 AM
#90
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 942

The issue isn't the ability itself, it's the synergy with allied units that makes it absurdly strong. When used behind enemy tanks (especially during a dive), it instantly creates what is in effect a 'wall' which retreating vehicles can't cross. This amount of map control on a single ability is just far too much, especially when the 'activation' period is so short (i.e. the time between clicking and the first shell dropping).

Consider that during an allied charge, Axis tanks will usually need to reverse in order to maintain their armor advantage, since long-range pen isn't great on allied mediums, or because they're being zoned out by 60-range TDs. Reversing, however, places them inside the AT Overwatch, which will result in massive amounts of damage taken. Going forward also isn't an option, as it means being surrounded by allied tanks, usually giving flanking advantages - and standing still isn't much better. Even worse, slower axis tanks can effectively be 'deleted' by this ability, with no opportunity for counter play, or even a reaction because of this 'instant wall' effect.

My suggestion would be to keep the stats the same, but increase the delay before the first shell drops by a significant margine. As a result, it keeps its power about the same, and still works well as a defensive ability, but it could no longer create impassable zones instantly during diving attacks.
9 Sep 2021, 05:40 AM
#91
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 483

no opportunity for counter play



You counter the ability by not going in the circle. I know its a hard concept for people to understand but Circle = BAD move out of Circle.

The only people who are complaining about this ability are those that have no patience and send their tanks in unsupported. The ability has a role, it does it well and has weaknesses to it. It does not need a change.

Every time an allied player uses the ability against me they are literally just wasting their ammo because it does nothing but force me to move.

If you are having trouble with this ability then you need to start using combined arms more and stop putting yourself into bad situations where it can be used.
9 Sep 2021, 10:35 AM
#92
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 312

The issue isn't the ability itself, it's the synergy with allied units that makes it absurdly strong. When used behind enemy tanks (especially during a dive), it instantly creates what is in effect a 'wall' which retreating vehicles can't cross. This amount of map control on a single ability is just far too much, especially when the 'activation' period is so short (i.e. the time between clicking and the first shell dropping).

Consider that during an allied charge, Axis tanks will usually need to reverse in order to maintain their armor advantage, since long-range pen isn't great on allied mediums, or because they're being zoned out by 60-range TDs. Reversing, however, places them inside the AT Overwatch, which will result in massive amounts of damage taken. Going forward also isn't an option, as it means being surrounded by allied tanks, usually giving flanking advantages - and standing still isn't much better. Even worse, slower axis tanks can effectively be 'deleted' by this ability, with no opportunity for counter play, or even a reaction because of this 'instant wall' effect.

My suggestion would be to keep the stats the same, but increase the delay before the first shell drops by a significant margine. As a result, it keeps its power about the same, and still works well as a defensive ability, but it could no longer create impassable zones instantly during diving attacks.

you can drive throughout the entire duration of ATO if your tank doesn't have engine damage (or is a heavy tank without blitzkrieg) and survive with quite a lot of health. In this scenario, the enemy is clearly forcing a full retreat on your armor, ATO will do no damage if the enemy does not pursue your armor. If they do, then you reverse immediately, ATO has only enough time to hit each tank maybe once, twice, before your tanks get away.

Heavies and engine damaged tanks are going to die to the diving tanks regardless of ATO, there is nothing you can do here.

forum post diagnosis: skill issue
9 Sep 2021, 11:18 AM
#93
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 297

The issue isn't the ability itself, it's the synergy with allied units that makes it absurdly strong. When used behind enemy tanks (especially during a dive), it instantly creates what is in effect a 'wall' which retreating vehicles can't cross. This amount of map control on a single ability is just far too much, especially when the 'activation' period is so short (i.e. the time between clicking and the first shell dropping).

Consider that during an allied charge, Axis tanks will usually need to reverse in order to maintain their armor advantage, since long-range pen isn't great on allied mediums, or because they're being zoned out by 60-range TDs. Reversing, however, places them inside the AT Overwatch, which will result in massive amounts of damage taken. Going forward also isn't an option, as it means being surrounded by allied tanks, usually giving flanking advantages - and standing still isn't much better. Even worse, slower axis tanks can effectively be 'deleted' by this ability, with no opportunity for counter play, or even a reaction because of this 'instant wall' effect.

My suggestion would be to keep the stats the same, but increase the delay before the first shell drops by a significant margine. As a result, it keeps its power about the same, and still works well as a defensive ability, but it could no longer create impassable zones instantly during diving attacks.


I am confused by your statement, are you saying an allied charge when they caught you out of position or they charged your main army. If you are caught out of position you deserve to lose the tanks, its 200 muni plus whatever they threw at you on top of flanking you. If you are talking about your main army you should have snares, mines, shreks, at guns to slow them down. The ability needs sight so even if they call it in behind you it needs sight.

Now in 3v3 or 4v4 where one of them might have recon/flares then there aint much you can do but that is the nature of bigger game modes. If you increase the initial delay you would need to significantly ramp up subsequent drops so DPS stays the same. That would be even worse for a single snared tank or a well timed ram due to the drops focusing on one tank instead of spreading out to all in the circle.
10 Sep 2021, 03:46 AM
#95
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 942

You counter the ability by not going in the circle. I know its a hard concept for people to understand but Circle = BAD move out of Circle.

The only people who are complaining about this ability are those that have no patience and send their tanks in unsupported. The ability has a role, it does it well and has weaknesses to it. It does not need a change.

Every time an allied player uses the ability against me they are literally just wasting their ammo because it does nothing but force me to move.

If you are having trouble with this ability then you need to start using combined arms more and stop putting yourself into bad situations where it can be used.


This works on some maps; but remember that a lot of the maps, especially in team-games are very 'lane' heavy - this is where the ability is so strong. There are multiple maps where you can't avoid the circle; your options are to retreat into it, or stay in front of it and fight allied tanks at close range, and both are bad choices. Redball is a great example of this.

As for 'bad situations', that's a massive oversimplification. Axis tanks don't excel close range; you want to keep Panthers, P4s, JP4s, STUGs - and especially ultra-heavies - at max range at all times. Getting any of those tanks into close range fights means getting flanked and losing your armor advantage, as pen increases at close range. As a result, when allied tanks dive on you, especially on a lane map, you need to reverse; there is no other option.

Are lane maps bad design? Sure, but they're a major part of the game, and we can't remove them all; so abilities need to be balanced around them to some degree.

you can drive throughout the entire duration of ATO if your tank doesn't have engine damage (or is a heavy tank without blitzkrieg) and survive with quite a lot of health. In this scenario, the enemy is clearly forcing a full retreat on your armor, ATO will do no damage if the enemy does not pursue your armor. If they do, then you reverse immediately, ATO has only enough time to hit each tank maybe once, twice, before your tanks get away.

Heavies and engine damaged tanks are going to die to the diving tanks regardless of ATO, there is nothing you can do here.

forum post diagnosis: skill issue


Heavies and engine-damaged tanks won't die to diving tanks if supported. An Elephant, KT, or JT should never be out by itself, and it usually never is; it's probably supported by P4s, Panthers, or similar.

The problem is, in a dive, those tanks are going to need to reverse; even the ultra-heavies. When reversing, they can still give cover to the heavies which are staying behind, since they only need to stay out of the medium/close range of the diving tanks. However, that range places them within the ATO, which doesn't work. So that means they need to either retreat more, dropping cover on the ultra-heavy, or stay and fight at close range, where they're at a disadvantage.

The ability to instantly create a massive 'unavoidable damage' area is overpowered; that's why the delay needs to be increased. That way it can't be used to instantly separate retreating units during a dive, but it can still be used defensively (or in dives where the axis player is playing poorly).

I am confused by your statement, are you saying an allied charge when they caught you out of position or they charged your main army. If you are caught out of position you deserve to lose the tanks, its 200 muni plus whatever they threw at you on top of flanking you. If you are talking about your main army you should have snares, mines, shreks, at guns to slow them down. The ability needs sight so even if they call it in behind you it needs sight.

Now in 3v3 or 4v4 where one of them might have recon/flares then there aint much you can do but that is the nature of bigger game modes. If you increase the initial delay you would need to significantly ramp up subsequent drops so DPS stays the same. That would be even worse for a single snared tank or a well timed ram due to the drops focusing on one tank instead of spreading out to all in the circle.


Yes, I should have clarified; it's specifically a problem in 3v3 and 4v4 (and maybe rarely in 2v2). In smaller modes it's actually reasonable. However, I don't think that's an excuse - the game should be balanced for all game modes, and have a "zoned or deleted" ability just isn't good.
10 Sep 2021, 05:04 AM
#96
avatar of RintFosk

Posts: 52



This works on some maps; but remember that a lot of the maps, especially in team-games are very 'lane' heavy - this is where the ability is so strong. There are multiple maps where you can't avoid the circle; your options are to retreat into it, or stay in front of it and fight allied tanks at close range, and both are bad choices. Redball is a great example of this.

As for 'bad situations', that's a massive oversimplification. Axis tanks don't excel close range; you want to keep Panthers, P4s, JP4s, STUGs - and especially ultra-heavies - at max range at all times. Getting any of those tanks into close range fights means getting flanked and losing your armor advantage, as pen increases at close range. As a result, when allied tanks dive on you, especially on a lane map, you need to reverse; there is no other option.

Are lane maps bad design? Sure, but they're a major part of the game, and we can't remove them all; so abilities need to be balanced around them to some degree.



Heavies and engine-damaged tanks won't die to diving tanks if supported. An Elephant, KT, or JT should never be out by itself, and it usually never is; it's probably supported by P4s, Panthers, or similar.

The problem is, in a dive, those tanks are going to need to reverse; even the ultra-heavies. When reversing, they can still give cover to the heavies which are staying behind, since they only need to stay out of the medium/close range of the diving tanks. However, that range places them within the ATO, which doesn't work. So that means they need to either retreat more, dropping cover on the ultra-heavy, or stay and fight at close range, where they're at a disadvantage.

The ability to instantly create a massive 'unavoidable damage' area is overpowered; that's why the delay needs to be increased. That way it can't be used to instantly separate retreating units during a dive, but it can still be used defensively (or in dives where the axis player is playing poorly).



Yes, I should have clarified; it's specifically a problem in 3v3 and 4v4 (and maybe rarely in 2v2). In smaller modes it's actually reasonable. However, I don't think that's an excuse - the game should be balanced for all game modes, and have a "zoned or deleted" ability just isn't good.


If I'm not mistaken, your concern with ATO is that supporting the retreating heavy tank(s) with other armours to deny vision from enemy dive is not viable, since ATO is likely to drop equally deadly hits to all the armours in the circle resulting you to lost all the tanks.

If this is your concern then I have a tip that hopefully can help you: ATO's total hits are limited and mostly evenly distributed to all valid targets inside the visible area within the ability casting area. Retreating all the armours but the super heavy on the frontline is exactly the most suboptimal strategy to counter ATO since it will result all the ATO hits concentrated on one tank. If you support your front row tanks with your full army like againsting any other normal allies dive, help separating the ATO hits from the super heavies, denying sight by taking out the diving force, the ATO is not going to deal much damage to all your tanks at all.
10 Sep 2021, 08:22 AM
#97
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2241

make the circle the same size from zeroing arty from okw. and than its fine. now its like 50% bigger
10 Sep 2021, 12:23 PM
#98
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 312



Heavies and engine-damaged tanks won't die to diving tanks if supported. An Elephant, KT, or JT should never be out by itself, and it usually never is; it's probably supported by P4s, Panthers, or similar.

The problem is, in a dive, those tanks are going to need to reverse; even the ultra-heavies. When reversing, they can still give cover to the heavies which are staying behind, since they only need to stay out of the medium/close range of the diving tanks. However, that range places them within the ATO, which doesn't work. So that means they need to either retreat more, dropping cover on the ultra-heavy, or stay and fight at close range, where they're at a disadvantage.

The ability to instantly create a massive 'unavoidable damage' area is overpowered; that's why the delay needs to be increased. That way it can't be used to instantly separate retreating units during a dive, but it can still be used defensively (or in dives where the axis player is playing poorly).

you are making things up to justify your trash narrative, ATO doesn't fall down instantly and you're going to decimate the enemy dive if you have supporting forces. When you kill the enemy forces ATO wont fire at you anymore.

your scenario is an allies outplay the way you describe it, maybe that should be telling us something
10 Sep 2021, 18:53 PM
#99
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5268

make the circle the same size from zeroing arty from okw. and than its fine. now its like 50% bigger

It would need to hit faster if a tank could get out of the way in 2 seconds.
10 Sep 2021, 19:14 PM
#100
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2241


It would need to hit faster if a tank could get out of the way in 2 seconds.


zero arty offmap gives much longer time for landing first shell and has much smaller circle. yo your argue is pretty much useless.
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