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What is up with M8A1(Scott) change?

30 Aug 2021, 18:18 PM
#21
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1186 | Subs: 1

M8 is not too survivable, and the fact that people are trying to act like it justifies how piss poor it is currently is laughable. Every Axis tank in the game (and brits with Hammer) can press a button to zoom away from fights going poorly. Every Ostheer vehicle has access to smoke with doctrine to make their high armor stock tanks even harder to kill.

The M8a1 is a lategame, mobile indirect support unit like the katy and werfer. Unlike those two, the M8a1 has far less range, less burst damage and capacity to wipe, and less reason to be taken over their factions' other stock vehicles in their tiers. It needs survivability to work at all as a unit, unless someone wants to convince me that it should have the same health as mortar halftracks that hit the field earlier.

The M8a1 needs lethality buffs period. No compromises, no corresponding nerfs. US lategame is known as the weakest in the game, and mainly because of the lack of lategame stock anti-blobbing tools, forcing certain doctrines to cover this hole. The barrage is laughably weak, and the autofire has already been neutered. Increase the AoE of the barrage shells, or give it suppression, or stock WP barrages, or something to make it a consistent anti-blob tool.

/rant.
30 Aug 2021, 18:31 PM
#22
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3459 | Subs: 1



Thx for the visualisation. I took your graph and added the prepatch state before the big AOE nerf with a purple line. You can see how huge the difference is.
I added an orange line for a possible buff that would turn it in a better blob controlling machine which wouldn't affect its performance versus single units that much.




Edit:


You are right, the current damage (red line) should be capped at sixty until range 0.75 or 1. I'm not sure if it is 0.75 or 1, because in the patch notes of february they stated 0.75 for near distance and now they stated 1 for near distance.

Old patch note:
Auto-fire range from 60 to 50
HE Barrage scatter max from 10 to 7
HE Barrage Damage from 100 to 80
HE Barrage AOE damage from 1/0.25/0.1 to 0.75/0.4/0.2
HE Barrage AOE distance from 1/2/3 to 0.75/2/4
HE Barrage Angle scatter from 7 to 6
HE Barrage shell count from 4 to 5
HE Barrage reload from 2.75/2.9 to 1.75/2.9
Barrage shells now use mortar explosion effects to distinguish them from auto-fire rounds.
Veterancy 2 scatter bonus now applies to the barrage instead of the unit's autofire
Smoke no longer shares a cooldown with the main barrage
Human Crush removed






What's pathetic from the balance team shown on this graph is the huge nerf the unit get 6 months ago and the small for nothing buff it get now.
They don't have a clue with what they did in february and they're don't have any idea on how to fix it.
30 Aug 2021, 18:32 PM
#23
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1842 | Subs: 1

I mentioned in the general feedback thread but Scott needs some kind of "area denial" barrage option as with Vet it's barrage becomes super accurate but a lot of times you really just need to force a bunch of support weapons to move or deny a VP Circle.

Barring that it feels like the OHK radius could be bumped up slightly. Shell speed could by slowed or additional nerfs if needed.
30 Aug 2021, 18:53 PM
#24
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 475

I mentioned in the general feedback thread but Scott needs some kind of "area denial" barrage option as with Vet it's barrage becomes super accurate but a lot of times you really just need to force a bunch of support weapons to move or deny a VP Circle.

Barring that it feels like the OHK radius could be bumped up slightly. Shell speed could by slowed or additional nerfs if needed.


Maybe something like replace smoke canister with Flame rounds, it could displace support units, damage bunkers over time and deny area. Would be different from Pak howi and would give USF stock flame unit.
30 Aug 2021, 19:03 PM
#25
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 611



Wonder how Axis won prior to winter patch. It used to have 100 dmg with 1 near distance.


Agreed even before all the nerfs were dished out to USF its not like Axis were losing every single match. Hell even when Soviets had snipers in Clown Cars as annoying as it was, it didn't effect my ability to win.

If we are going to have Asymmetrical Balance then naturally some factions should be better at some things than others but the issue is those unique things are what the Balance Team Targets and focus's all the nerfs on while leaving all the unique things on Axis untouched.

Take the M1919A6 LMG, why is it ok to nerf getting two of these (A doctrinal upgrade which would cost 140 Ammo to get both of them) because they deleted HMG's but having Obers a stock unit with less ammo investment be able to walk straight into an MG and delete it without even flanking it is ok? There is far to many double standards.

Having Stuka which only requires one building (Mechanized) and outperform Dual Scott which arrives much later with a bigger fuel investment is silly at this point especially since the justification for the nerf was that getting two of them were too effective.
Vaz
30 Aug 2021, 19:06 PM
#26
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1145

I really don't understand the need to have a non-lethal scott. Yet it's ok for katyusha, brummbar, panzerwerfer, and walking stuka to be extremely lethal. The brummbar is pretty expensive, but the rocket arty is nearly the same cost. The scot has to get closer and fire slower. Maybe what we need to do before deciding further balance changes is discuss what is the role of the scott, is it performing that role PROPERLY, and if not what should be done so that it does.

I can tell you right now, if it's job is either blob control or dislodge team weapons, it does a poor job.

The only role it does well right now is annoy and fling a lot of smoke around the map(which is actually useful, tbh)
30 Aug 2021, 19:10 PM
#27
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2241

M8 is not too survivable, and the fact that people are trying to act like it justifies how piss poor it is currently is laughable. Every Axis tank in the game (and brits with Hammer) can press a button to zoom away from fights going poorly. Every Ostheer vehicle has access to smoke with doctrine to make their high armor stock tanks even harder to kill.

The M8a1 is a lategame, mobile indirect support unit like the katy and werfer. Unlike those two, the M8a1 has far less range, less burst damage and capacity to wipe, and less reason to be taken over their factions' other stock vehicles in their tiers. It needs survivability to work at all as a unit, unless someone wants to convince me that it should have the same health as mortar halftracks that hit the field earlier.

The M8a1 needs lethality buffs period. No compromises, no corresponding nerfs. US lategame is known as the weakest in the game, and mainly because of the lack of lategame stock anti-blobbing tools, forcing certain doctrines to cover this hole. The barrage is laughably weak, and the autofire has already been neutered. Increase the AoE of the barrage shells, or give it suppression, or stock WP barrages, or something to make it a consistent anti-blob tool.

/rant.


show me the german verhicle which can endless barrage from save place all the time without micro and very deadly shells. than we talk about survive. u compare here tanks which must move into fire range from every TD to deal some dmg. scotts fired from above rang 100. see the difference?
30 Aug 2021, 19:36 PM
#28
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1196



show me the german verhicle which can endless barrage from save place all the time without micro and very deadly shells. than we talk about survive. u compare here tanks which must move into fire range from every TD to deal some dmg. scotts fired from above rang 100. see the difference?

please don't embarrass yourself
30 Aug 2021, 19:36 PM
#29
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 611

please don't embarrass yourself


He already did
30 Aug 2021, 21:32 PM
#30
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905



show me the german verhicle which can endless barrage from save place all the time without micro and very deadly shells. than we talk about survive. u compare here tanks which must move into fire range from every TD to deal some dmg. scotts fired from above rang 100. see the difference?


If you only would read the posts a litte bit above your post, you could avoid such silly mistakes. I'll repost the february patch notes I posted here just for you:

Old patch note (february):
Auto-fire range from 60 to 50
HE Barrage scatter max from 10 to 7
HE Barrage Damage from 100 to 80
HE Barrage AOE damage from 1/0.25/0.1 to 0.75/0.4/0.2
HE Barrage AOE distance from 1/2/3 to 0.75/2/4
HE Barrage Angle scatter from 7 to 6
HE Barrage shell count from 4 to 5
HE Barrage reload from 2.75/2.9 to 1.75/2.9


In addition, since we were talking about HE Barrage all the time, it is not about no micro at all. Autofire at range 80 to 100 would be no micro from a relative safe distance. Shooting at moving units with a barrage is even more difficult, it needs skill/foresight.
The current autofire is pretty defensively on the other side, if you want to use it aggressively you have to move your squishy small tank into a dangerous area where it can get caught by a push or some unseen AT.



30 Aug 2021, 22:05 PM
#31
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 156



show me the german verhicle which can endless barrage from save place all the time without micro and very deadly shells. than we talk about survive. u compare here tanks which must move into fire range from every TD to deal some dmg. scotts fired from above rang 100. see the difference?

I bet you have spent a total of 5 minutes using a M8A1. Total. Across all your games

Plz stop trolling for axis, thx
31 Aug 2021, 01:13 AM
#32
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 593

M8 is not too survivable, and the fact that people are trying to act like it justifies how piss poor it is currently is laughable. Every Axis tank in the game (and brits with Hammer) can press a button to zoom away from fights going poorly. Every Ostheer vehicle has access to smoke with doctrine to make their high armor stock tanks even harder to kill.

The M8a1 is a lategame, mobile indirect support unit like the katy and werfer. Unlike those two, the M8a1 has far less range, less burst damage and capacity to wipe, and less reason to be taken over their factions' other stock vehicles in their tiers. It needs survivability to work at all as a unit, unless someone wants to convince me that it should have the same health as mortar halftracks that hit the field earlier.

The M8a1 needs lethality buffs period. No compromises, no corresponding nerfs. US lategame is known as the weakest in the game, and mainly because of the lack of lategame stock anti-blobbing tools, forcing certain doctrines to cover this hole. The barrage is laughably weak, and the autofire has already been neutered. Increase the AoE of the barrage shells, or give it suppression, or stock WP barrages, or something to make it a consistent anti-blob tool.

/rant.

i wish there was something to disagree with here
31 Aug 2021, 01:22 AM
#33
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 469

scotts fired from above rang 100. see the difference?


Are you sure you are not mistake Priest from Scott?
31 Aug 2021, 01:24 AM
#34
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 957

The M8 Scott used to be decent but was nerfed because Dual M8 Scott was too effective yet if you get Dual of anything it will be more effective. How come Katyusha/Panzerwerfer/Stuka weren't nerfed because getting two of those is far more effective than getting one.

Why aren't Panthers/Jacksons/Fireflys nerfed because getting two of them is more effective than just having one.


The issue with the double-scott was that it effectively deleted OST's entire stock roster with very little user input, something that 2x Tanks or 2x Rocket arty couldn't do. OST is entirely designed around static units; the MG42, LMG grens, Pak40s (ost's only 60-range AT) and so on, in addition to being designed around small squads (4 models). That faction design against two fast moving, fast auto-firing artillery units that could usually wipe 1-2 models per hit just wasn't a great experience.

That's not to say that current scott is 'good'; it could probably use some adjustments, especially to the manual barrage. However, returning it to its pre-nerf levels just isn't going to work.
31 Aug 2021, 02:43 AM
#35
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 611



The issue with the double-scott was that it effectively deleted OST's entire stock roster with very little user input, something that 2x Tanks or 2x Rocket arty couldn't do. OST is entirely designed around static units; the MG42, LMG grens, Pak40s (ost's only 60-range AT) and so on, in addition to being designed around small squads (4 models). That faction design against two fast moving, fast auto-firing artillery units that could usually wipe 1-2 models per hit just wasn't a great experience.

That's not to say that current scott is 'good'; it could probably use some adjustments, especially to the manual barrage. However, returning it to its pre-nerf levels just isn't going to work.


This is wrong on many levels. Assuming both parties are of equal skill Panzer IV should come out before Sherman does or at about the same time. If they choose to go M8 Scott first then they leave themselves open to get dived by my tanks. If the Whermacht player has no tanks out on the field before USF can manage to get Double M8 Scotts then he probably already lost well before that point. I personally have never lost to any USF player who made M8 Scots pre-nerf or not. Are they annoying as hell? Sure but so were Soviet Clown Cars back in the day with Snipers in them and people cried nonstop about how overpowered it was yet it never stopped me from winning. It was a L2P issue. After nerf M8 Scott just tickles my units and is nothing but a glorious smoke thrower.

Second why are people making LMG Grens vs USF without grabbing Ambush Camo, G43 or Veteran Squad Leaders? These are significantly more useful vs USF as they can protect your MG from flanks all game while also being significantly more mobile than LMG Grenadiers. If they are spamming LMG Grenadiers and getting owned by M8 Scotts then they deserve to lose. Different commanders are good/better vs different factions (shocker). Even pre-nerf M8 Scotts were never scary because of the timing that they come into play when you are (should be) shifting to tanks at that point. Mortar Halftrack, Regular Mortar, or even Pak Howitzers are more dangerous than M8 Scotts due to the timing that they arrive.

Also remember when USF had double LMG and could throw smoke? (Also pre nerf M8 Scott Period) that never really changed Axis win rates as more experienced players just adapted (and made use of mines for the incoming smoke that would eventually come and Panzer Grenadiers)

Everything you mentioned is basically people who are bad at the game and don't know or want to adapt. The fact of the matter is that M8 Scott is a trash unit in a faction that is poorly designed with an arsenal of extremely sub par units held together by bandaids and no amount of stat adjustments will fix it unless they address the root of the problem which is the poor faction design.



31 Aug 2021, 02:47 AM
#36
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 101

By far, axis complains scott because of its survive and " double scott can detele my lazy pak wall "
. Ok fine. Then nerf it survive and a cability to get 2 scott too fast by increase pop, mp fuel... Make barrage longer cool down, 100 range barrage to 85 range is also fine.
But nerfing both auto fire and barrage is the most d***head move ever. That is triple nerf indeed. Cut off it survive by 50 range autofire, double scott power thanks to new shitty 80 range barrage which cant do shit against blob, weapon support wall. The third is a tactical choice of player, they not gonna pick scott because they know it not gonna do jack shit even got dual scott, mirco shit out of it barrage but gain nothing else.
Finally, pak howie had been cut their teeth too. Leave usf no choice but calliOP ( got nerf too ). So which STOCK unit of usf for blob control, softenning defendsive line ?
There are no way to accept that behaviour of nerfing unit like this. Playerbase is not top player, stop pretend everyone is helpingHand, Dave or glorious SturmtigerGiap.... Heck someone complain 2 scott op because top player mirco so well, pls nerf it.


31 Aug 2021, 03:02 AM
#37
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 101

To be fair, Scott should be remain it old power but cut down survive ( no/ delay ninja smoke, lower speed, 50 range auto fire with old power ). Axis side can dive, kill it off guard and usf need to mirco it more carefully
MMX
31 Aug 2021, 03:05 AM
#38
avatar of MMX

Posts: 998 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2021, 18:31 PMEsxile


What's pathetic from the balance team shown on this graph is the huge nerf the unit get 6 months ago and the small for nothing buff it get now.
They don't have a clue with what they did in february and they're don't have any idea on how to fix it.



As usual, you seem to be willfully oblivious to the fact that despite the hefty nerf to the AoE the Scott received major buffs to barrage scatter, reload and shell count to make up for the loss in raw damage. The problem with the revised AoE back then was that the shells were no longer able to one-shot full-health models, which arguable made the barrage less valuable overall. However, the "small for nothing" buff in the beta aims to fix exactly this by giving the Scott at least some OHK potential back. That may not look like much but is actually a significant performance boost, even though I personally think the unit deserves better than TD-level OHK radius (maybe at least 0.5 to 0.75 m). If that alone will be enough to make the Scott viable remains to be seen I guess.
31 Aug 2021, 03:12 AM
#39
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 101

Barrage scatter is nothing if it wont kill any shit !. Damn it
I played long enough to see new baragge could not kill over 5 model out of 24 model fromfussi blob or 2 scott throw 2 barrgae at weapon team but no wipe ????
How on earth 85 fuel unit cant do their job properly because top player ?
Could i use Tightrope Vid as a proof ?
31 Aug 2021, 03:24 AM
#40
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 101


Here is your good scatter. Take it. Now blob and weapon team can laugh at you EVERY MATCH
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