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What is up with M8A1(Scott) change?

29 Aug 2021, 14:03 PM
#1
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 377

```
M8A1

The M8A1 is having its barrage deal increased damage within 1m. The increase also comes with a very limited one-hit kill radius to help it bleed manpower on direct hits.

Barrage AOE near distance from 1 to 0.25
Barrage AOE near damage from 0.75 to 1

```

Are the balance team trying to nerf it to the below-the-ground level? Or was it intended to be a buff??

IMO, previous Scott nerf was too harsh. Especially because USF (along with UKF) doesn't have arty at stock. Now they are making near distance to 0.25. Leaving distance 0.25 ~ 2 dmg to 36.

(If stat site I'm looking at is current), barrage already suffers lack of dmg(80) compare to auto fire(100).
Yet auto fire deals 100% dmg to near distance 1. Why not just match barrage to the auto fire?


I say it should have near distance 1 AND near damage to 1 to boost use of barrage (Balance team already nerfed auto-fire in prev patch anyway)
29 Aug 2021, 14:19 PM
#2
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

It's really hard to get a "direct hit" with such small near aoe
29 Aug 2021, 14:41 PM
#3
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 483

```

Are the balance team trying to nerf it to the below-the-ground level? Or was it intended to be a buff??

IMO, previous Scott nerf was too harsh.



The M8 Scott used to be decent but was nerfed because Dual M8 Scott was too effective yet if you get Dual of anything it will be more effective. How come Katyusha/Panzerwerfer/Stuka weren't nerfed because getting two of those is far more effective than getting one.

Why aren't Panthers/Jacksons/Fireflys nerfed because getting two of them is more effective than just having one.

Even Pre-Nerf Scott was no where near as good as Katyusha/Panzerwerfer/Stuka. The upcoming change just partially reverts the nerf that butchered it into non existence while also nerfing the USF Mortar, Pak Howitzer, and Calliope since they started doing balance changes while barely touching any other factions indirect fire (minus Soviet 120MM).

Company of Heroes should be about Combined Arms but it seems the balance team wants to change the game into Company of Blobs.
Vaz
29 Aug 2021, 15:18 PM
#4
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1139

So the scott is still too powerful in it's current state? I must be the crazy one.

As USF, the scott is one of my last ditch non-doc tools to deal with bad okw players that come at me with ober/fall blobs and are incapable of micro, with a raketen wall following behind them.
29 Aug 2021, 16:54 PM
#5
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 377

Having a another look, is this some unintended nerf? Because they stated

"The M8A1 is having its barrage deal increased damage within 1m."

And yet, they nerfed 1m to 0.25.

Strange. If so, Please have the near distance rolled back in next patchset.
29 Aug 2021, 20:00 PM
#6
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 640

It is a buff. The AOE curve is better now, with 0.25m OHK radius. I did a drawing on the piece of paper, but imgur is trash on mobile, so can't upload it properly nvm. Did it on PC

29 Aug 2021, 22:12 PM
#7
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2527 | Subs: 2

It is a buff. The AOE curve is better now, with 0.25m OHK radius. I did a drawing on the piece of paper, but imgur is trash on mobile, so can't upload it properly nvm. Did it on PC


Your drawing is slightly wrong.
Old AoE goes up to 80 while it should be capped at 0.75*80=60. Also, you set the old AoE near distance to 0.75 instead of 1m.

To sum it up: old and new Scott do about 60 damage at 1m. Old Scott is pretty much capped at that point, new Scott gets an mini OHK radius and damage increases forther for shorter distances. Profile for >1m is pretty much identical.
29 Aug 2021, 22:13 PM
#8
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 890

Did it on PC


Thx for the visualisation. I took your graph and added the prepatch state before the big AOE nerf with a purple line. You can see how huge the difference is.
I added an orange line for a possible buff that would turn it in a better blob controlling machine which wouldn't affect its performance versus single units that much.




Edit:

Old AoE goes up to 80 while it should be capped at 0.75*80=60. Also, you set the old AoE near distance to 0.75 instead of 1m.


You are right, the current damage (red line) should be capped at sixty until range 0.75 or 1. I'm not sure if it is 0.75 or 1, because in the patch notes of february they stated 0.75 for near distance and now they stated 1 for near distance.

Old patch note:
Auto-fire range from 60 to 50
HE Barrage scatter max from 10 to 7
HE Barrage Damage from 100 to 80
HE Barrage AOE damage from 1/0.25/0.1 to 0.75/0.4/0.2
HE Barrage AOE distance from 1/2/3 to 0.75/2/4
HE Barrage Angle scatter from 7 to 6
HE Barrage shell count from 4 to 5
HE Barrage reload from 2.75/2.9 to 1.75/2.9
Barrage shells now use mortar explosion effects to distinguish them from auto-fire rounds.
Veterancy 2 scatter bonus now applies to the barrage instead of the unit's autofire
Smoke no longer shares a cooldown with the main barrage
Human Crush removed




29 Aug 2021, 22:51 PM
#9
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 640



Thx for the visualisation. I took your graph and added the prepatch state before the big AOE nerf with a purple line. You can see how huge the difference is.
I added an orange line for a possible buff that would turn it in a better blob controlling machine which wouldn't affect its performance versus single units that much.

When I looked at Serelia's numbers I was "holy shit, this was a long rang Sturmpanzer". No wonder it got nuked that patch xD
30 Aug 2021, 00:12 AM
#10
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 377

It is a buff. The AOE curve is better now, with 0.25m OHK radius. I did a drawing on the piece of paper, but imgur is trash on mobile, so can't upload it properly nvm. Did it on PC



So it is a buff after all.

Sorry for thr wrong post guys. Very slight buff in my taste but buff is still a buff.
30 Aug 2021, 07:27 AM
#11
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2527 | Subs: 2




I am confused myself what the current stats are. I assumed the 1m is true because it is mote in line with the text of the new changes.

Regarding your suggestion: This can only go with a larger increase to POP and price. at this performance you should not be ble to build two Scotts without leaving a gap somewhere else, since it comes near Brummbar performance.


When I looked at Serelia's numbers I was "holy shit, this was a long rang Sturmpanzer". No wonder it got nuked that patch xD

For an unit that has been updated in the last 1-1.5 years, I wouldn't take serealia for granted.
30 Aug 2021, 07:52 AM
#12
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 640


I am confused myself what the current stats are. I assumed the 1m is true because it is mote in line with the text of the new changes.

Regarding your suggestion: This can only go with a larger increase to POP and price. at this performance you should not be ble to build two Scotts without leaving a gap somewhere else, since it comes near Brummbar performance.


For an unit that has been updated in the last 1-1.5 years, I wouldn't take serealia for granted.

Numbers are from half a year ago, from patch notes. Old number from patch notes add up with Serelia's.

In essence the "new AOE" is combination of a near damage change + info from Winter Balance patch.
30 Aug 2021, 10:09 AM
#13
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 377

Will there be any chance barrage damage gets even with auto-fire?(100)
Vaz
30 Aug 2021, 11:12 AM
#14
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1139

that would throw off the balance and cause USF to win matches without skill
30 Aug 2021, 11:13 AM
#15
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 377

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2021, 11:12 AMVaz
that would throw off the balance and cause USF to win matches without skill


Wonder how Axis won prior to winter patch. It used to have 100 dmg with 1 near distance.
30 Aug 2021, 11:24 AM
#16
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12421 | Subs: 1

The main issue with scott is it ability to survive.

Long range, good HP, good mobility, barrage on the move and defensive smoke make the unit difficult to counter.

If one want to balance the unit one should probably first start with making easier to counter and then increase its lethality.
30 Aug 2021, 15:36 PM
#17
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1196

That unit need rework because right now Sherman is better against blobs and if you pick Scott only for Arty it will only force pak wall to move. That unit should lose defensive smoke but barrage range should be set on 100 and vet1 should have phosphor shell or something similar that actually will counter teamweapons.
This is hilarious how easliy okw can wipe teamweapons with stuka avalible in first truck meantime usf last tier mighty Scott barrage cant even wipe afk mg.

I swear to god if Rocket Arty in coh3 will be avalible non doctrinaly only for Axis i will never buy it.
30 Aug 2021, 16:10 PM
#18
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2527 | Subs: 2

That unit need rework because right now Sherman is better against blobs and if you pick Scott only for Arty it will only force pak wall to move. That unit should lose defensive smoke but barrage range should be set on 100 and vet1 should have phosphor shell or something similar that actually will counter teamweapons...

I agree. Both Scott and PaK Howitzer were changed to focus on the barrages only. While in general it is good that input should be rewarded instead of just parking a unit in the backline, it makes them somewhat redundant. And the Scott especially is just too expensive for that purpose. To drop smoke, or making a single unit move or maybe even retreat, the Scott is not cost effective. The PaK Howie will do, even the normal T0 will do for the purpose of pushing that MG/ATG away and dropping smoke occasionally. The M21 mortar is cheap and accessible, the PaK Howie has a decent boom and additional abilities once it vets up. The Scott has okay-ish damage, but no other goodies. Mobility? Yes. Is it worth paying that much fuel for mobility? Probably not.

If the original issue was that two of them annihilate infantry too quickly, nerf the far AoE damage and acceleration so that chasing is more difficult and dangerous. Even the turret rotation could do the trick. Currently USF is left without that late game capability to wipe units by artillery, and that's what we are seeing with their commander choices.

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2021, 11:24 AMVipper
The main issue with scott is it ability to survive.

Long range, good HP, good mobility, barrage on the move and defensive smoke make the unit difficult to counter.

If one want to balance the unit one should probably first start with making easier to counter and then increase its lethality.

But wasn't the auto fire range already nerfed to 50? That means it must stay in range of all ATGs and JP4, while being on the edge of range for all TDs.

In general I agree though, the survivability or other usability should have been targeted more than the auto attack.
30 Aug 2021, 16:31 PM
#19
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 52

main issue of Scott is survive ?
WHY DONT YOU NERF IT SURVIVE, NOT FUCKING FIREPOWER ?
AND YET WHY DELETE ABANDON OF STURMTIGER ?
FUCK OFF AND ENJOY
30 Aug 2021, 17:17 PM
#20
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 52

Just delete M8 smoke nade and make it slower. IS that enough for Survive issues ?
why Nerfing both Autofire and barrage ? FOR what purpose ? forcing USF player pick CalliOP, M7 priest so Balance team have more reason to nerf those thing to the ground ?
That is clearly how Axis can achive 60% winrate in teamgame. Nerf every blob control tool Alies can have, add new broken stuff like SturmTiger with No abandon so it can litterly reload right after firing.
Sadly, our voice in this Forum is nothing. Look at new balance beta, we called M26 need to have 260 armor from 2 months ago, not now. M8 and Howie shouldnt have those hasty nerf because you can build 2 of them ?.
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