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russian armor

I don't trust the official balance team.

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30 Aug 2021, 00:44 AM
#61
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 890



Just to give you a taste of one of the most prominent members of the balance team: Sander93

Played against him 4 times, won 2 times, lost 2 times. When I won, he insulted, blamed and just straight up trash talked his own random teammates in all chat, and our team on how he would win if he didn't get <insert insults> players.
When he won, he trash talked our random team on how we suck.
Funny thing? Each and every game he went for fussies.
Don't be surprised.


Man I hope that isn't true. Do you have something to back that up or someone else who can affirm your story at least?
30 Aug 2021, 04:18 AM
#62
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 98



Just to give you a taste of one of the most prominent members of the balance team: Sander93

Played against him 4 times, won 2 times, lost 2 times. When I won, he insulted, blamed and just straight up trash talked his own random teammates in all chat, and our team on how he would win if he didn't get <insert insults> players.
When he won, he trash talked our random team on how we suck.
Funny thing? Each and every game he went for fussies.
Don't be surprised.

If this is true this is just depressing

FFS Relic
30 Aug 2021, 06:47 AM
#63
avatar of Harry

Posts: 158



Man I hope that isn't true. Do you have something to back that up or someone else who can affirm your story at least?


I am not sure if Sander was in the balance team. But I have encountered someone called Sander before. Not sure if that was really him, but that player was super toxic.
30 Aug 2021, 06:49 AM
#64
avatar of Harry

Posts: 158

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Aug 2021, 18:17 PMRosbone

This is a very cool and insightful post! Thank you. Removing some of the mystery between races does a lot to erase the xenophobia (racism) we as humans tend to fall back on (from 100k years of evolution).

A friend of mine used to say how people from different cultures all think differently. Be it from schooling, day to day life, and even your language structure. It all affects your logic.

When we would work with people from other countries and ask important questions they would always say "Yes". No matter what we asked. But maybe Yes meant, I understand your question and not affirmitive the answer is Yes. So we would go in circles for days. Is the building on fire? "Yes".

Add this to not speaking the same language and technical issues like the shift key issue really helps explain all of the weird things you see in random games.

We need more of this. If everyone spoke the same language it would go a long way to world peace as we would have the same basis for logic, etc. And if people explained their gaming cultures maybe we could all stop spamming "NOOB" in games :)

This is why the most important thing Relic can add to COH3 is more pinging options that help communicate / coordinate things like recon, arty, pushes, etc. because many games can have 4-6 different cultures and languages. With NO WAY to talk to each other.


Great.
Good to hear this kind of positive comment.
Hopefully, they could add more team communication assistance in COH3.
APEX had already shown what a good one looks like, and I hope Relic could borrow some ideas from them.
30 Aug 2021, 09:26 AM
#66
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12421 | Subs: 1



This is the problem I have with the balance team right now. They refuse to nerf pfusi's, bunkers, etc because they're not an issue for them. Why? Don't know. Maybe it's because they have godly micro and don't think we're worthy of making changes because we're only top whatever, but not top 3. Maybe it's because they play in AT stacks of the best players and they're not an issue for them because they club everyone else because they can't have equal skill to their AT lineup. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see 90% DPS on the move units is pretty stupid and when they're picked every game maybe there's an issue.

This 90% moving DPS is simply myth, a G43 PF unit simply does not have 90% moving DPS.

G43 do have good DPS but not all entities have that the total moving DPS of the unit (that actually counts) does not actually stand out and it actually close to the cheaper Penals.

The main advantage of PF lies elsewhere, it comes from the fact that their DPS drop off when losing entities is lower because the G43 transfers.
(On the other hand that is the case for faction with weapons raks.)

The current issue with PF is the design (both commander design and units design) and not performance.

Commanders with superior armour should not have access to superior AI infantry.
Alternative mainline infantry are hard to balance since they can easily end up either end up or op. Thus the focus should be more on utility and less on combat efficiency.
30 Aug 2021, 09:48 AM
#67
avatar of Grim

Posts: 997

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2021, 09:26 AMVipper

This 90% moving DPS is simply myth, a G43 PF unit simply does not have 90% moving DPS.


Ok, whatever the true percentage is (perhaps 90 was hyperbole) it is simply too high. PF's overperform in nearly every capacity once they are upgraded. In team games it is VERY common to see a blob of three PF's with G43 roaming about. Especially if there are not enough Soviet players to punish the blob with rocket artillery.

30 Aug 2021, 09:54 AM
#69
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12421 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2021, 09:48 AMGrim


Ok, whatever the true percentage is (perhaps 90 was hyperbole) it is simply too high.

A PF squad moving DPS is similar to that of Penal battalion as far as I can remember. As Percentage of the static DPS units with SMG have also very good DPS (possibly even better).

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2021, 09:48 AMGrim

PF's overperform in nearly every capacity once they are upgraded. In team games it is VERY common to see a blob of three PF's with G43 roaming about. Especially if there are not enough Soviet players to punish the blob with rocket artillery.

I did not question weather PF are OP or not I simply provided the flaw in the justification.

As you point out PF are good once upgraded and that has a greater impact in 1vs1 than in 4vs4.

That is why I said the issue is with their design, they start weak and become strong only once upgraded..
30 Aug 2021, 09:57 AM
#70
avatar of Grim

Posts: 997

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2021, 09:54 AMVipper

A PF squad moving DPS is similar to that of Penal battalion as far as I can remember. As Percentage of the static DPS units with SMG have also very good DPS (possibly even better).


Is this prior to the G43 upgrade?
30 Aug 2021, 10:03 AM
#71
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 377

PF G43 has 0.8 moving accuracy modifier. Which makes it exceptionally good since weapon with 0.8 moving accuracy tends to deal dmg at close range while G43 can deal decent dmg starting from mid range.

Normal penal svt has 0.5 moving accuracy. So I'm assuming Vipper is trying to bring ppsh to the topic. It also has 0.8 moving accuracy modifier.
30 Aug 2021, 11:20 AM
#72
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12421 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2021, 09:57 AMGrim


Is this prior to the G43 upgrade?

No it is with the G43 upgrade.

PF G43 has 0.8 moving accuracy modifier. Which makes it exceptionally good since weapon with 0.8 moving accuracy tends to deal dmg at close range while G43 can deal decent dmg starting from mid range.

Normal penal svt has 0.5 moving accuracy. So I'm assuming Vipper is trying to bring ppsh to the topic. It also has 0.8 moving accuracy modifier.

Now calculated the total DPS of Penal battalion and G43 PF squad. The number should be pretty close as far as I remember.

This is because a PF squad only has 3 G43 and 3 K98 that are bad on the move vs 6 SVT that all are good on the move.
30 Aug 2021, 17:10 PM
#73
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2527 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2021, 09:26 AMVipper

This 90% moving DPS is simply myth, a G43 PF unit simply does not have 90% moving DPS.

Calling it a myth is wrong. If I calculated correctly, in the late game the G43 retains about 84% DPS at short range and 90% long range. Although the close DPS is more important, still the G43 retains a crazy ratio when moving.

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2021, 09:54 AMVipper

A PF squad moving DPS is similar to that of Penal battalion as far as I can remember.

Again, if my calcs are correct, late game Fusies perform between 44% short and 6% long range better on the move than Penals, with way better damage retention.

But I don't know why you mention Penals in the first place. They have nothing to do with the topic. and also work very differently in their faction.
30 Aug 2021, 17:20 PM
#74
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 52

Fissies also have nade to get you of cover, flare for spoting which is fuking unbalance compare to Riflecompany. Even late game fussi can simply A move and delete Rifle with 2 BAR.
what a joke.
30 Aug 2021, 18:57 PM
#75
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 21


Random 4v4 automatch is a shitfest of monkey apes that cant deal with the tech tree of USF and soviets.

This line made my day
30 Aug 2021, 20:11 PM
#76
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 807 | Subs: 1

Who would win 4v4 allies not knowing the tech or 4v4 axis loosing to maxim spam because ost dont need mortar.
31 Aug 2021, 01:52 AM
#77
avatar of Applejack

Posts: 304

I haven't checked the stats but I'd wager that there are a larger portion of players playing 4v4s than 1v1s. Granted a portion of those 4v4s might end prematurely due to a leaver but I'd argue that 4v4s is where the majority of the playerbase is and where coh2 is most fun.

I understand the argument that CoH2 should be all-around balanced instead of balanced around a subset of elite players solely playing 1v1. I resonate with that because I mainly play team games too but I enjoy the e-sports scene in my spare time. I think an interesting compromise can be made. In DoW2 there is a continuation balance mod made available called DoW2elite which balances the game around 1v1s.

Perhaps we can have the same here?

Have the balance team balance around team games (because thats where the majority of players are) then have a mod that is focused solely on 1v1s. Anyone wanting completely fair, 50/50 win rate, skillbased 1v1s can download a mod for that.
31 Aug 2021, 02:19 AM
#78
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 52

I haven't checked the stats but I'd wager that there are a larger portion of players playing 4v4s than 1v1s. Granted a portion of those 4v4s might end prematurely due to a leaver but I'd argue that 4v4s is where the majority of the playerbase is and where coh2 is most fun.

I understand the argument that CoH2 should be full around balanced instead of balanced around a subset of elite players solely playing 1v1. I resonate with that because I mainly play team games too but I enjoy the e-sports scene in my spare time. I think an interest compromise can be made. In DoW2 there is a continuation balance mod made available called DoW2elite which balances the game around 1v1s.

Perhaps we can have the same here?

Have the balance team balance around team games (because thats where the majority of players are) then have a mod that is focused solely on 1v1s. Anyone wanting completely fair, 50/50 win rate, skillbased 1v1s can download a mod for that.

Elitemod not only forcus on 1v1 but also give all faction basic tool so that everyone can be fight equally. They created Ordo Malius as balance factor too. As far as i know DoW2 community all stick to elite mod,
31 Aug 2021, 02:25 AM
#79
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 807 | Subs: 1


Have the balance team balance around team games (because thats where the majority of players are) then have a mod that is focused solely on 1v1s. Anyone wanting completely fair, 50/50 win rate, skillbased 1v1s can download a mod for that.


Honestly there is no point really. Relic just need to do few basic steps:

1) Give all factions all the nessesery tools to play with, in order to make commanders an addition, rather then nessesity
2) Tone down MG\Support weapons spam
3) Make arty less spammable
4) Stabilize economy by creating same income across the gamemodes and maybe removing caches

Sure some tech skips and more risky strats will still exist in teamgames, since teammate will cover your butt, but over-all with what I meantioned, even if game will balanced exclusively for 1v1 it will affect 4v4 aswell, since ... well phasing of the game will be the same.

CoH2 teamgames are broken exclusively because of the how overpowered support weapons are and how economy phasing is completly ruined. When we have up to 5 min difference when first arrive in different gamemodes there is no way you can balance the game for 1v1 and 4v4 respectively.
31 Aug 2021, 05:21 AM
#80
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1485 | Subs: 2

Why bothering balancing a game that is mostly bugsplats and toxic asshats. Dont waster yer time Relic.
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