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Pfuss vs AssEngi

16 Aug 2021, 13:25 PM
#1
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3476 | Subs: 1

Is it normal that AssEngi lose badly vs Pfuss on close combat situation, like realistically you make them turn around a corner on Pfuss and pop they still lose. Its even worst with vet.

No wonder why Armor company is the least pick commander.

16 Aug 2021, 13:45 PM
#2
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 990 | Subs: 1

I'm pretty sure you went to the cheat mod to test it and found out this insane oversight no-one managed to see before. I'm sure this thread wasnt created after few lost engagaments.
16 Aug 2021, 14:01 PM
#3
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 889

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Aug 2021, 13:25 PMEsxile
Is it normal that AssEngi lose badly vs Pfuss on close combat situation, like realistically you make them turn around a corner on Pfuss and pop they still lose. Its even worst with vet.

No wonder why Armor company is the least pick commander.


I find this hard to believe unless they tossed a nade in your face and/or some dodgy cover interaction occurred. Even StG volks lose at close range to Assengies
16 Aug 2021, 14:44 PM
#4
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 211

Thats almost impossible. Atleast on average.


DPS Range 5 Range 10 Range 15

Pfussies: 38,451 29,205 22,629

Ass Engies: 67,205 67,205 20,96

Upgraded vet 0 Pfussies have 80 HP more than Ass Engies, but i dont think that turns the tide in this engagement.
Most people dont get what Pfussies are good at. They are bad long range, good but nothing special midrange (atleast compared to other upgraded midrange focused inf like bar Rifleman or Stg Volks) and have very good short range dmg for a squad without smg (which drop dmg way faster and get terrible at midrange already). And they have stupid high moving acc.

I wish the unit would be better at long range while losing some of its close range power and moving acc. So you dot have to blob move them into enemies. But here we are.
16 Aug 2021, 14:54 PM
#5
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Aug 2021, 14:44 PMGeblobt
Thats almost impossible. Atleast on average.


DPS Range 5 Range 10 Range 15

Pfussies: 38,451 29,205 22,629

Ass Engies: 67,205 67,205 20,96

Upgraded vet 0 Pfussies have 80 HP more than Ass Engies, but i dont think that turns the tide in this engagement.
Most people dont get what Pfussies are good at. They are bad long range, good but nothing special midrange (atleast compared to other upgraded midrange focused inf like bar Rifleman or Stg Volks) and have very good short range dmg for a squad without smg (which drop dmg way faster and get terrible at midrange already). And they have stupid high moving acc.

I wish the unit would be better at long range while losing some of its close range power and moving acc. So you dot have to blob move them into enemies. But here we are.


At vet0 the result is maybe subject to RNG (although all the tests I did were won by the Pfuss) but once vet kick in there is no way you can win any engagement with the AssEng.

I found it hard to believe myself until i saw it live.



16 Aug 2021, 15:06 PM
#6
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 211

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Aug 2021, 14:54 PMEsxile


At vet0 the result is maybe subject to RNG (although all the tests I did were won by the Pfuss) but once vet kick in there is no way you can win any engagement with the AssEng.

I found it hard to believe myself until i saw it live.





Both squads get 40% bonus acc with vet, while Ass Engies get 5% more weapon cooldown reduction(25%->20%).
At max vet Pfussies have 623 effective HP, Ass Engies have 625 effective HP. I dont think veterancy changes anything.

But i havent seen Ass Engies since months. They dont seem to be viable (atleast compared to stock Rifle and there is no Calliope in their commander).
16 Aug 2021, 15:14 PM
#7
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2868 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Aug 2021, 15:06 PMGeblobt
Both squads get 40% bonus acc with vet, while Ass Engies get 5% more weapon cooldown reduction(25%->20%).
At max vet Pfussies have 623 effective HP, Ass Engies have 625 effective HP. I dont think veterancy changes anything.

But i havent seen Ass Engies since months. They dont seem to be viable (atleast compared to stock Rifle and there is no Calliope in their commander).

I have to test the matchup myself. vet0 I would be very surprised if Pfusies won. Pfusies are slightly worse than Conscripts close range at that time, while Ass Engis are basically Ass Grens that mow down everything.

Once upgraded, you shouldn't forget that Pfusies centralize their DPS way better. Ass Engis lose 20% of their DPS with each model. Pfusies transfer their valuable G43.
16 Aug 2021, 16:01 PM
#8
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Aug 2021, 15:06 PMGeblobt


Both squads get 40% bonus acc with vet, while Ass Engies get 5% more weapon cooldown reduction(25%->20%).
At max vet Pfussies have 623 effective HP, Ass Engies have 625 effective HP. I dont think veterancy changes anything.

But i havent seen Ass Engies since months. They dont seem to be viable (atleast compared to stock Rifle and there is no Calliope in their commander).


Remember that you have somehow to close in with Assgren. Even with the minimum impact, you'll be losing health on the process
16 Aug 2021, 16:28 PM
#9
avatar of Letzte Bataillon

Posts: 195

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Aug 2021, 14:44 PMGeblobt


I wish the unit would be better at long range while losing some of its close range power and moving acc. So you dot have to blob move them into enemies. But here we are.



Great suggestion. I would also like to see them rebalanced without the 6th man of the G43 upgrade, it makes no sense for the established conventions of OKW and Axis in general and it's clumsy having to wait for the upgrade and then reinforce for the 6th man.
16 Aug 2021, 17:31 PM
#10
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

Lack of Focus Fire (the statistic) is the biggest weakness of SMG teams, and why Sturmpios can seem weak sauce. FF is ALSO why Infantry Sections are so strong and were nerfed.

Spreading damage across 6 models, I could see Assault Engineers having issues.

Just tested on test map, Vet 3 w/ G43s vs Vet 3 at minimum range Assault Engineers win with 1/3 to 1/2 health. At 0 vet, its much closer but Pfusies have the edge. This does NOT include Assault Engineers needing to close the gap. AEs have the normal issue of CQC units, but lacks the tools needed to ACTUALLY close the distance, resulting in Assault Officer Syndrome. Seems good situationally, but they can't actually make that situation.

AO is getting serious juice this patch exactly because of this syndrome.

I would suggest a smoke grenade, or swap the M10 for the Pershing. Really the Pershing would fix all these issues, as Assault Engineers now have something to shove their incredible repairs into. And its called Armor Company...

Edit: fixed Combat -> Assault
16 Aug 2021, 21:16 PM
#11
16 Aug 2021, 21:21 PM
#12
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

Test it yourself. I don't have capture software nor the desire to go that distance. Download the Test map and the Tools and try it.
16 Aug 2021, 21:43 PM
#13
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 764

Since I can't play the game, because my stupid ass decided to fly over the handlebars off the bike, I'll spare some time for OP and rest off you.
jump backJump back to quoted post16 Aug 2021, 13:25 PMEsxile
Is it normal that AssEngi lose badly vs Pfuss on close combat situation

no, because they don't. Tested this with 4 vet5 pfussies vs 4 vet3 Assengies. It was not even close.
results:
https://i.imgur.com/RBI9U00.jpg
I don't even know what to discuss here, to be honest. Mr. GachiGasm sarcasm was on point.

16 Aug 2021, 23:25 PM
#14
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

Tested it myself 10 times by spawning Vet0 Pfussis and Vet0 Assgren squads directly on each other, upgrading PFs with G43 and reinforcing to 6th man. Then changed ownership.

Outcome:
4x Assgrens with 2 soldiers with 1/8 to 1/3 health left
2x Assgrens with 1 soldier and about 1/8 to 1/10 health left
4x Pfussis with 1 soldier and about 1/8 to 1/10 health left

I do think the problem in this labor situation only exists at Vet0 and maybe partly Vet1. In reality Assgrens won't teleport next to Pfussis and they have no sprint and have to rely on smoke of other units that have to be nearby.
Versus Ostheer Assgrens they perform quite even on the other hand, at the start of the match at least. Of course only until Ostheer Assgrens get 6th man upgrade going.

I do think the mix out of combat and engineer doesn't works that good. They sacrifice raw power for versatility. Sadly much of this versatility is not needed at USF roster. Repair is not that urgent and Rear Echelons are doing the constructing job just fine. I personally think I did right not playing them about 1-2 years. They are still not so great as a combat unit and I don't think their construct/repair ability makes up for that. I was better off playing Airbornes or Rangers.

Add the fact that Armor company does nothing about the most urgent problems of USF unit roster. Overall the company is just not worth it (in 1vs1 it is still the last one at loadout picks, even after latest buffs to 105mm and offmap).
17 Aug 2021, 06:19 AM
#15
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 471

Since I can't play the game, because my stupid ass decided to fly over the handlebars off the bike, I'll spare some time for OP and rest off you.

no, because they don't. Tested this with 4 vet5 pfussies vs 4 vet3 Assengies. It was not even close.
results:
https://i.imgur.com/RBI9U00.jpg
I don't even know what to discuss here, to be honest. Mr. GachiGasm sarcasm was on point.



Have you upgraded G43 to pfuss?
I have not tested it by myself, but I see few people having different test results with you.
17 Aug 2021, 07:01 AM
#16
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3476 | Subs: 1

Since I can't play the game, because my stupid ass decided to fly over the handlebars off the bike, I'll spare some time for OP and rest off you.

no, because they don't. Tested this with 4 vet5 pfussies vs 4 vet3 Assengies. It was not even close.
results:
https://i.imgur.com/RBI9U00.jpg
I don't even know what to discuss here, to be honest. Mr. GachiGasm sarcasm was on point.



Perform unrealistic tests, obtain unrealistic results. :gimpy:
17 Aug 2021, 08:21 AM
#17
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 764

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2021, 07:01 AMEsxile


Perform unrealistic tests, obtain unrealistic results. :gimpy:

before creating this ranting thread, how many any tests have you performed exactly?
17 Aug 2021, 08:40 AM
#18
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3476 | Subs: 1


before creating this ranting thread, how many any tests have you performed exactly?


What are you trying to demonstrate here? That if you spawn both squads on each other AssEng win? Cool then show me how you do it on a real environment.
17 Aug 2021, 09:24 AM
#19
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 764

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Aug 2021, 08:40 AMEsxile


What are you trying to demonstrate here? That if you spawn both squads on each other AssEng win? Cool then show me how you do it on a real environment.

the effort is proportional to the thread you've created, my man. Nothing more nothing less.

put that aside, grease guns have very bad moving accuracy. That is why units with PPsH, e.g. cqc AirGuards do not have the same issue, even though having worse vet bonuses
17 Aug 2021, 10:08 AM
#20
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2868 | Subs: 2

put that aside, grease guns have very bad moving accuracy. That is why units with PPsH, e.g. cqc AirGuards do not have the same issue, even though having worse vet bonuses

PPSh and grease guns don't differ much in their stats. Moving affects them both similarly, losing about 25% of their static DPS.
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