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CoH2 Summer 2021 Balance Patch - BETA

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17 Aug 2021, 10:12 AM
#141
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 694

IMO AVRE and Stormtiger could like coh1 AVRE,maingun be cost ammo ability,but add different weapon for them.
Like AVRE and ST hull MG change to HMG and could pain infantry,AVRE turret MG change to,ST default weapon be HMG + grenade.
And some buff for USF RM plz.
Reduce Volks cost plz,OKW light armor HQ change like USF HQ,let Panzer2 come early but Puma late,Panzer HQ deploy need medic HQ and light armor HQ deploy or T2 or T3 full upgrade.
17 Aug 2021, 14:23 PM
#142
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1557



In a vacum from static positions. The avre is strong no doubt but within their respective factions the ST imo is a stronger unit imo. The ST is picked a lot more. But then again you dont see brits used a lot and maybe its used as much percentidge wise.

Cost shouldn't really take faction as a factor though.
17 Aug 2021, 15:56 PM
#143
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1799 | Subs: 1

After briefly playing as Brits against AI I feel like the mass MP reductions should be closely watched/possibly scaled back. Some things like Bolster can probably stay the same cost as it already provides a good power spike and I don't think it would be good to make it too easy to pull off Section Spam strategies where it's too easy to fully upgrade them and support them with AEC/UC. Especially since they reinforce faster now and you will have more MP to support your Section death ball. It really risks Brits becoming too MP efficient and back to frustrating Section strats that are frustrating to play against (especially if OST has a nerfed Sniper that won't be as good to use against Brits). I do think it's fair to consider MP reductions for things like Bofors, Grenades, and Weapon Racks that are generally under utilized and a littler harder to squeeze into build orders.

I love the Assault Officer changes. But with the Assault Officer's added utility he can also probably stay at 320MP or even closer to 300. Doesn't really make sense that a unit like that should cost the same as Main Lines IMO. Also, his Coordinated Barrage can be used in the FOW without sight - I imagine this is an oversight.
17 Aug 2021, 16:38 PM
#144
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1156


Cost shouldn't really take faction as a factor though.


Really? I think it well mostly. Some units counterparts are more expensive or cheaper because of the faction they are in compared to other factions. Taking into account the units that can come with it.
17 Aug 2021, 16:40 PM
#145
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 485




How many Sections is Section Spam? 4 or 5? Most factions run 4 mainlines. Id be up for buffing Engies further to replace more IS, but they would need more broad based changes.
17 Aug 2021, 18:29 PM
#146
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1799 | Subs: 1



How many Sections is Section Spam? 4 or 5? Most factions run 4 mainlines. Id be up for buffing Engies further to replace more IS, but they would need more broad based changes.


I use the term loosely to refer to Section-focused strategies where it's obvious that the goal is "Bolster early and outmuscle Infantry engagement". The actual number isn't as important IMO as to the BO where all early investments go to building more sections and upgrades and the ease as to which that can be done without being punished through good play.
17 Aug 2021, 18:34 PM
#147
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 775



I use the term loosely to refer to Section-focused strategies where it's obvious that the goal is "Bolster early and outmuscle Infantry engagement". The actual number isn't as important IMO as to the BO where all early investments go to building more sections and upgrades and the ease as to which that can be done without being punished through good play.


Hmm, sounds like I ought to brush up on my camping behind sandbags builds (talking 3v3 here). Even today I go a two volks into two ISGs build, because the early UKF can shoot you off the field easily. So rather than take huge losses, just temporarily concede the field and then hit them with ISGs + MG.
17 Aug 2021, 18:50 PM
#148
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1799 | Subs: 1



Hmm, sounds like I ought to brush up on my camping behind sandbags builds. Even today I go a two volks into two ISGs build, because the early UKF can shoot you off the field easily. So rather than take huge losses, just temporarily concede the field and then hit them with ISGs + MG.


I mean obviously this is just theory craft on my part and game mode dependent but I feel like Section Spam is kind of the default "if I'm going to abuse/cheese with Brits it's this" and making ALL side tech cheaper is a pretty surefire way to encourage this style of play.
17 Aug 2021, 20:07 PM
#149
avatar of IntoTheRain

Posts: 170

I wonder if they could just backload some of the starting stats of sections onto their vet.

The starting power of sections is enormous, but their vet is fairly weak compared to the bonuses of other mainlines iirc. Moving some of that cover bonus onto the vet might be a way to make some tradeoffs in their overall power.

Really though they need to keep focusing more on the options for Brits. I don't know that anyone is interested in more Section Spam or Bofors becoming mainstream in 1v1.
17 Aug 2021, 21:46 PM
#150
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 775



I mean obviously this is just theory craft on my part and game mode dependent but I feel like Section Spam is kind of the default "if I'm going to abuse/cheese with Brits it's this" and making ALL side tech cheaper is a pretty surefire way to encourage this style of play.

Yeah, having been on the receiving end of one recently, I can't say I'm looking forward to even more IS spam. Bren blob is nasty as is even late game.
17 Aug 2021, 21:55 PM
#151
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 622

I think 120mm should be toned down a little, or perhaps moved into more obscure commanders. It is way to good on its own and lately it is a common strat to spam them in 2v2. Because of their range, the only effective way to counter them with OST is leFH, because werfer rarely delivers at long ranges.

https://www.twitch.tv/hoijimmy890/clip/ClumsyIncredulousSmoothieLitty-lrzWnBB-f-5hODoN
18 Aug 2021, 00:36 AM
#152
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 485

120mm has been the only consistent tool I've seen for dealing with spammed machine guns in an urban area. And its REALLY STRONG. Especially backed with 1.1 OHK radius T-34/85s. Essen Steelworks is only humane with 120mms.

On another note, all the tanks with 1.1 OHK radius should be toned down to mitigate wipe power.
18 Aug 2021, 01:35 AM
#153
avatar of Applejack

Posts: 294

I think Sturmtiger is fine as it is. It needs to be made a little less durable because you don't really risk all that much from having it pop in and fire at max range then pop out. Its waaaay too durable for its cost and what it does.

Lowering range might expose it more to counter-fire but lowering durability while keeping range will for sure make it less overbearing.
18 Aug 2021, 04:28 AM
#154
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 942

That list is grasping.

From what I can tell, the list is factually accurate. It may not be optimal in terms of gameplay, but it does contain all of the non-doc upgrades and abilities available to a single IS squad, as well as one entry for "doc abilities" - at least all that I'm aware of. If this list is factually incorrect, I'd be happy to update it.

Nobody in their right mind would equip them with PIATs.

While true, it is still an option. If IS' were incapable of equipping it, I wouldn't have listed it. However, the intent was to list every ability, utility and upgrade.

Any infantry can benefit from commander buffs, for all factions, there is nothing (anymore) that specifically or permanently buffs IS.

The UKF ability "Defensive Operations" (Adv. Emplacement) grants abilities only to IS and Assault IS (and interestingly not RE's, even though the tooltip says it does), and "Advanced Cover Bonus" (Mobile Assault) buffs only IS - not even Assault IS.

Yes they can build caches, but nobody wants to sacrifice the valuable time of their mainline infantry for that.

Again, much like the Piats, while not optimal it is an option available to them.

They're also lacking one of the most important abilities of a mainline infantry, which is a snare.
I agree, but I don't think missing a snare makes up for their incredible utility in every other area. I would much prefer that their utility was brought inline with other units in exchange for a standard snare.

I'm not a fan of buffing the side tech costs either, but to state that IS have a "comically" long list of utility is simply false. Compared to other mainlines such as Volks, and with the fact in mind that they are more integral to the faction than most other mainlines, it is not that special.


Compared to Volks, I would consider their list of abilities comical.
Volks:
  • StG44 Package (takes all weapon slots)
  • Build sandbags
  • Flame grenade
  • Faust (snare)
  • Salvage
  • Additional abilities from doctrines

That's 6 'abilities', compare to IS' 11, and doesn't mention that some of the IS' abilities are arguably better. While yes, IS' are core to the faction, I would argue they are no more core than USF's Rifles, which have far less utility. Furthermore, many of the IS' abilities could easily be moved to other units, or could be removed due to redundancy.

Construction could be completely removed with no consequence (short of sandbags), the mills bomb could be made a squad upgrade that replaces the gammon creating a trade-off between the two, the pyro upgrade could be moved to REs and/or snipers (snipers already have coordinated fire), medical supplies could take a weapon slot (trade-off with weapon upgrades), and as I mention later, the stealth detection pyro buff could also be move elsewhere. Doing all of that cuts IS' abilities in half, without a drastic loss in IS' power, while also encouraging build diversity rather than 5x IS every match. Additionally, it would free up space to add a snare - something UKF could use.

The UC already has stealth detection, but against 18 range faust Grens it is simply not viable to use it in that role against snipers or camo Grens.

Compared to OKW's main detection unit, the Kubel, the UC is quite good (more HP, more armor). However, if the UC isn't viable in all situations, perhaps move the detection to the AEC (similar to the Luchs and 222), or possibly another infantry unit (REs?).

As-is, this massively nerfs Axis camo units such as Storms or Falls, while also allowing IS' to effectively "face check" for camo'd units, due to their high DPS.

Additionally, Axis is currently having massive issues with detecting cloaked Commandos, yet I don't think Ost T4 granting Grens/Pgrens +15 detection would be the right answer.

Construction of caches has already been added to REs.

Yes, and it's still available to IS.

And as much as we'd like to we can not overhaul Bolster, as Relic will not allow any such major changes anymore.

It doesn't need an overhaul, just a trade-off. Perhaps unlocking bolster gives a 'free' (0 resource) upgrade to IS, but it takes one weapon slot when equipped similar to OST's VSL. As-is, there is no reason to not take it every single game, preferably as soon as possible - which will be easier, now that it's less expensive.
18 Aug 2021, 07:19 AM
#155
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 622

120mm has been the only consistent tool I've seen for dealing with spammed machine guns in an urban area. And its REALLY STRONG. Especially backed with 1.1 OHK radius T-34/85s. Essen Steelworks is only humane with 120mms.

On another note, all the tanks with 1.1 OHK radius should be toned down to mitigate wipe power.

the problem is that it is way too accurate and hits like a truck everything. 1 accurate hit and squad is no longer fit for combat
18 Aug 2021, 09:19 AM
#156
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 478

Generally like the Ostruppen nerfs, but the Sturmtiger is still too strong and the AVRE is absolutely going to be OP in this patch. Buffing the AVRE is pretty clueless imo, already a strong unit in the current patch in a decent commander. This is very similar to when they buffed Sturmtiger while it was already in a good commander.
18 Aug 2021, 09:58 AM
#157
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2514 | Subs: 2

Can someone from the balance team elaborate why they think these changes are necessary? If what UKF really lacks is artillery, then why are all changes not touching artillery? Add +5-10 range on the arty flares at vet3 or something, and suddenly UKF has some decent form of late game arty.


The list of things one infantry section can do is completely comical at this point.
  • 2x Brens
  • 2x Piats
  • Gammon Bomb Grenade
  • Mills Bomb Grenade
  • Pyrotechnics Supplies Upgrade (artillery/smoke call-in) – Blocks Medic upgrade
  • Medical Supplies Upgrade (healing) – Blocks Pyro upgrade
  • Bolster (+1 model)
  • Build Sandbags
  • Build Fuel/Muni Caches
  • Additional abilities from doctrines
  • New: Stealth detection (+15 range with pyro)
And now, on top of all that utility being available on one unit, most of it is being made even cheaper, with the bonus of making the AEC arrive earlier. This isn't the right move - IS' need to be doing less things, and those things need to be moved to other units. Then we'll see some interesting build diversity instead of 5x double-upgraded IS every game.

I agree with the conclusion, but not some of the points you list. No one is going to build another IS because they can be equipped with PIATS or build a cache. Bolster is also not really a "utility", it is a way of scaling UKF infantry into the mid game which other units do by veterancy.
The fact that UKF build orders almost always go into 4xIS is a testimony of how shittily Relic designed UKF in the first place. They don't have any options. Moving RE to T0 was indeed a help to slightly diversify. Unlike other factions, there is no alternative to main line infantry, no non-doc elite infantry (and even with commandos you'd only get one of them), not even really a light vehicle to carry you. From minute 0 to the Cromwell, everything is IS by design.

But even if we want to move some utilities from that list to other units: Where to? REs? UKF is one of the few factions that can play without pioneers until the mid game. The officer could take the smoke arty, but this leaves UKF with a huge gap in artillery and smoke. This ability replaces the missing mortar in the line up. Other factions can get fairly early mortars with very decent range for smoke and barrages, restricting UKF to only one unit with less range to call it in would need compensation by making this ability stronger. Same thing goes for the sniper.
Point is: Smoke is a crucial mechanic. Restricting it to a unit where you can only get one of, would induce more balance changes. Also, if this ability is so crucial, you won't get more diverse builds. UKF players are now forces to build 3xIS into officer instead of 4x IS. Better unit diversity? Yes. Better build diversity? Nope.
18 Aug 2021, 10:58 AM
#158
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

Brits are insanely strong in this build. They surely do not deserve the mp cuts to bolster and AEC, not without a nerf to IS starting cost
18 Aug 2021, 11:46 AM
#159
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 480

Can someone from the balance team elaborate why they think these changes are necessary? If what UKF really lacks is artillery, then why are all changes not touching artillery? Add +5-10 range on the arty flares at vet3 or something, and suddenly UKF has some decent form of late game arty.



My guess is that Relic has a list of restrictions and to change UKF's low win rate they had to undo some of the nerfs they did that butchered the faction.
18 Aug 2021, 13:52 PM
#160
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1166

Can someone from the balance team elaborate why they think these changes are necessary? If what UKF really lacks is artillery, then why are all changes not touching artillery? Add +5-10 range on the arty flares at vet3 or something, and suddenly UKF has some decent form of late game arty.


I agree with the conclusion, but not some of the points you list. No one is going to build another IS because they can be equipped with PIATS or build a cache. Bolster is also not really a "utility", it is a way of scaling UKF infantry into the mid game which other units do by veterancy.
The fact that UKF build orders almost always go into 4xIS is a testimony of how shittily Relic designed UKF in the first place. They don't have any options. Moving RE to T0 was indeed a help to slightly diversify. Unlike other factions, there is no alternative to main line infantry, no non-doc elite infantry (and even with commandos you'd only get one of them), not even really a light vehicle to carry you. From minute 0 to the Cromwell, everything is IS by design.

But even if we want to move some utilities from that list to other units: Where to? REs? UKF is one of the few factions that can play without pioneers until the mid game. The officer could take the smoke arty, but this leaves UKF with a huge gap in artillery and smoke. This ability replaces the missing mortar in the line up. Other factions can get fairly early mortars with very decent range for smoke and barrages, restricting UKF to only one unit with less range to call it in would need compensation by making this ability stronger. Same thing goes for the sniper.
Point is: Smoke is a crucial mechanic. Restricting it to a unit where you can only get one of, would induce more balance changes. Also, if this ability is so crucial, you won't get more diverse builds. UKF players are now forces to build 3xIS into officer instead of 4x IS. Better unit diversity? Yes. Better build diversity? Nope.


Simple really. It's a quasi-feeling. Go throughout the patch history of the brits and you will see nerf after nerf. In steady, small doses. Ratio of nerfs to buffs was >1 and so patch after patch brits had more substantial nerfs than buffs.
Now they try to undo it in one large sweep, and feels like the brits are getting large buffs out of the blue.
Basically the expression "Brick by brick and you get a palace"
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