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USF and MP bleed

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11 Aug 2021, 23:18 PM
#21
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 580


Not really relevant imho as one is locked behind Tier 4 (fighting for your life with volks) and the other you purchase after getting a standing army of grens/Osttruppen/MG(s).



That is not completely true. OKW has options to help out volks like PF, JLI, Falls and machine gun to slow down enemy blobs until Obers show up.

The second statement is even stranger since every other army would be purchasing their respective elites after having a standing army. Assault grens can be built without T1 so that is savings that can be used towards making PG while osttruppen are dirt cheap so aside from micro nothing is stopping the player from making at least 1 PG. Also since PG can come without T2 they can hit the field around 4 mins which leaves them as a massive power spike.
11 Aug 2021, 23:28 PM
#22
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 889



That is not completely true. OKW has options to help out volks like PF, JLI, Falls and machine gun to slow down enemy blobs until Obers show up.

The second statement is even stranger since every other army would be purchasing their respective elites after having a standing army. Assault grens can be built without T1 so that is savings that can be used towards making PG while osttruppen are dirt cheap so aside from micro nothing is stopping the player from making at least 1 PG. Also since PG can come without T2 they can hit the field around 4 mins which leaves them as a massive power spike.

I was talking nondoc as Esxile talked about superior stock elite infantry. If you add doc in, then PF blob shows up by midgame and they don't even need Obers. Hell they can just meme with Falls or in the case of UKF (ab)use JLI until the UKF player RQs. MG34 is not a real issue imho considering the plethora of USF smoke abilities.

Realistically you won't get PGs that quickly, unless your opponent is being strangely lax (1v1) or it's teamgames (which is another matter entirely). Having such a weak force out there is asking to get shot to pieces by allied mainlines outnumbering you, esp Rifles. To that end OST extremely often get a Sniper instead vs USF, which slows down the arrival of PGs even more.
11 Aug 2021, 23:29 PM
#23
avatar of RifleMan

Posts: 52

I think most of the problem lies in weak USF tech.
If you don't tech captain you don't get any anti tank gun. Zooks cost muni and bleed way too much manpower and renders the squad useless versus infrantry.

Why doesn't USF get anti tank gun independent of the tech choice like all other factions in the game?
12 Aug 2021, 01:05 AM
#24
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 580


I was talking nondoc as Esxile talked about superior stock elite infantry. If you add doc in, then PF blob shows up by midgame and they don't even need Obers. Hell they can just meme with Falls or in the case of UKF (ab)use JLI until the UKF player RQs. MG34 is not a real issue imho considering the plethora of USF smoke abilities.

Realistically you won't get PGs that quickly, unless your opponent is being strangely lax (1v1) or it's teamgames (which is another matter entirely). Having such a weak force out there is asking to get shot to pieces by allied mainlines outnumbering you, esp Rifles. To that end OST extremely often get a Sniper instead vs USF, which slows down the arrival of PGs even more.


I understand he said superior stock elite, so there is no reason to disqualify any of the doc units since they don't lock out getting Obers. But I do agree with you Volks alone until Obers is asking for a hard time against every faction.

For the PG, not sure what you mean by weak force. What I used to see was MG/Grenx3 and depending on player and doc they made 4th gren or tech so that PG could be built. Then they would go T2 later on for AT gun for LV. Snipers seem to be more on the elite players since most of us plebs lose it to bad micro/brain farts.
12 Aug 2021, 01:23 AM
#25
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 761 | Subs: 1


in the case of UKF (ab)use JLI until the UKF player RQs.


why are JLI in particular abusable vs UKF?
unrelated question, but still
12 Aug 2021, 04:22 AM
#26
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

JLI hard counter Sections, which is the main UKF crutch. Just better at range.
12 Aug 2021, 06:59 AM
#27
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3475 | Subs: 1


I was talking nondoc as Esxile talked about superior stock elite infantry. If you add doc in, then PF blob shows up by midgame and they don't even need Obers. Hell they can just meme with Falls or in the case of UKF (ab)use JLI until the UKF player RQs. MG34 is not a real issue imho considering the plethora of USF smoke abilities.

Realistically you won't get PGs that quickly, unless your opponent is being strangely lax (1v1) or it's teamgames (which is another matter entirely). Having such a weak force out there is asking to get shot to pieces by allied mainlines outnumbering you, esp Rifles. To that end OST extremely often get a Sniper instead vs USF, which slows down the arrival of PGs even more.


Didn't know RM poped out fully equiped with BARs...

When PG hit the field around 4 minutes there are at maximum 1 BAR equip on 1 squad when the munition isn't kept for zook on the lieutenant. So the PG is at that time the best infantry on the field.

When Obers Hit the field, Volks are at their Peak, they're fully equipped with STG and RM usually have their own 1 BAR on each squad making them slightly superior to Volks but worse on the ratio MP/bleed. Obers hit the field around 8-10 minutes when you're starting equipping x2 BARs on RM and once they reach vet2 they simply dominate everything.

Sometime you should read those patch notes and balance team's comments, you'll understand that what I'm describing is as per their design, I'm not inventing anything here. Everything has been made in the last patches to reduce Axis "inferior" infantry on the early and mid game while keeping their superior infantry strength on the late game. AKA PG available before T2 built, Obers available before Shwere wagon fully UP.

The "bleed" or manpower issue is just a resultant of those changes, I'm not agreeing with the OP though because I don't think that its USF that bleed too much but Ostheer and OKW that don't bleed anymore, I've been watching many replays in the last months on focusing on this particular aspect of the game and OKW never bleed even when pushed back. You really have to fuck up extremely hard to feel the bleed as OKW.

One of the major side effect of this lack of bleed allow the easiness for OKW and Ostheer to build 2 Atgun midgame and render USF light and mediums tanks useless increasing the aspect of being incapable to bleed their opponent while bleeding a lot.
12 Aug 2021, 12:20 PM
#28
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 580

I think the biggest issue is like Vaz said the efficiency of OKW bleed. There reinforce is all over the place but as a percentage they are on the lower side compared to other factions.

I will put the percentage to fully reinforce based on purchase price but I can put cost if someone wants.
OKW:
Unit %
Sturm 30
Volks 38.4
Fussi 37
JLI 37.5
Fall 31.8
Ober 35.2

Ost:
Pio 37.5
Gren 37.5
Ostr 40
PGren 30
JCS 40
AssG 37.1
Storm 29

Allies

RE 34.5
Rifle 40
LT 40
CPT 40
AssE 40
Path 31
Rang 36.6
Para 38.9

Engi 37
Cons 41.6
T4 37.5
Penal 46.5
T4 43.1
Guard 37.5
Shock 41.6

So over the course of a game this leads to the OKW manpower float which directly allows for the blob to form and be maintained.

Edit: Added OST and a couple other units.
Looking at the % it makes sense for OST to have wonky reinforce for some units due to relying on support weapons more. However OKW is infantry heavy and the reinforce is to low for its mainline compared to the Allied faction. This means with equal deaths OKW will be able to save up to build more units while allies are just trying to keep Units fully reinforced. I think just increasing the reinforce cost for early units would solve several problems people are having with OKW blob. It would slow it down considerably while being a soft nerf to Fussie blob, VG blob with Obers.
12 Aug 2021, 13:51 PM
#29
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2868 | Subs: 2



So over the course of a game this leads to the OKW manpower float which directly allows for the blob to form and be maintained.

How and why? What is the reason that reinforcement cost per squad cost are a good metric for bleed? Your metric shows how much a player is punished for almost losing a squad compared to completely losing it, not how much bleed the squad will cause for your economy.

You can even see this in your own metric: Conscripts are probably the squad that causes the least bleed in the whole game, yet they are apparently worse than Sturmpioneers, the one OKW squad that every good player says to never build more than one of? PGrens apparently don't bleed much as well?

It doesn't take into account the most important information: When does a model die? You could quadruple the health of Grenadiers and your metric wouldn't show it.


Edit: Added OST and a couple other units.
Looking at the % it makes sense for OST to have wonky reinforce for some units due to relying on support weapons more. However OKW is infantry heavy and the reinforce is to low for its mainline compared to the Allied faction. This means with equal deaths OKW will be able to save up to build more units while allies are just trying to keep Units fully reinforced. I think just increasing the reinforce cost for early units would solve several problems people are having with OKW blob. It would slow it down considerably while being a soft nerf to Fussie blob, VG blob with Obers.

Just to point it out here again: Equal K/D for a Conscript build is actually an awesome performance and a sign that OKW will lose. You trade 20 MP Conscripts/21 MP engis vs 25 MP Volks and 30 MP Sturms. That's actually perfect. Even if you'd assume that squads only get retreated with 1 model left, you'd pay 5x20 MP for Conscripts and 4x25 MP for Volks. Even at a negative K/D, you're still not trading down.
Vaz
12 Aug 2021, 17:05 PM
#30
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1145

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2021, 06:59 AMEsxile


Didn't know RM poped out fully equiped with BARs...

When PG hit the field around 4 minutes there are at maximum 1 BAR equip on 1 squad when the munition isn't kept for zook on the lieutenant. So the PG is at that time the best infantry on the field.

When Obers Hit the field, Volks are at their Peak, they're fully equipped with STG and RM usually have their own 1 BAR on each squad making them slightly superior to Volks but worse on the ratio MP/bleed. Obers hit the field around 8-10 minutes when you're starting equipping x2 BARs on RM and once they reach vet2 they simply dominate everything.

Sometime you should read those patch notes and balance team's comments, you'll understand that what I'm describing is as per their design, I'm not inventing anything here. Everything has been made in the last patches to reduce Axis "inferior" infantry on the early and mid game while keeping their superior infantry strength on the late game. AKA PG available before T2 built, Obers available before Shwere wagon fully UP.

The "bleed" or manpower issue is just a resultant of those changes, I'm not agreeing with the OP though because I don't think that its USF that bleed too much but Ostheer and OKW that don't bleed anymore, I've been watching many replays in the last months on focusing on this particular aspect of the game and OKW never bleed even when pushed back. You really have to fuck up extremely hard to feel the bleed as OKW.

One of the major side effect of this lack of bleed allow the easiness for OKW and Ostheer to build 2 Atgun midgame and render USF light and mediums tanks useless increasing the aspect of being incapable to bleed their opponent while bleeding a lot.



I would actually agree on your bleeding comment. I never really feel like it's too much bleed as USF, it's just that I have such a hard time making the other guy bleed at a certain point in the game, so he's able to keep his army value extremely high, where I am stuck at mp levels less than 1 rm (280mp). All of my MP goes towards reinforcing in this losing battle, while the opponent can push out additional units if not pop capped. Remember, this is not talking about everyone who plays okw, but someone who is roughly at the same level you are, an even match.
Vaz
12 Aug 2021, 17:06 PM
#31
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1145

I also want to add that 37mp for obers is an absolute steal, they are worth twice that in combat.
12 Aug 2021, 17:23 PM
#32
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 580


How and why? What is the reason that reinforcement cost per squad cost are a good metric for bleed? Your metric shows how much a player is punished for almost losing a squad compared to completely losing it, not how much bleed the squad will cause for your economy.

You can even see this in your own metric: Conscripts are probably the squad that causes the least bleed in the whole game, yet they are apparently worse than Sturmpioneers, the one OKW squad that every good player says to never build more than one of? PGrens apparently don't bleed much as well?

It doesn't take into account the most important information: When does a model die? You could quadruple the health of Grenadiers and your metric wouldn't show it.


Just to point it out here again: Equal K/D for a Conscript build is actually an awesome performance and a sign that OKW will lose. You trade 20 MP Conscripts/21 MP engis vs 25 MP Volks and 30 MP Sturms. That's actually perfect. Even if you'd assume that squads only get retreated with 1 model left, you'd pay 5x20 MP for Conscripts and 4x25 MP for Volks. Even at a negative K/D, you're still not trading down.


To start, I should have specified that I think an easy fix would be an increase in reinforce to ONLY Volks and Fussies by about 2-3MP, this over the course of the early to mid-game it would slightly delay Raks or elite infantry.

Now for your first point SOVIETS/USF/OKW are all infantry focused factions with their respective mainlines taking up similar popcap. What other metric then reinforce cost would you use for bleed. The point is to go out and make sure the enemy loses more than you do. One of the only units that does not do this and is designed not to do this is the Conscript. In the early to mid game I think we can agree Sturmpioneers are going to beat Conscripts badly and you know inflict bleed. The player now has to reinforce which slows other stuff down, Sturms are expensive and have a very narrow weapon profile which does not scale well compared to the other multiple options they have.
Also Pgrens come at a later time which has already been stated, an army has already been made so MP generation is reduced while also having a double impact of high POP cost. However when they hit they hit hard. They will demolish most early game units from BOTH USF and Soviets. So in the economy exchange, K/D it causes more bleed then it receives. That is literally the point of ELITE infantry for every faction. PGren arrive earlier than other Elites such as Para/Rangers which means they will have more VET so they can cause model drops leading to MP bleed.
I feel infantry is fairly closed to balance so I never brought up received acc or health of infantry so not sure what the point of that statement was. Wouldn't initial cost/pop cap/reinforce cost/upgrade cost all work together to decide performance of a unit such as DPS/range/durability? That would be outside of the scope of what I presented.

For your second point, you seem to have latched on the conscript most likely due to your argument being much weaker using literally every other unit. As stated Conscripts are one of the only units designed to lose models in that fashion and still maintain faction economy. You took a general statement and focused on a K/D that would never happen. Sticking with what you said under the constraints which is early-mid game trying to slow down the blob. Volks aren't losing 4 units once they get STG which is a stock upgrade that happens way before Mobile reserves and should hit before SVT or PPSH upgrades. So your example is worst case scenario for the OKW player, which once again means they are bleeding less.

Since you seem to be fairly against what I said. I want ask some fairly straight forward questions.
1) Do you believe OKW float MP? If yes why?
2) Do you believe OKW blob is not a problem especially Fussies? If yes how would you fix it.
Vaz
12 Aug 2021, 18:12 PM
#33
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1145

bleed has a few components and they are both objective and subjective

Objective components:

1. Efficiency
2. Reinforce cost

Subjective components:

1. Player skill
2. RNG


12 Aug 2021, 18:30 PM
#34
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 580

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Aug 2021, 18:12 PMVaz
bleed has a few components and they are both objective and subjective

Objective components:

1. Efficiency
2. Reinforce cost

Subjective components:

1. Player skill
2. RNG




Matchmaking is supposed to pair up players of similar skill as much as possible so not to big of a deal. We all know RNG only affects blue units. All my homies hate RNG.
12 Aug 2021, 21:22 PM
#35
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2868 | Subs: 2

To start, I should have specified that I think an easy fix would be an increase in reinforce to ONLY Volks and Fussies by about 2-3MP, this over the course of the early to mid-game it would slightly delay Raks or elite infantry.

Now for your first point SOVIETS/USF/OKW are all infantry focused factions with their respective mainlines taking up similar popcap. What other metric then reinforce cost would you use for bleed.

There is no exact metric for bleed. Bleed is caused by small arms, for which we can estimate a metric based on reinforcement cost / effective health to at least get a durability value of "how much damage must be applied before I need to pay for a model". I also literally once proposed a model for infantry comparisons which is still in the signature.
Second, bleed is caused by AoE weapons. There is obviously no perfect metric for that, but MMX has done some great work with the calculator he published.

The point is to go out and make sure the enemy loses more than you do. One of the only units that does not do this and is designed not to do this is the Conscript. In the early to mid game I think we can agree Sturmpioneers are going to beat Conscripts badly and you know inflict bleed. The player now has to reinforce which slows other stuff down, Sturms are expensive and have a very narrow weapon profile which does not scale well compared to the other multiple options they have.

First off, I was only criticizing the metric you use to support your claims. Your metric does not logically show what you want to show, nor do larger parts of your numbers reflect what at least my personal experience is. And since I've been around this forum for a while and know what people usually complain about, I'll make the far fetched claim that I am by far not alone). That was my sole point.

Now, to the specifics:
Sturms beat most early infantry because of their high damage and (for the timing) good RA. As you said, they do not scale well (4 men CQC squads are not a good deal). How does your metric reflect that? It doesn't, because your metric does not adjust for veterancy or weapon upgrades, which are a huge part in determining infantry strength. Chances are, if your metric can't adjust to the core scaling mechanisms, it will only be able to reflect the unit in one specific state. Therefore, drawing a generalized statement from it does not work.


Also Pgrens come at a later time which has already been stated, an army has already been made so MP generation is reduced while also having a double impact of high POP cost. However when they hit they hit hard. They will demolish most early game units from BOTH USF and Soviets. So in the economy exchange, K/D it causes more bleed then it receives. That is literally the point of ELITE infantry for every faction. PGren arrive earlier than other Elites such as Para/Rangers which means they will have more VET so they can cause model drops leading to MP bleed.
I feel infantry is fairly closed to balance so I never brought up received acc or health of infantry so not sure what the point of that statement was. Wouldn't initial cost/pop cap/reinforce cost/upgrade cost all work together to decide performance of a unit such as DPS/range/durability? That would be outside of the scope of what I presented.

But that's not the case. Grens and Volks work differently because they have stock elites as backup. IS work differently because UKF as a whole is a huge mess. Sturms are the only engineer unit designed for combat. Obers are OKW's replacement for a late game AI vehicle. Faction context matters. And while I agree that by far and large most outliers have been moved closer to the rest of the bunch, the initial cost and reinforcement cost are not a good indicator. Bleed is a measure of durability and cost, but offensive power factors into it as well. But in the end, it will still be that: How resistant your squad is to losing MP. Reinforcement cost obviously is a factor, but not really the initial cost, unless we talk about squad wipes.

The point of the health statement was to make clear where your metric falls short: It does not take actual durability into account. Increasing the health of a squad lowers the bleed, yet your metric does not detect any of that. It is actually completely insensitive to any RA modifiers.


For your second point, you seem to have latched on the conscript most likely due to your argument being much weaker using literally every other unit. As stated Conscripts are one of the only units designed to lose models in that fashion and still maintain faction economy. You took a general statement and focused on a K/D that would never happen. Sticking with what you said under the constraints which is early-mid game trying to slow down the blob. Volks aren't losing 4 units once they get STG which is a stock upgrade that happens way before Mobile reserves and should hit before SVT or PPSH upgrades. So your example is worst case scenario for the OKW player, which once again means they are bleeding less.

I used Conscripts since they are the most obvious example. There are others in your list that also do not make fully sense. Osttruppen score very high in your metric, PGrens score super low although those are classic units that get bled by LVs. Stormtroopers score super low despite next to no one buying two of them because they'd cost too much MP to reinforce. In your metric, replacing all Grens with Storms or at least PGrens should be super beneficial. But in reality that's a classic for bleeding yourself dry of any MP. Even Rifles, Captain and Lieutenant beat vanilla Volks, upgraded versions beat upgraded Volks (which they should since they are more expensive). Yet Volks are better in your metric. Captain has exactly the same value as the Lieutenant despite being a worse unit. Again, your metric does not show what you want to show. It does not show bleed, it shows what the benefit is of keeping a squad (barely) alive compared to building it new. Because that's exactly what you're calculating: The (relative) cost difference of replenishing the squad compared to the cost of building a new one.

You also touch another point that I initially didn't mention for brevity:
Why is everything calculated to lose exactly one man less than possible? Basically no squad is supposed to do that. All players will retreat if there are 2-3 models left, depending on the squad. Larger squads like Osttruppen and Cons will retreat with rather 3, smaller squads like Obersoldaten and Grens with rather 1-2 men. How do you account for CQC units needing to close in (and surely losing a model on the way), whereas long ranged units can stay in the back and eat minimal damage? This is not accounted for at all.


Since you seem to be fairly against what I said. I want ask some fairly straight forward questions.
1) Do you believe OKW float MP? If yes why?
2) Do you believe OKW blob is not a problem especially Fussies? If yes how would you fix it.

To 1) Can't really tell since i have not played much OKW in the last two months. When I played it, I regularly floated but that's exactly the reason why I am a shitty OKW player.
To 2) Pfussi blob can be a problem at least in team games. Volks not so much. For Pfussies, I'd have their moving accuracy slightly nerfed in exchange for an early game buff or some slightly better RA or something.
12 Aug 2021, 22:35 PM
#36
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 580

Thanks for the detailed response. I feel that makes a lot more sense then what you said earlier. You are right, the quick calculations do not take into account RA at all however most units don't get their modifiers until VET2-VET3 which I purposely was trying to focus on the early game to about CP3 which only a handful would be at Vet2. At that point more indirect start to be used or available and like you said random wipes start to get introduced which will cause problems.
The reason I went with fully depleted units was to simplify between odd and even number squads. Like you said smaller squad would retreat earlier then larger. Regardless, I like what you presented, it makes sense yet it still leaves me wondering where the MP could be caused by. Even watching high level players go at it, OKW always seems to be able field more squads and keep them on the field where the opp needs to win each battle decisively to get ahead.

Going off topic:
Obers being late game AI fells weird with P4J being so good at it along with nerfs to rocket arty which were a hard counter.
I feel fussi blob is cancer in all game modes, however your suggestion would help a lot with sniping retreating units.
13 Aug 2021, 09:25 AM
#37
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3475 | Subs: 1

Thanks for the detailed response. I feel that makes a lot more sense then what you said earlier. You are right, the quick calculations do not take into account RA at all however most units don't get their modifiers until VET2-VET3 which I purposely was trying to focus on the early game to about CP3 which only a handful would be at Vet2. At that point more indirect start to be used or available and like you said random wipes start to get introduced which will cause problems.
The reason I went with fully depleted units was to simplify between odd and even number squads. Like you said smaller squad would retreat earlier then larger. Regardless, I like what you presented, it makes sense yet it still leaves me wondering where the MP could be caused by. Even watching high level players go at it, OKW always seems to be able field more squads and keep them on the field where the opp needs to win each battle decisively to get ahead.

Going off topic:
Obers being late game AI fells weird with P4J being so good at it along with nerfs to rocket arty which were a hard counter.
I feel fussi blob is cancer in all game modes, however your suggestion would help a lot with sniping retreating units.


The other way around to reduce the MP available is to increase the popcap and I think the +1 on HMG is a good move, making dual HMG less interesting by increasing the cost of maintenance and reducing overall faction army size possible.
13 Aug 2021, 10:56 AM
#38
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2868 | Subs: 2

Thanks for the detailed response. I feel that makes a lot more sense then what you said earlier. You are right, the quick calculations do not take into account RA at all however most units don't get their modifiers until VET2-VET3 which I purposely was trying to focus on the early game to about CP3 which only a handful would be at Vet2. At that point more indirect start to be used or available and like you said random wipes start to get introduced which will cause problems.
The reason I went with fully depleted units was to simplify between odd and even number squads. Like you said smaller squad would retreat earlier then larger. Regardless, I like what you presented, it makes sense yet it still leaves me wondering where the MP could be caused by. Even watching high level players go at it, OKW always seems to be able field more squads and keep them on the field where the opp needs to win each battle decisively to get ahead.

I think this comes down mostly to faction design. OKW is designed to have the upper hand in the first minutes until Allied LVs get onto the field. Early on, Sturms need to secure the lead (unupgraded Volks are actually nothing special). Once there are multiple squads on the field, Sturms lose their shock power since they cannot 1v1 other squads as easily anymore. At this point, StGs kick in and Volks need to take the burden. Depending on the faction matchup, this usually gets negated once the T70 or weapon racks are purchased. Allies are constantly being pushed. If not defended properly, OKW can pile up MP in this time. Afterwards, T1 OKW needs to defend itself against a usually superior Allied LV or in T2 stem the bleed itself due to the lack of medics.


Going off topic:
Obers being late game AI fells weird with P4J being so good at it along with nerfs to rocket arty which were a hard counter.
I feel fussi blob is cancer in all game modes, however your suggestion would help a lot with sniping retreating units.

P4J is a good tank, but it can neither burst nor is it really that efficient vs infantry. Soviets have a cheap T34 to deal with infantry, USF the HE Sherman, UKF the Centaur, OST Brum and Ostwind. OKW has nothing similar without doctrine, that's why they get a very efficient long range elite.
Panzerfusiliers are not THAT much stronger than Volks if it comes to static DPS, especially considering that they take a POP more.
13 Aug 2021, 17:37 PM
#39
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660


Snip

I just want to say that nerfing Panzerfusiliers on the move accuracy is a bad way of balancing them since they'll further get closer to being volks 2
The fact that Panzerfusiliers lost their extra weapon slot means that balancing the unit around 5 men with 3 g43, and increasing their early game AI performance and initial RA with a proper cost increase and reinforce increase that reflects the power of the unit in late game.
Turning Panzerfusiliers into another cover fighter unit in a faction full of stock cover fighters won't add much. Just make Panzerfusiliers actually bleed.
Also their extra sight range doesn't make much sense
13 Aug 2021, 20:20 PM
#40
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2868 | Subs: 2


I just want to say that nerfing Panzerfusiliers on the move accuracy is a bad way of balancing them since they'll further get closer to being volks 2
The fact that Panzerfusiliers lost their extra weapon slot means that balancing the unit around 5 men with 3 g43, and increasing their early game AI performance and initial RA with a proper cost increase and reinforce increase that reflects the power of the unit in late game.
Turning Panzerfusiliers into another cover fighter unit in a faction full of stock cover fighters won't add much. Just make Panzerfusiliers actually bleed.
Also their extra sight range doesn't make much sense

I agree. However, my suggestion brings their late game closer to Volks, you suggestion the early game

The design wise best thing in my opinion would be to give them 4-5 G43s, but make those worse(yes, yet another G43 I know). In the end, a full squad would still have high moving DPS, but they are susceptible to model losses. Currently, Pfusies are not until they lose their fourth model. Damage wise it does not matter as much if a 3 men or 6 men squad is moving. They are a large squad with fairly concentrated DPS, especially concentrated moving DPS. This should be somehow kitigated, either by allowing counterplay via model drops or, if not possible, nerf their overall DPS a bit.
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