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russian armor

Buff Allied "Heavy Tanks"

7 Aug 2021, 10:26 AM
#81
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 764



So compared to Pershing Tiger has 30 extra armor and reloads are

if 30 armor was the only thing that differentiated Tiger from M26, Pershing would have been in a great spot. cough..health..cough
7 Aug 2021, 10:54 AM
#82
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 889

USF having a 'heavy' tank was dodgy even in COH1 where a vet 0 Tiger could realistically defeat a vet III Pershing. Had a far better player than I curse it out when that happened. Nothing's really changed in that regard iirc.
7 Aug 2021, 11:44 AM
#83
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 761 | Subs: 1



In the Pershing you're basically getting a Panther in tank vs tank, but it fires HE shells at infantry. Panther is a tank destroyer whose anti-infantry capability is purely mg-based dps, so it's terrible against retreating squads/vetted/elite infantry/yellow cover, and has to stay stationary within snaring range to deal damage.

I like how the two or three people complaining in this thread keep comparing Heavy Tank vs Panther as if Heavy Tanks fired only AP rounds and weren't used mainly for bleeding infantry and as spearheads for pushes. It's 99% a L2P issue.

Use heavy tanks vs infantry and not in long-range brawls with tank destroyers. If a single Panther is killing your Pershing (moves faster than a p4, with armour and health of a Panther) or your IS2 (takes an average of more than 1 minute to for a Panther to kill an IS2 by itself), what the heck are you doing with your 15 apm? Just....reverse?


But you really don't need to use the panther as anti-infantry though, you have the best non-doctrinal anti-infantry tank in the game and rocket arty in the same tier, the panther instead has amazing tank and AT stats, because Wehrmacht is designed with extremely strong specialist tanks. Ignoring that fallacy aside, people are annoyed that the panther can basically neutralize a visibly more expensive allied heavy tank (that you can get only one of), on top of standing right in front of them. A tiger's easily gonna beat allied TDs if they stand right in front of them, but panther has considerable armor and 960 HP, it has almost as much durability as your praised IS-2 does


all that would be a fine thing, if the tiger wasn't better than both of these tanks, for the same cost. truly bizarre, innit? not only does the go out of it's way and kill infantry better than the is-2 is supposed to, but it has a mobility buff and potentially smoke, so you will really hardly kill one of these.

Now, for the """spearhead""" method - you aren't gonna do that lol, you are NOT a king tiger, you wont delete squads if you simply look at them, hell, you are an obese T-34/85, not a heavy tank. The enemy isn't stupid, two paks will follow your IS-2 and will not simply let you farm meager models with the horrible scatter your gun has.

I saw maybe three is-2s being used in the last 2 or so months, but i saw dozens and dozens of tigers in the meanwhile, saw more tigers in 1 match than IS-2s since june.


15 APM might even be advanced for axis players, god forbid i ever see such an enemy in my game
7 Aug 2021, 11:58 AM
#84
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 761 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Aug 2021, 05:05 AMMMX


accuracy of the main gun practically doesn't matter in tank vs infantry fights. in fact, the pershing even has 20% higher base acc than both the tiger and the is-2, but the chance to directly hit a model are still only 4-5%.

what you probably mean is the main gun scatter, which basically determines how far from the target position the fired rounds stray on average. here the tiger is king as it has the lowest scatter out of all heavies, plus it receives a 10% reduction at vet2 on top of that which neither the is-2 nor the pershing get.
and speaking of the is-2, the tank does indeed have the worst scatter out of all heavies, but it's only slightly inferior to that of the pershing and still much lower than that of almost all medium tanks. in fact, the HE sherman has nearly identical scatter to the is-2, and i rarely ever hear anyone calling the sherman an rng cannon.

yeah, my bad, i meant scatter.

Maybe i should've paid for a ~120 fuel sherman that does an identical job versus infantry as my 230 fuel pak magnet

Or used the mobile fridge that actually hits infantry consistently (kv-2). Sad fate for a tank comparable to the king tiger, left in the dustbin of "used by oblivious players once, never again"
7 Aug 2021, 12:36 PM
#85
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1482

People saying that the Panther being able to take on allied heavy tanks is bad forget to mention that the Panther is expensive. If you lose one, you lose a lot more than an allied player losing a TD. And while I don't consider the 10 range advantage on allied TDs to be such a big deal, it is big enough of a deal that you get the first shot in, and the enemy tank has to close it, which means that the first hit will probably be a miss (moving accuracy). So using the Panther as some sort of excuse to buff allied heavies is wrong. Pershing needs a buff, but not because of the existence of a Panther, but because it costs 630 MP and 230 fuel and does pretty much every job a heavy is supposed to do (soak hits, deal damage, be a breakthrough unit) much worse than comparable heavies/premium mediums. MMX wrote facts, and by those facts alone, the Pershing needs a price buff or survivability/AI buff.

IS-2 is unreliable but still has pure stats that make up for it, and when it does hit, it hits hard.

KV2 is an excellent tank all around.
Churchill is a good soak for the Firefly
KV1 is also a pretty good heavy tank. Not really a favourite after the nerf, but sill decent enough, especially for the price.

I can't help but notice that every time I play the Heavy Cav I pretty much shoot myself in the foot in 3v3s and lose 50+ ranks, and when I play any sort of arty (let's be honest, pak howi and scott are downright useless after the nerfs in teamgames) I easily win most games. With 270 armour and a mediocre RNG cannon, Pershing is not really doing much in teamgames.
8 Aug 2021, 19:30 PM
#86
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 764

IS-2 is unreliable but still has pure stats that make up for it, and when it does hit, it hits hard.

Its AI is pretty good. While the scatter is one of the worst from heavy tanks, it is still fairly good, definitely better then what premium mediums have. I got my ass handed to me by it in several matches while playing OST.
9 Aug 2021, 19:30 PM
#87
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

I'd fix the IS-2's scatter, as that lack of reliability is just miserable. Nerf AI if you must, but I want to consistently do serious damage. Its why the Tiger I is still solid, and consistently picked.
MMX
10 Aug 2021, 05:21 AM
#88
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

I'd fix the IS-2's scatter, as that lack of reliability is just miserable. Nerf AI if you must, but I want to consistently do serious damage. Its why the Tiger I is still solid, and consistently picked.


I'd honestly say the scatter on the IS-2 is fine. Sure, not every shot will connect, especially while moving, but the huge AoE makes sure you deal at least some damage quite consistently. Though I wouldn't mind a small scatter reduction with Vet just as the Tiger gets... arguably the IS-2 would benefit even more from it.
10 Aug 2021, 14:33 PM
#89
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486


Its AI is pretty good. While the scatter is one of the worst from heavy tanks, it is still fairly good, definitely better then what premium mediums have. I got my ass handed to me by it in several matches while playing OST.


The Premium Mediums have GREAT scatter, just worst AoE in the game on slow reloading guns. Built 4 E8s last night and it took multiple volleys to make a squad retreat. While still getting slapped by Panthers. We all knew the balance team intentionally underpowered the AI on those 'generalist' tanks to prevent deathballs.
10 Aug 2021, 14:38 PM
#90
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2021, 05:21 AMMMX


I'd honestly say the scatter on the IS-2 is fine. Sure, not every shot will connect, especially while moving, but the huge AoE makes sure you deal at least some damage quite consistently. Though I wouldn't mind a small scatter reduction with Vet just as the Tiger gets... arguably the IS-2 would benefit even more from it.


Right now much of the IS-2s power is locked behind Vet 2 where it gets the range and accuracy to be consistent in the -5ish shell fights. Giving it scatter at Vet 2 too would make the IS-2 a rolling death machine if ever allowed to Vet. Its a LOT of Exp to vet, so that does sound fun. Basically, the opponent would get 10 minutes of warning before Vet 2, due to seeing the IS-2. Kinda like a Vet 3 or 4 Tiger.
10 Aug 2021, 15:32 PM
#91
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 764



The Premium Mediums have GREAT scatter, just worst AoE in the game on slow reloading guns. Built 4 E8s last night and it took multiple volleys to make a squad retreat. While still getting slapped by Panthers. We all knew the balance team intentionally underpowered the AI on those 'generalist' tanks to prevent deathballs.

AFAIK P4J has better scatter then P4H, same with t34-85 vs t34-76 and havies have better scatter then those guys. So you get a combination of a very decent scatter parameters by current COH2 stats and superb AOE. And reloads are really not that bad. AFAIK Pershing has similar reload times to P4 and IS-2 is maybe 20% slower, but it has insane MGs with an AOE nuke. You definitely can get some value out of them, they are not bad, maybe not tournament level good, but definitely fit for ladder. Won't pick any of those guys apart from KT with Panzer Commander in big teamgames, that's for sure, but they are more then fine for 1v1 imo.
10 Aug 2021, 16:10 PM
#92
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486




Ah, you're right. The P-4J is superb, with great scatter strapped to the 1.13 80 dmg radius. I was thinking the Allied Premium Mediums after the Comet nerf, 76mm nerf, and E8 revision.

The Pershing's AoE is pretty close to the IS-2, just with MUCH better scatter. Fixing the scatter would make the IS-2 similar. Pershing has WORSE scatter scaling than the IS-2, but about 25% less max scatter. As is easily seen at max distance shots. Slightly better AoE strapped to MUCH better scatter makes the Pershing consistently murder infantry and the IS-2... miss.

Give it the Tiger's Vet 2 scatter buff.
10 Aug 2021, 16:31 PM
#93
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 764



Ah, you're right. The P-4J is superb, with great scatter strapped to the 1.13 80 dmg radius. I was thinking the Allied Premium Mediums after the Comet nerf, 76mm nerf, and E8 revision.

The Pershing's AoE is pretty close to the IS-2, just with MUCH better scatter. Fixing the scatter would make the IS-2 similar. Pershing has WORSE scatter scaling than the IS-2, but about 25% less max scatter. As is easily seen at max distance shots. Slightly better AoE strapped to MUCH better scatter makes the Pershing consistently murder infantry and the IS-2... miss.

Give it the Tiger's Vet 2 scatter buff.

Yeah, I think Pershing could get some love, but I'd rather see a price decrease, because this amount of hp and armor is too little for that price. I used it, like it a lot, but the price stings too much.
10 Aug 2021, 16:45 PM
#94
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486


Yeah, I think Pershing could get some love, but I'd rather see a price decrease, because this amount of hp and armor is too little for that price. I used it, like it a lot, but the price stings too much.


Yep. I dont think a better Pershing is required. Its just kinda pricey for the game state it enters in. A vehicle that requires the worst engies in the game to fix it and is fighting dedicated Heavy Tank Destroyers without the AT to contest them either needs more stats or less cost. The Tiger has similar issues, which it solves with raw combat power and high speex engies (upgraded pios have a huge repair rate). The Damage Reduction helps. Shaving 10-20 fuel off it would probably be all it needs to feel worth it. It slaps inf well enough and the Commander is pretty good in general. Pricing it the same as other heavy tanks doesnt make much sense due to the limits of AI CoH requires and the limited AT in its design.
10 Aug 2021, 17:36 PM
#95
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 764



Yep. I dont think a better Pershing is required. Its just kinda pricey for the game state it enters in. A vehicle that requires the worst engies in the game to fix it and is fighting dedicated Heavy Tank Destroyers without the AT to contest them either needs more stats or less cost. The Tiger has similar issues, which it solves with raw combat power and high speex engies (upgraded pios have a huge repair rate). The Damage Reduction helps. Shaving 10-20 fuel off it would probably be all it needs to feel worth it. It slaps inf well enough and the Commander is pretty good in general. Pricing it the same as other heavy tanks doesnt make much sense due to the limits of AI CoH requires and the limited AT in its design.

that actually is not a problem if you have any other tank on the field, since you can use their crew, for example Jackson's, to help repair it. The REs are on par with other engies, but they don't have any upgrades to increase their repair speed tho. So I don't think Pershing is in a bad stated repair wise, at least it didn't seem that way when I was using it. Also the max range HVAP shreds madly.
12 Aug 2021, 05:06 AM
#96
avatar of Ashmole

Posts: 61



Yep. I dont think a better Pershing is required. Its just kinda pricey for the game state it enters in. A vehicle that requires the worst engies in the game to fix it and is fighting dedicated Heavy Tank Destroyers without the AT to contest them either needs more stats or less cost. The Tiger has similar issues, which it solves with raw combat power and high speex engies (upgraded pios have a huge repair rate). The Damage Reduction helps. Shaving 10-20 fuel off it would probably be all it needs to feel worth it. It slaps inf well enough and the Commander is pretty good in general. Pricing it the same as other heavy tanks doesnt make much sense due to the limits of AI CoH requires and the limited AT in its design.

I'd be fine with all stats and cost/popcap as is if you could have two of them considering how close the stats are to the Panther.
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