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17pdr SP M10 "Achilles" in CoH3?

21 Jul 2021, 15:06 PM
#1
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 512

I know we already have the Archer tank in game but what if the British could get the 17 pdr M10 as a doctrinal tank? Maybe it could even replace the Black Prince?


It would feature the same powerful gun as the Archer or the Black Prince but would have a turret (unlike the Archer) would be historical accurate (unlike the Black Prince) and would have a decent speed (unlike Archer and Black Prince; max Speed of Achilles is 51 km/h, max Speed of Archer is 24 km/h, max Speed of BP is about 14 km/h), could get a top mounted machine gun (unlike the Archer) also I think that it has thicker armor than the Archer (but thinner armor than the BP)




Link to the post on the Dev. forum
Pip
21 Jul 2021, 15:12 PM
#2
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1414

I know we already have the Archer tank in game but what if the British could get the 17 pdr M10 as a doctrinal tank? Maybe it could even replace the Black Prince?


It would feature the same powerful gun as the Archer or the Black Prince but would have a turret (unlike the Archer) would be historical accurate (unlike the Black Prince) and would have a decent speed (unlike Archer and Black Prince; max Speed of Achilles is 51 km/h, max Speed of Archer is 24 km/h, max Speed of BP is about 14 km/h), could get a top mounted machine gun (unlike the Archer) also I think that it has thicker armor than the Archer (but thinner armor than the BP)




Link to the post on the Dev. forum


Honestly the Comet is the most fitting tank to replace the BP, I feel. It has slightly thinner armour, but comparable armament, and has the benefit of being very visually distinct from any of the Churchill variants.

A comet could have exactly the same statline as the BP and it wouldn't be at all unbelievable.

The M10 has really rather paper-thin armour in comparison. If you wanted to use a tank like /that/, then the Firefly makes far more sense... But still would be difficult to "believe" if it had a statline anything like a BP, since its pretty much just a Sherman with a very large gun. They arent uparmoured, and it wouldnt really make sense for them to be more durable than a regular Sherman.
21 Jul 2021, 15:16 PM
#3
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 512

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jul 2021, 15:12 PMPip


Honestly the Comet is the most fitting tank to replace the BP, I feel. It has slightly thinner armour, but comparable armament, and has the benefit of being very visually distinct from any of the Churchill variants.

A comet could have exactly the same statline as the BP and it wouldn't be at all unbelievable.


I have to agree that it would be more fitting to replace the BP but the Achilles would be more fitting for Italy (and also a new tank that was never before seen in CoH (at least I think so)). Just give the Achilles some add-on armor on its model and it could get similar frontal armor stats as the BP





(those are M10s wihtout 17 pounder but it isn't that much of a stretch to think that add-on armor was used on the 17 pounder versions too, maybe I can even dig up a picture of that)
21 Jul 2021, 15:46 PM
#4
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 168

Just some from wikipedia:
-The British had planned to convert some 1,000 M10s into 17pdr armed variants for Normandy, but for some reason conversions were not started until April 1944

-The Comet entered active service in January 1945

I think the Archer is the only tank within game period that had the 17pounder, but its a game so some things could be overlooked for the purpose of balance/fun
21 Jul 2021, 19:52 PM
#5
avatar of LordRommel
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 265 | Subs: 1

Achilles SPG in Italy: 93rd Anti tank Regiment, Royal Artillery.
Other 17pdr vehicles:
Archer SPG: 314th Battery, 105th Anti-Tank Regiment, Royal Artillery.
Sherman Firefly: There is a photo of a Firefly crossing a pioneer Bridge over the river Santerno, Imola, in April 1945 (British Armor in Sicily and Italy by Dennis Oliver. p.68).

This are all 17pdr i could identify for the italian theater of operations.

Other "long weapons > 75mm":
Churchill Mk VII - the "heavy Churchill": 21st Tank Brigade
Sherman IIa - 76mm M1 L/55: 2nd Dragoon Guards and 1st Armored Division
M4A1(76)W: 1st US Armored Division
M4A3(76)W: 1st US Armored Division
M4A3E8: 1st US Armored Division - some Easy8 were shipped in early 1945 to support the US tank forces in Italy.
"US Firefly" - Sherman IC 'Firefly' > 12 Fireflys were acquired by the C Company, 755th US Tank Battalion, March 1944
M18 Hellcat: 805th US Tank Destroyer Battalion, late 1944, Italy.
21 Jul 2021, 20:07 PM
#6
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3085 | Subs: 7

Just give the Achilles some add-on armor on its model and it could get similar frontal armor stats as the BP


Sure, just gotta weld on basically another tank to the front armor. Yes the Achilles could be added, but not as a replacement in the role of a generalist heavy tank. That makes no sense. It was a lightly armored open top tank destroyer.
21 Jul 2021, 20:09 PM
#7
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 512


Sherman Firefly: There is a photo of a Firefly crossing a pioneer Bridge over the river Santerno,


I just stumbled over this very picture in the book "British Armor in Sicily and Italy" by Dennis Oliver

In this book it is also stated that the 6th Armored Division had 35 Fireflys on April 7th 1945. I just hope that it isn't some kind of error since I also read that the Achilles sometimes is also refered to as "Firefly", but considering that there is a picture that (probably) shows a Sherman Firefly this seems rather unlikely

Also there are some pictures in this book that show 25 pdr "Bishops" being used in Italy which even go as late as December 1943 (I think there was someone questioning whether there were Bishops in Italy but I might misremember).








Sherman Firefly in Italy:

21 Jul 2021, 20:12 PM
#8
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

Big yes to the Achilles.

Big no to the Comet unless they focus on its historical role as a cruiser, not the all around brawler we have currently in CoH2. The Comet should have good speed and a good gun, but armor should not be of one it's strongpoints.

Despite the Black Prince's fakeness I think it's still cool because it really does fill in a whole in most allied rosters, so big yes to the Black Prince.
21 Jul 2021, 20:15 PM
#9
avatar of LordRommel
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 265 | Subs: 1

We are talking about the british 6th Armored Division or the South African 6th Armored Division ^^
Well. Basing on the british TOE there were some Fireflys.
The fact that the US forces got 12 Fireflys in 1944 is an indication for me that the Firefly was available in sufficient numbers in the italian theater of operation. The fact is that the lack of german armor didnt forced the allies to field big tank guns.
On the other side was the US army in Italy: The US 1st Armored Division was asking all the time for more 76mm gun tanks because they could deal with bunkers and emplacements far better compared to the "weak" 75mm gun.

So at the end there are some "big gun tanks".
And the Achilles was one of the tanks and with a M10 model ingame i think that there is a chance for the Achilles because it is a model variation.

Despite the Black Prince's fakeness I think it's still cool because it really does fill in a whole in most allied rosters, so big yes to the Black Prince.

The "Black Prince" doesnt fit a "whole in allied rosters". The Churchill VII could be used here. The armor was bigger compared to the Tiger and the gun is sufficient to deal with any threat in the CoH combat dimensions.
21 Jul 2021, 20:16 PM
#10
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449



Actually on the topic of SPGs it would be nice to allow them to direct fire, giving USF and UKF a similar tank of the same role as the Jagdtiger and ISU.
21 Jul 2021, 20:36 PM
#11
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 512



Sure, just gotta weld on basically another tank to the front armor. Yes the Achilles could be added, but not as a replacement in the role of a generalist heavy tank. That makes no sense. It was a lightly armored open top tank destroyer.


The Achilles being able to bounce a Panther round because it has an additional tank track welded to its front is still more realistic than BP being a thing : p (but yea ... it being a generalist heavy would be too much. But a bit stronger frontal armor would be ok I guess)

21 Jul 2021, 21:25 PM
#12
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449



The Achilles being able to bounce a Panther round because it has an additional tank track welded to its front is still more realistic than BP being a thing : p (but yea ... it being a generalist heavy would be too much. But a bit stronger frontal armor would be ok I guess)


They should just make it a Jackson clone for the British, but that would also interfere with the role of the Comet (if they were to implement it realistically and not as the dumb brawler we have right now).
22 Jul 2021, 02:44 AM
#13
avatar of cochosgo

Posts: 301

Brits already have the Archer with guaranted hit and pen on the first hit while static.

If you let a turreted 17pounder in the game you are gonna open the gates to germans getting Panthers, Tigers, King Tigers, Elephants and something-tiger-only-5-were-produced. Then we get the coh2 arms race where mediums desintegrate left and right because AT weapons need to counter the mandatory 1000hp 320armor behemots every match
22 Jul 2021, 07:19 AM
#14
avatar of waasdijki

Posts: 53

Brits already have the Archer with guaranted hit and pen on the first hit while static.

If you let a turreted 17pounder in the game you are gonna open the gates to germans getting Panthers, Tigers, King Tigers, Elephants and something-tiger-only-5-were-produced. Then we get the coh2 arms race where mediums desintegrate left and right because AT weapons need to counter the mandatory 1000hp 320armor behemots every match


except for the king, every one of those had been used in italy. I wouldn't be surprised if relic also added them to the game eventually
22 Jul 2021, 08:12 AM
#15
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 512

Brits already have the Archer with guaranted hit and pen on the first hit while static.

If you let a turreted 17pounder in the game you are gonna open the gates to germans getting Panthers, Tigers, King Tigers, Elephants and something-tiger-only-5-were-produced. Then we get the coh2 arms race where mediums desintegrate left and right because AT weapons need to counter the mandatory 1000hp 320armor behemots every match


except we already have a turreted 17 pounder in the game. The BP.

All I am doing is trying to at least replace this thing with something that was at least used.

Also Tiger, Panther are confirmed(Panther is even in the game (?)) and Elephant might come too sooner or later since it was used in Italy. I hope Tiger II will stay out of the game though.
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