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Is the Black Prince supposed to be some kind of easter egg?

16 Jul 2021, 04:50 AM
#101
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

i don't see why we're getting hung up on it, but not the chaffe for example. (Though personally I wouldn't care if it was gone, I'm guessing they added it to give a rival heavy for bongs)


Because the Chaffee was used in Italy and WW2. The Black Prince was not used in WW2 and thus also not used in Italy
16 Jul 2021, 08:58 AM
#102
avatar of Grim

Posts: 997

I'll take unit diversity at the expense of a little realism.
16 Jul 2021, 09:27 AM
#103
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jul 2021, 08:58 AMGrim
I'll take unit diversity at the expense of a little realism.


Why not take both? As Butcher alrady said: There are so many tanks that could fit and would be new but instead we get old stuff (Pz 4, Wirbelwind) mixed with new historical inaccurate stuff

I didn't see the M3 Lee so far (perhaps I missed it, I saw someone mention that it is mentioned in the game files), I didn't see a Panzer 3 so far, I didn't see Kangaroos so far (the British also converted some Shermans into Kangaroos in Italy), I didn't see a 17pdr Achilles so far (don't know if they were used in Italy but seems likely since it was the second most common TD of the British in 1944)

There is enough new stuff that could be added. No need for historical inaccurate stuff (especially since I don't see how Black Prince could be balanced without turning it into something that is very similar to the normal Churchill anyways)

16 Jul 2021, 13:25 PM
#104
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 862

[Damn this site for timing out. I wrote a long response and it disappeared.]

Kangaroos and Achilles are a good example of why you shouldn't look for "historicalness" in this game. So many more of them were produced than any Tiger II, ostwind or Puma, and they were designed better and were more reliable.

Allied heavy tank counters are added because Axis heavy tanks appear in every battle. The counters were designed on the possibility or fear that they would be needed, but in truth they weren't. They weren't needed in real life because Axis heavy tanks were rare, poorly conceived in design, and unreliable.

But if you are going to use the excuse of "but they at least existed" to explain why every battle in COH has Tigers and panthers in every engagement, then it makes sense for the Allied players to get the counters to those tanks that were designed. Even the PIV was more limited than any medium tank, and arguably its design very deficient in its late war design. The chassis and powerplant were just never up to supporting what was being asked of it by that stage.

Another good example are FG42s. Sure you can find the proof that it was a superior squad automatic weapon to the BAR, but you can't win a war making 7,000 FG42s (the first few thousand of which were flawed) against an enemy that makes 1 million BARs. That only counts if somehow the US player happens on the engagement that somehow has Tigers, Tiger IIs, ostwinds, FG42s, Pumas, stg43s, stg44s and sturmtigers. (to just write that out shows how ridiculous is this whole argument).

* yes, I know there weren't 1 million BARs. "Only" 350,000.
16 Jul 2021, 13:52 PM
#105
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jul 2021, 13:25 PMAvNY
[Damn this site for timing out. I wrote a long response and it disappeared.]

Kangaroos and Achilles are a good example of why you shouldn't look for "historicalness" in this game. So many more of them were produced than any Tiger II, ostwind or Puma, and they were designed better and were more reliable.

Allied heavy tank counters are added because Axis heavy tanks appear in every battle. The counters were designed on the possibility or fear that they would be needed, but in truth they weren't. They weren't needed in real life because Axis heavy tanks were rare, poorly conceived in design, and unreliable.

But if you are going to use the excuse of "but they at least existed" to explain why every battle in COH has Tigers and panthers in every engagement, then it makes sense for the Allied players to get the counters to those tanks that were designed. Even the PIV was more limited than any medium tank, and arguably its design very deficient in its late war design. The chassis and powerplant were just never up to supporting what was being asked of it by that stage.

Another good example are FG42s. Sure you can find the proof that it was a superior squad automatic weapon to the BAR, but you can't win a war making 7,000 FG42s (the first few thousand of which were flawed) against an enemy that makes 1 million BARs. That only counts if somehow the US player happens on the engagement that somehow has Tigers, Tiger IIs, ostwinds, FG42s, Pumas, stg43s, stg44s and sturmtigers. (to just write that out shows how ridiculous is this whole argument).

* yes, I know there weren't 1 million BARs. "Only" 350,000.


[always Copy text before hitting the "Reply" button]

So what you are saying is: Axis have lots of Heavies in CoH so let's give allies stuff that never saw combat because this stuff (supposedly) didn't see combat because there were not that many heavies in real life?


First of all: Iirc Panther were actually more common that Panzer 4s on the western front and the Black Prince was not cancelled because there were not enough Heavies for it to fight but because there were other, better options such as the Firefly.

This is no valid argument (even if the Black Prince truly was cancelled due to lack of Heavies)otherwise we might as well implement the T 28 Tortoise. The only thing that should matter is whether it was used or not. Whether it might have been used if there were special circumstances is irrelevant



16 Jul 2021, 14:08 PM
#106
avatar of AvNY

Posts: 862

Oh geez, just give it up already!

You want the fantasy of being able to call in one of the fanciful units? (and it is a fantasy). You will have to deal with the fact that Allied counters will have to also become commonplace.

What I am saying is if the Axis get the fancy kit the wehraboos want to fap over, and if that fancy kit actually works in the game as it did in the designers mind rather than on the battlefield, then the Allies will have to get a counter.

Your choice... do you want it to be an equally fanciful working allied heavy tank design or 4-5x the mediums. or do you want to have a 10% die roll at the start of an engagement to even see if you get to call in a heavy at all?

16 Jul 2021, 14:46 PM
#107
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jul 2021, 14:08 PMAvNY
Oh geez, just give it up already!

You want the fantasy of being able to call in one of the fanciful units? (and it is a fantasy). You will have to deal with the fact that Allied counters will have to also become commonplace.

What I am saying is if the Axis get the fancy kit the wehraboos want to fap over, and if that fancy kit actually works in the game as it did in the designers mind rather than on the battlefield, then the Allies will have to get a counter.

Your choice... do you want it to be an equally fanciful working allied heavy tank design or 4-5x the mediums. or do you want to have a 10% die roll at the start of an engagement to even see if you get to call in a heavy at all?



Lol. How it it a "Fantasy" to be able to call in a Panther or Tiger I ? Those did serve in Italy
And no ... just because I want to be able to call those things on the battlefield I don't have to deal with Allies getting Tanks that were never used.

Also Tiger I and Panther did actually work in real life, stop with your "10% die roll" or "it did not work on the battfield" nonsense. Yes, Tiger I and Panther did have problems but saying that everyone is a Wehraboo who doesn't think that those things were trash is nonsense.

Also Allied did have Counters to Panther and Tiger I. This is what makes it even more nonsensical to implement Black Prince



And if Allies get prototype tanks because there are more german heavies per game than in a real battle then Germans surely get long range anti tank rockets that were in development too because if there would have been tanks live the Black Prince in 1944 already they surely would have seen widespread combat use ...

And again: The Black Prince did not not see combat because the allies did not need a counter to german heavies but because other tanks got the job done better
16 Jul 2021, 15:44 PM
#108
avatar of Grittle

Posts: 177

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jul 2021, 14:08 PMAvNY
Oh geez, just give it up already!

You want the fantasy of being able to call in one of the fanciful units? (and it is a fantasy). You will have to deal with the fact that Allied counters will have to also become commonplace.

What I am saying is if the Axis get the fancy kit the wehraboos want to fap over, and if that fancy kit actually works in the game as it did in the designers mind rather than on the battlefield, then the Allies will have to get a counter.

Your choice... do you want it to be an equally fanciful working allied heavy tank design or 4-5x the mediums. or do you want to have a 10% die roll at the start of an engagement to even see if you get to call in a heavy at all?



This has to be bait at this point, but I'll bite

Its a basic rule for COH at this point: If a few (20+) were made, and it saw atleast some major combat in WW2. It can be in COH.

This is why the Sturmtiger is in. Its why the Flame Hezter was in, its why the Pershing was in, its why the Comet was in, and its why the Black Prince should NOT be in

And as for the battlefield operational problems, literally every faction had horrendous tank problems. A good chunk of T34 and Shermans were lemons on the field. Tigers were stupidly over designed for no good reason (I.E adding 50+ moving parts to save 10 pounds on a 50 ton Tank). Churchills intentionally had limits put on their engines so it couldn't go faster than running infantry. WW2 was literally the first major conflict that used Tanks from start to finish. Ofcourse everyone would be experimenting and failing at tank design. it was a new concept.
16 Jul 2021, 18:58 PM
#109
avatar of Musti

Posts: 203


stuff

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jul 2021, 15:44 PMGrittle

more stuff


Late 1945 barely-more-than-prototype tech being used in 1943-44 isn't any more or less alt-hist fantasy than seeing a Black Prince on the frontlines. So is depicting depicting ultra-rare equipment as a regular frontline unit. And to me drawing the line at "if it was kinda sort of deployed somewhere at some point maybe then its fine" is artificial, to me using equipment that didn't exist (or practically didn't exist) is exactly that, and arguing whether on not it was "deployed" is splitting hairs.

And to answer why it was implemented? Well, they want to give UKF a KT-like heavy tank, and Black Prince loooks cool, mean and requires very little explenation, its a big tank with a big gun. And if it really bothers you that much, 17 pounders were used in Italy, Churchills were used in italy, just pretend its a field modification or something.

Look, I'd prefer the game to be historically accurate too, and I definitely agree that 1940-42 equipment would be way more interesting than repeating 43+ yet again. But COH was always full of bullshit, you may as well call it Company of Bullshit. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can move on.
16 Jul 2021, 19:09 PM
#110
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jul 2021, 18:58 PMMusti

Late 1945 barely-more-than-prototype tech being used in 1943-44 isn't any more or less alt-hist fantasy than seeing a Black Prince on the frontlines.


Late 45? The war in Europe ended in May. Also CoH2 Multiplayer is more set in late 1944 to early 1945. So Stuff like Ostwind and Tulip Rockets do still somewhat fit



jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jul 2021, 18:58 PMMusti

And to me drawing the line at "if it was kinda sort of deployed somewhere at some point maybe then its fine" is artificial, to me using equipment that didn't exist (or practically didn't exist) is exactly that, and arguing whether on not it was "deployed" is splitting hairs.


Ostwind was used. There are records of it.
Sturmtiger was used. There are records of it.
Black Prince was not used.

It is that simple. Don't see how this can be considered "splitting hairs"



jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jul 2021, 18:58 PMMusti

And to answer why it was implemented? Well, they want to give UKF a KT-like heavy tank, and Black Prince loooks cool, mean and requires very little explenation, its a big tank with a big gun.


But why does UKF need this? They have Archer and Churchill already and the Axis won't have Tiger II this time (at least I hope they won't) since there were none in Italy.

Why not give Brits the 75mm Churchill instead? As far as I know this unit is not yet present

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jul 2021, 18:58 PMMusti

And if it really bothers you that much, 17 pounders were used in Italy, Churchills were used in italy, just pretend its a field modification or something.


But there were no such fieldmodifications. But ok. When do we get Panther with Nebelwerfer on top of it then? Panther was used in Italy, Nebelwerfer was used in Italy and after all they need something like the Calliope too ...

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jul 2021, 18:58 PMMusti

But COH was always full of bullshit, you may as well call it Company of Bullshit. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can move on.


This is hitting new levels of Bullshit in Terms of Units. They should evolve but not backwards in terms of historical accuracy ... after all they now have more money on their hands that could be spent on research and stuff
16 Jul 2021, 19:11 PM
#111
avatar of Grittle

Posts: 177

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jul 2021, 18:58 PMMusti



bing bing haha


Yes, but atleast those "prototypes" had actual operational use. The Black Prince was made after WW2. Also only 6 were made. The only other vehicle that had less made than that and also appeared in COH was the Bergetiger.

And as for field modifications, why not use the Churchill 75NA? That was a field modified Churchill used in Italy that gave it a better gun that was also more durable in the turret region. And over hundred Churchills were modified this way.
16 Jul 2021, 19:11 PM
#112
18 Jul 2021, 06:38 AM
#113
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 369

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jul 2021, 18:09 PMKatitof
44 ostwinds were ever made, right at the end of the war, 6 were ready by May of 1945.
Relic made it look like it was main AA vehicle of axis since both armies have it, one stock.

Just leaving it out there.


Would you prefer the axis has the Wirbelwind? at least 87 were converted of those.
18 Jul 2021, 07:51 AM
#114
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 965

Since the regular Churchill in Coh3 is going to have the 2 pounder, the Black Prince should be replaced with a Churchill that has a 6 pounder or 75 mm. At least these two versions were used in the war.

Everything else is bullshit and seriously ruins the game for those with some historical knowledge.

Even more so since in their presentation they told us that they want to focus on history in this game and that they want to stay true to the special setting.

Or we go full retard: Then I would like to have the Königstiger, Jagdpanther, Jagdtiger etc. Those are Coh classics and don't make sense. However they still have more justification to be in this game than a post war prototype. If we get bullshit, then we should get bullshit for everyone.
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