Login

russian armor

Elite Mod COH - Download and Changelog

PAGES (29)down
3 Dec 2013, 16:10 PM
#341
avatar of 12ocky

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1

It's a bug that has been there for ages tbh. Just don't delete your rax xD

3 Dec 2013, 17:32 PM
#342
avatar of CombatMuffin

Posts: 642

Hey, I find it highly unlikely that anyone would delete their rax, even by accident, but a low level bug is a low level bug xD. That used to happen to me a lot with the howitzer. Then I learned...

3 Dec 2013, 17:42 PM
#343
avatar of 12ocky

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1

Hey, I find it highly unlikely that anyone would delete their rax, even by accident, but a low level bug is a low level bug xD. That used to happen to me a lot with the howitzer. Then I learned...


It has happened to everybody tbh, it seems to happen when you have almost finished it. not at the start of the build.
3 Dec 2013, 18:02 PM
#344
avatar of 12ocky

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Dec 2013, 20:11 PMKiraye

An easy fix: make a new Critical type based on infantry_critical type and only edit Sniper rifles with "Heroic critical" properties, which are basically non lethal critical triggers (unlike on infantry_type which kills them even if the Sniper rifle deals less damage than health the target has.) As a result, other weapons will have the same criticals chances as default.


Yes but that is exactly my issue, that when you drive a jeep/bike up to a position, he retreats and your countersnipe will always fail. You make the retreat button; oh if I retreat now I will NEVER LOSE MY SNIPER TO COUNTERSNIPE button.
3 Dec 2013, 18:19 PM
#345
avatar of Kolaris

Posts: 308 | Subs: 1

Uh what?

If the choice is between a 37.5% chance for a one-hit kill, or doing ~65-85% of the Sniper's HP and hoping the Jeep/Bike can finish the job, I'll take the latter.

Combined arms counter-snipe is much much stronger AND more reliable with this system.
3 Dec 2013, 18:49 PM
#346
avatar of Kiraye

Posts: 30

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2013, 18:02 PM12ocky


Yes but that is exactly my issue, that when you drive a jeep/bike up to a position, he retreats and your countersnipe will always fail. You make the retreat button; oh if I retreat now I will NEVER LOSE MY SNIPER TO COUNTERSNIPE button.


Following scenarios could happen:

-If he is coming at me with a jeep/bike, should I instantly retreat even the jeep/bike is far away, to use the "NEVER LOSE MY SNIPER TO COUNTERSNIPE feature"? (essentially forcing my 340 manpower investment to cover in fear every time I see a jeep/bike, making far less mp bleed than I expected, or none at all in fear of the above situation)

-I will try to take out the jeep/bike with Faust/Sticky/etc. while microing my sniper if he gets close. Here many variable factor in: positioning of my sniper, my Volks/Rifle/etc. the microing of the enemy jeep/bike. This will present a scenario will positioning, micro and awareness can produce multiple outcomes:

A, I may take out the jeep/bike if he screws up without he getting a chance to countersnipe because he cant get in 18m detection range.

B, I will use prematurely the "NEVER LOSE MY SNIPER TO COUNTERSNIPE button" and help my Sniper escape way sooner (more defensive approach) but with the jeep buff, US sniper chasing is as deadly as a WM motorcycle chase if the circumstances (no other support to helps the Sniper while he retreats etc.) or make the chase way shorter because I damaged the sniper with a countersnipe.

C, I fuck things up by reacting to late to the 18m detection range, and my sniper dies to the countersnipe.


So essentially you want to raise the accuracy to 100% with a sure chance to kill at every situation? Altough this option has its pros and cons, it will result in Snipers being pretty much tricky to use because even if you support them, usually the fast speed of the jeep/bike will reveal them, way before faust/sticky/other can take out them and guarantee the countersnipe with a little bit of awareness and micro. Would you build a Sniper in this situation?
After 1 shot you would need to flee or go way behind your lines not to get bum rushed by a jeep/bike // countersnipe (presuming both have snipers). 340 manpower worth that much risk?
3 Dec 2013, 19:58 PM
#347
avatar of CombatMuffin

Posts: 642

If a single jeep/bike will make solo snipers scared, then so be it. They should be. I am spending some very fragile 180/220mp JUST to keep a watch on that sniper. A well micro'd sniper can last you the entire game. A jeep/bike is unlikely to survive past early mid (how many times have you seen a vet 3 jeep running around?).

Snipers will need to be supported, or risk an isolated counter. They are inherently a sort of all or nothing unit: I hit you I kill you, you hit me, I'm most likely dead.
3 Dec 2013, 20:07 PM
#348
avatar of 12ocky

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2013, 18:49 PMKiraye


So essentially you want to raise the accuracy to 100% with a sure chance to kill at every situation?


No I want it to stay exactly the same way it is, because of any proposition or any idea regarding the cs (including my own ideas) I don't think it would create better gameplay. In the past there were tests with snipers not killing each other off completely or 100pct countersnipe, it just doesn't feel right.

RNG is the name of the game, you have it in almost every unit and ability. Howitzer can kill all or hit nothing, same with nebels and stuff. I'm not sure snipers deserve to be any different.
Why does a countersniper HAVE TO succeed? It's basically this: If you spend 340 manpower you are certain to take away his 340 manpower.
3 Dec 2013, 20:24 PM
#349
avatar of wehrman

Posts: 80

^^^ I agree, there has to be some randomness.

My problem is this, I can beat good players (like lev 16) when we both play with no snipers or 1 sniper each. But as soon as other player gets 2 snipers, my win rate is 0%.

Granted, I'm still working on my micro but categorically, if I play against double sniper I lose. Everything else I can handle. So that tells me there's a problem. I know I need to get better, but one strat shouldn't give me a 0% success rate, especially when I can beat same opponent who doesn't use multiple snipers.

I played very competitive game against 2 pros this weekend. Early game went my way, mid game was about even, but by late game they had 3 or 4 snipers, game over. Especially when you play as wehr with smaller unit size. It's instant unit loss or best case prop war.

There has to be a risk/reward going dbl or more snipers, just like there are with other strats. i.e. spam volks you are susceptible to bars/flamers. I think the solution is partial unit design, i.e. longer recloak or reload, negative zeal, movement/cloaking penalties, but also some sort of upkeep.
3 Dec 2013, 21:36 PM
#350
avatar of Kolaris

Posts: 308 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Dec 2013, 20:07 PM12ocky

No I want it to stay exactly the same way it is, because of any proposition or any idea (including my own ideas) I don't think it would create better gameplay. In the past their were tests with snipers not killing each other off completely or 100pct countersnipe, it just doesn't feel right.


2 hits to kill in all situations was rejected because it didn't reward countersniping enough, which is the opposite of what you're saying...

RNG is the name of the game, you have it in almost every unit and ability. Howitzer can kill all or hit nothing, same with nebels and stuff. I'm not sure snipers deserve to be any different.


Snipers already ARE different, because it's 1 diceroll and not influenced by player skill.

Everywhere else the dicerolls are at least in the dozens, and that gives you time to adjust if you see you're being screwed by the RNG. Snipers, not so.

The truth is more dicerolls equals less randomness. I don't look at this as removing dicerolls, I'm actually trying to add them. But the end result is less negative RNG.

Why does a countersniper HAVE TO succeed? It's basically this: If you spend 340 manpower you are certain to take away his 340 manpower.


It has to succeed because you outplayed your opponent and deserve to be rewarded.

You're thinking you'll be guaranteed to lose your Sniper because you use them very aggressively. You've said a couple times you don't move your Sniper after every shot, you've mentioned using attack move liberally, and from Tommy's streams that seems to be the case.

Well if you use them so freely, of course your opponent will get an opportunity to countersnipe. That's the risk you take when you're firing at every opportunity.

If someone uses them cautiously, using manual firing, gauging whether they're being baited into a countersnipe, even a 100% countersnipe chance doesn't mean it's a sure deal. Simply because you never let your opponent get an opportunity to take the shot.

That's the kind of skilled play we're trying to reward here in my opinion.
3 Dec 2013, 23:53 PM
#351
avatar of Kolaris

Posts: 308 | Subs: 1

A bit of background on the Sniper issue - Expert 2.602 Discussion on Sniper vs Sniper
EDIT: Alternate Link

I don't think anyone will mind this seeing as it's three and a half years later. No one looks bad and the discussion isn't heated.

Basically the timeline is:
- Most people want 100% CS, a few argue that luck is part of the game
- Consensus reached on removing the 50% moving modifier
- This unintentionally makes CS on Retreat 75%
- Recon Run decimates the metagame during the Beta
- A few other suggestions, including the Heroic Critical Type on Retreat are well received
- We run out of time and can't risk anything so we revert to vanilla Sniper vs Sniper

The issue was never that 100% CS was bad for gameplay, it was only that Recon Run screwed it up and we were out of time to explore more options.

Particularly these quotes by Seb sum up my view of the issue -

Well, I think it is a lot more interesting to reward knowing where and when to use the sniper carefuly, and being able to read the other player to know when he will try to counter snipe (lack of 400 manpower that early in the game for us is rather easy to spot as wm in your example).

I find that far better than the micro level of moving your sniper after a shot to hope for a 50% luck.


If you use well your sniper, you will not give him any chance to counter you anyway, and that's where the micro should be.


The winner of such battle will not be the luckiest one, but the one that manages to keep his sniper safe as much as possible, the one that really understands where and when to shot. Or the one that knows better how to setup a counter snipe properly.
4 Dec 2013, 01:02 AM
#352
avatar of CombatMuffin

Posts: 642

The link isn't working for me right now, but I see the point you are making, and the people involved are supposed to be experts on the matter.

If I understand the system correctly, snipers don't get an accuracy modifier. They either roll a critical hit or they miss it right? It's why you can't tamper with accuracy depending on distance or anything like that?
4 Dec 2013, 03:52 AM
#353
avatar of wehrman

Posts: 80

thanks for posting, Kolaris. After reading, I realize how far from pro I really am : ) A lot of the discussion is about making it harder to kill sniper. OMG, that's crazy to me.

I think Budwise suggested 50/75/100 on sniper vs sniper, that seems right to me. But I think the 1v1 sniper war isn't the problem. It's the spamming.

Wehr has a disadvantage in the sense that jeep > bike in a suicide rush. Recon. Smaller unit size.

True wehr can get sniper in t1, but fix to rifle reinforce starts to offset that.

I've seen many pro games via TFN and elsewhere, where US goes dbl sniper and all of sudden negates 20 minutes of dominate Wehr play.

How about decreasing movement speed uncloaked? This would penalize the tight group spam retreat anytime anything gets near you or just spamming retreat to avoid counter snipe. Takes longer to get back on the field so you really need to decide whether you want to stay on and cause damage or take the safe way out.

Also, the dancing sniper is really painful. And I think it should be auto kill with caliope, nebel, etc. I've had many games where a nebel hits a sniper right on the head and nothing.

I think if you increase the ways to kill a sniper, especially grouped together, it makes it prohibitive to spam them because you can lose 680+ mp in a quick second.

But I hate the idea of diminishing the 1 on 1 battle. Need to figure out how to preserve that best as possible, but introduce group penalties.
4 Dec 2013, 07:03 AM
#354
avatar of 12ocky

Posts: 508 | Subs: 1


Well if you use them so freely, of course your opponent will get an opportunity to countersnipe. That's the risk you take when you're firing at every opportunity.

Yup that was bad play on my part (I am still far off high level play atm), not using the 50 percent survival chance I would have still gotten. I should have microed it around better and estimated the danger more accurately.


if you use well your sniper, you will not give him any chance to counter you anyway, and that's where the micro should be.

Exactly, and that's the beauty of the 50%, you won't use your sniper as a countersniper, but you have the choice to still pick off men albeit less frequently. This chance is completely taken away if you got 100pct countersnipe. The opponents sniper never reveals itself, and just waits for one shot. It's that simple.

The way it now is: game sense is also hella important, you see it a lot on high level play,

Plz spare me that balance expert forum I saw it once via Contador's account. If people like Fatbomb and NTD were able to put their stamp on the beta you just know it was doomed to be a joke. Seb was sensible, Budwise too, even Darwin aswell.
But the funny thing is: The people who played the beta most were just 2: It's was Contador and me. And after every patch I was the one who was able to predict with + 98% what the balance effects were going to be. Hell I was even talking about lower rifle reinforce cost before the patch was released.

Hehe read some of the posts, even Seb says at one point to revert it.

Another thing that is pointed out; Sniper off cloak more vulnerable. (by Seb)
I wanted to post this later, but i'll just go ahead and do it now. When playing vs Tommy in several games, I retreated snipers a couple of times through men, past them and managed to survive. A health nerf could be in order and also like i mentioned before that 40 sight range brings needless utility to Wehr sniper.

So by the time i'm done writing this post I've also read the whole fucking experts log. And what strikes me, is the final idea. (combined with anti sniper zeal to prevent sniper A move blob.) I think it would be a great solution, sadly it was never tested?

And yes the Sniper follow feature is bullshit in the game. But removing it adds strenght to snipers. It's hard to choose which one is best.
4 Dec 2013, 08:51 AM
#355
avatar of Kolaris

Posts: 308 | Subs: 1

You missed his point, you can still take shots if you know:

1) Your opponent's Sniper doesn't have a shot on yours
2) Your opponent's attention is elsewhere
3) Your opponent won't be able to react fast enough to your first shot

Then rather than automatically losing your 340 MP to his 340 MP like you said, you're still draining his MP and his 340 MP is sitting there doing nothing.

Seb said he was unsure because as Aimstrong & Budwise pointed out US was/is heavily depended on Snipers to counter T2 Terror, and there wasn't time to provide alternative counters.

Everyone was in agreement 100% CS was better for gameplay, outside a couple people who were neutral on removing RNG anywhere.

I'm fine with a general health/retreat nerf, in fact that's part of the Heroic Critical on Retreat idea imo. But that's a separate issue and I still feel 100% CS is important regardless of any other change.
4 Dec 2013, 09:46 AM
#356
avatar of Tommy

Posts: 742 | Subs: 2

Maybe it'd be possible to add a modifier similar to the one that affects the cooldown on cloak, but with accuracy. So the first shot fired after a long break (or after the unit has just been built) would have a 2x accuracy bonus (for example), thereby guaranteeing hitting a moving sniper. Then for each consecutive shot, have accuracy decrease until it's back to 1.

Not sure if it's possible but it wouldn't drastically change the current micro needed to use snipers, it'd just mean less frustration in getting the CS.
4 Dec 2013, 11:16 AM
#357
avatar of Purlictor

Posts: 393

Some thoughts on Langres in relation to wehr snipers. For me this has always been one of the main reasons why Langres is just extremely hard to play as US (One of the others being the US base is just a leisurely stroll away from your cutoff).

You can flank, you can be succesful, but you can never turn it into any real gains because the sniper just soft retreats back to near his base, then starts picking away at all your low-man squads. You can't cap more than a few points, plant 1 or 2 mines and be forced away with 10+ casualties.

Example:

Your opponent is south Langres as wehr. He's going your basic vvmgs(mg) on the right hand side. You flank your opponent (not an easy feat in itself). He just instantly retreats if in a bad spot, takes at most a few volk casualties, and just has his sniper fall back to next to his base to start picking off riflemen trying to cap anything. It just makes any sort of aggressive flanking useless and promotes the extremely boring 'camp until I have an M8 and double sniper' play.

I guess this is just a pet peeve of mine. It's obviously a lot worse on Langres (already a wehr map) because the map is so small and there are no real LoS hindering obstacles.

Enough of the ranting about wehr on Langres :p An idea about snipers in general:

Instead of having increased accuracy for a countersnipe, what about a received accuracy increase, a bit like the cloak mechanics:
- When you shoot, your sniper receives increased accuracy for x amount of time.
- If shooting more frequently, this received accuracy stays for a longer period of time. The 'cooldown' would work a lot like the cloak cooldown would.

This would make snipers more vulnerable to other forms of damage, but I honestly wouldn't mind alternative anti-sniper methods to be more viable.
4 Dec 2013, 12:32 PM
#358
avatar of Oktarnash

Posts: 403

Why don't we simply add the earlier 100% CS and elite armour for one build, and test it, talking is easy, and the idea is good on paper, but we won't know until we trully test it.
4 Dec 2013, 13:40 PM
#359
avatar of Pepsi

Posts: 621 | Subs: 1

Didn't try the last update yet.

@Kolaris, do you plan to fix the inf pathing in some ways ? Fixing the jumps behind covers is already insane, but I always found that unit movement or repositioning is very hard... Most of the time 1 or 2 guys just don't follow the squad leader and just stay behind, just enough to get focus fired, killed or supressed.. It's annoying.

Another point I find boring and which slow the game is the butterfly effect of the mg suppression on vehicles, then reported on infantry. Having a rifles squad being suppressed 5 meters away from a mg targeted jeep is lame.

It feels like suppression effects are applied with different ways on a squad and on a vehicle.
When an mg fires at a squad and another squad is near around, suppression won't happen for the second squad. While when an mg fires at a vehicle, all the squads around the vehicle are suppressed almost instantly.
4 Dec 2013, 16:09 PM
#360
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

Making the timer to recloak after firing an AoE effect would solve the whack-a-mole sniper blobbing.

Every sniper shot affecting the other nearby sniper's timer to recloak would leave very vulnerable snipers for bikes and jeeps (or anything).
PAGES (29)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest
Diversity Cup
Event in Progress

Livestreams

Germany 37
South Africa 1
unknown 1
Germany 289

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag shadics ARG.
  • U.S. Forces flag TüMe
  • Ostheer flag The101stAirBorne
  • Ostheer flag Clororaa
uploaded by TüMe

Board Info

262 users are online: 1 member and 261 guests
Vipper
14 posts in the last 24h
124 posts in the last week
603 posts in the last month
Registered members: 36227
Welcome our newest member, kinleympbishop
Most online: 1221 users on 25 Feb 2020, 12:03 PM