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russian armor

is kubel free mpahack to good?

10 Jul 2021, 01:30 AM
#1
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 590

kubels tracking ability is free. only needs vet and shows units from a tremendous range in fog. u would think that this would make the kubel immobile or move very slowly but it doesnt. its actually really fast still while ability is active. on top of that u van toggle it on and off instantly on and off as much as u want. see every move the enemy makes without him knowing ur watching him. For free. no toggle cooldowns no cost. i feel this ability is very very very ultimate for its cost. passive non stop vision u tell me what u think
10 Jul 2021, 01:35 AM
#2
avatar of Grittle

Posts: 177

I have never seen a kubel last more than 15 minutes in a match.
10 Jul 2021, 01:38 AM
#3
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 590

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jul 2021, 01:35 AMGrittle
I have never seen a kubel last more than 15 minutes in a match.
all u need is vet 1 and hide for rest of game. i see it alot on replays i watch almost all my replays
10 Jul 2021, 02:15 AM
#4
avatar of Antemurale
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 940

all u need is vet 1 and hide for rest of game. i see it alot on replays i watch almost all my replays


I did exactly that on a recent game on Nexus. From right spawn I hid it behind the building on the bottom half, gave me consistent maphacks for nearly the entire game.

I think it would be better if they turned it into a T-70-esque Recon Mode. At least it forces you to micro it more and not just park it behind shotblockers.
10 Jul 2021, 04:54 AM
#5
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4024 | Subs: 3

I think all light vehicles have been given excessive abilities to compensate for them falling off lategame. Things like the WC51 and scout cars. The kubel is no exception. It would be "more balanced" with increase LoS instead of the ability.
10 Jul 2021, 14:34 PM
#6
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 743

It dies in one shot and an inf unit sneezing at it. Becomes a liability extremely quickly and exchanges one squad for its presence. If it gets into trouble, with its reduced speed with the mode active it's extremely unlikely to be seen again. Eg: A snare off or tank/LV. Sure the ability is a toggle but that's crucial time you don't really have. And you will not get another vet 1 kubel unless your opponent is hopeless.

10 Jul 2021, 16:11 PM
#7
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12176 | Subs: 1

Generally imo speaking all reckon abilities should timed instead of always on
10 Jul 2021, 19:23 PM
#8
avatar of Grittle

Posts: 177

I think all light vehicles have been given excessive abilities to compensate for them falling off lategame. Things like the WC51 and scout cars. The kubel is no exception. It would be "more balanced" with increase LoS instead of the ability.


That, I agree with. Especially with the WC51

The little car has like 3+ commander abilities tacked on to it. In matter of fact. Mechanized Company as a whole is a mess, full of abilities that are "secretly" 3+ commander abilities in one. Like reserve armor providing the Halftrack, WC51, Marked Vehicle target, and an Arty Barrage. Really messy overall.

Sadly, USF itself is a big mess already, and I feel that trying to clean it up without careful tweaking and observation will either make it very broken or very bad.
11 Jul 2021, 01:35 AM
#9
avatar of didimegadudu

Posts: 35

i think it needs to be stealthed when in recon mode, like Luchs. it is already so weak in terms of health, so why not make it more survivable with stealth? so rare to have it survive past 10 minutes
11 Jul 2021, 05:13 AM
#10
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 590

It dies in one shot and an inf unit sneezing at it. Becomes a liability extremely quickly and exchanges one squad for its presence. If it gets into trouble, with its reduced speed with the mode active it's extremely unlikely to be seen again. Eg: A snare off or tank/LV. Sure the ability is a toggle but that's crucial time you don't really have. And you will not get another vet 1 kubel unless your opponent is hopeless.

it takes 2 shots from su85 for your info... and are u saying that this unit is ok the way it is? toggle is crucial time? like its to much micro? just press hot key 1 time really fast. almost like no time at all. if he wants free passive long range vision he will buy again and vet it up carefully..
11 Jul 2021, 11:17 AM
#11
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 743

it takes 2 shots from su85 for your info... and are u saying that this unit is ok the way it is? toggle is crucial time? like its to much micro? just press hot key 1 time really fast. almost like no time at all. if he wants free passive long range vision he will buy again and vet it up carefully..

Kubel effective hp =240hp
Effective hp left after SU-85= 80 hp. Armor 3/1.9. Inf unit sneezing at it? Death.

I don't think you read what I actually typed.

Inf unit looking at it = Death. Snared = Death. Constant micro tax looking after it = High chance of lost unit elsewhere. Outnumbered by allied inf = Very bad time for OKW.

And how will this player vet it again in the midgame onwards? LMG inf will melt it. PTRS penals eye it and a magic trick makes it disappear. Cons shoot from behind sandbags. AT guns exist in x2 extremely often. It doesn't happen as I already explained. Late game in arty heavy environments? Less than a snowball's chance in hell.

11 Jul 2021, 17:06 PM
#12
avatar of TanithScout

Posts: 47


Kubel effective hp =240hp
Effective hp left after SU-85= 80 hp. Armor 3/1.9. Inf unit sneezing at it? Death.

I don't think you read what I actually typed.

Inf unit looking at it = Death. Snared = Death. Constant micro tax looking after it = High chance of lost unit elsewhere. Outnumbered by allied inf = Very bad time for OKW.

And how will this player vet it again in the midgame onwards? LMG inf will melt it. PTRS penals eye it and a magic trick makes it disappear. Cons shoot from behind sandbags. AT guns exist in x2 extremely often. It doesn't happen as I already explained. Late game in arty heavy environments? Less than a snowball's chance in hell.



Can Allies get an equivalent then? Or is that Major recon?
11 Jul 2021, 19:35 PM
#13
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 743



Can Allies get an equivalent then? Or is that Major recon?

Sure I can see it happening if you tag it to an ultra light vehicle that has to exist in an environment where faust is everywhere :lolol:

But more seriously Allies have nondoc equivalents with mortar flares, improved infantry sight (pyrotechnics) and USF get out of jail free card with more smokes than anyone else and yes Major recon.
11 Jul 2021, 22:14 PM
#14
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


Sure I can see it happening if you tag it to an ultra light vehicle that has to exist in an environment where faust is everywhere :lolol:

But more seriously Allies have nondoc equivalents with mortar flares, improved infantry sight (pyrotechnics) and USF get out of jail free card with more smokes than anyone else and yes Major recon.


The sole reason the Kubel kept it's cheesy maphack when it still received passive vet, it's because the unit never got meta status and it's there to give some sort of diversity to OKW early on. Although it's generally hard to justify the attention investment the unit requires compared to simple use another Volk.

It would had been the first thing to be changed/removed or put in line with other similar abilities, both on Allies and Axis side (tracking, vehicle detection, infantry awareness). Basically limited duration and munition cost.


In regards to changes to Kubel, what if:

-Vet 0 Stealth detection mode: -25% speed +20 camouflaged detection +10 sight (current is -50% speed, +20 camo and minimap up to 70 range)
-Vet 1 20s 15 muni for 70 range minimap info
-After a truck is deployed, the unit self repairs when in allied territory, not having received nor moved after X amount of time. Doesn't remove snares criticals on it's own.
-Remove self repair at vet 3 and passive suppression/RA at vet 5.
-Move vet4 offensive bonuses to vet 3
-Vet 4 give it some small armor like +1
-Vet 5 give it a similar ability to suppress like the 250 HT. Reduces speed by 95% (so it can rotate but not cheese move around) and size by X and gives a small amount of suppression. Give it a munition cost if necessary.
11 Jul 2021, 23:18 PM
#15
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 743



In regards to changes to Kubel, what if:

-Vet 0 Stealth detection mode: -25% speed +20 camouflaged detection +10 sight (current is -50% speed, +20 camo and minimap up to 70 range)
-Vet 1 20s 15 muni for 70 range minimap info
-After a truck is deployed, the unit self repairs when in allied territory, not having received nor moved after X amount of time. Doesn't remove snares criticals on it's own.
-Remove self repair at vet 3 and passive suppression/RA at vet 5.
-Move vet4 offensive bonuses to vet 3
-Vet 4 give it some small armor like +1
-Vet 5 give it a similar ability to suppress like the 250 HT. Reduces speed by 95% (so it can rotate but not cheese move around) and size by X and gives a small amount of suppression. Give it a munition cost if necessary.


Addressing this hypothetically, as I'm not sure that the balance team have the time for such an overhaul of an off-meta unit:

Is the repair, after truck deployment, locked behind vet 1, 2 or baseline? Wasn't sure from the way it was structured into your list. It is an innovative approach and might encourage more dangerous capping to get that repair.

Certainly the vet 0 appears to be a very interesting replacement. There is an issue though that it now self-spots for AT (60 range) and acts as a very cheap spotter for JT. IR HT sees out to 85 but it must redeploy each movement at the first sign of trouble. I think ppl would also complain that they're being bombed to pieces and spotted by a unit that can just reverse a little and is just out of range of AT guns. Not sure how to balance it.

How much do people use the timed minimap scanner abilities anyway? The cost is cheap which makes it more palatable, though I do wonder what people feel towards such abilities overall.

I have no idea why the current offensive bonuses are in such a steep level, the unit hardly ever reaches vet III, much less mowing down ppl even at vet IV. Sounds good.

Armour seems fine.

Vet V's current suppression is rather low. I cannot extract the data values as we lost COH2db but I recall it being much lower than an MG. Field testing had two+ full bursts required to suppress a squad and often ignored in light cover. It will suppress but slowly. A more effective suppression could work and the current vet V 10 model size might make it viable. Buuuut vet V is an incredible achievement in itself for this unit. Not sure how to go about balancing that personally.
12 Jul 2021, 00:47 AM
#16
avatar of Mittens
Donator 11

Posts: 1274

It dies in one shot and an inf unit sneezing at it. Becomes a liability extremely quickly and exchanges one squad for its presence. If it gets into trouble, with its reduced speed with the mode active it's extremely unlikely to be seen again. Eg: A snare off or tank/LV. Sure the ability is a toggle but that's crucial time you don't really have. And you will not get another vet 1 kubel unless your opponent is hopeless.




damn thing takes two shots to kill no matter if its an e8 or AT gun, dont kid yourself....


Either way, I think the Kubal is good, its frontal armor is enough to reduce enough damage and the DPS is good enough to stop allies from building cover. I think the tracking should be a time'ed and muni based ability.
12 Jul 2021, 02:21 AM
#17
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 590

this unit is so non meta u see it almost every game and used all the time. and some saying its a liabilty... how can it be? if u see the enemys advance.. for free, passivley, mobile and probably hiding. all game till it dies...and its on sale early game. how can it be a liabilty if u see the enemy and fall back early. him not knowing u see him coming. and not be in much combat only when u see fit

also there is no allies equivalent cant mention flares/tracking/major ect if its not free and passive and mobile
12 Jul 2021, 09:02 AM
#18
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1677

Sure, give back MG-Kubel and we fine!
12 Jul 2021, 09:22 AM
#19
avatar of Sumi

Posts: 120

Yeah it is way too op in the hands of pros in team games. Also it renders the commandos pretty much useless along with any stealth unit I guess. If its 240 HP and low armor makes you think that it is fragile and will die quickly, I would like to understand why the WC51 was nerfed so hard that it suddenly became the least favorite unit.
12 Jul 2021, 16:46 PM
#20
avatar of TanithScout

Posts: 47


Sure I can see it happening if you tag it to an ultra light vehicle that has to exist in an environment where faust is everywhere :lolol:

But more seriously Allies have nondoc equivalents with mortar flares, improved infantry sight (pyrotechnics) and USF get out of jail free card with more smokes than anyone else and yes Major recon.


Interesting.
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