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russian armor

Sturmtiger feels very underwhelming compared to the B4

9 Jul 2021, 07:38 AM
#61
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3090 | Subs: 2

It could have had like a long range shot at vet 5 or something for an ammo cost, similar to the Sturmtiger HE barrage.
MMX
9 Jul 2021, 08:29 AM
#62
avatar of MMX

Posts: 877 | Subs: 1


Aweeeeeee......... Jee........ I never thought of doing that. Stupid me thank you oh smart big brain mister for such an Insightful advice my single digit IQ brain could have never come up with something like this. This must be the intelligence of a quadruple digit brain. My mind has been blown.


mind blown or not, he's right tho. if you actually test this a direct hit will always deal the full 580 damage, no matter what target. there's just no way for it to 'barely do any damage' outside of ff modifiers being active or not scoring a direct hit in the first place. so i'm quite curious what and how you've actually tested to come to this conclusion?
MMX
9 Jul 2021, 09:23 AM
#63
avatar of MMX

Posts: 877 | Subs: 1



AFAIK it can't but the more you go outside of the center of the circle the less damage you get (at least this is how I think it works)

Center = full damage
Border = very little damage (even less than the alleged deflection damage (Gonna be honest, no clue how deflection damage works ... maybe the 290 DD is the "highest" DD one can get and it again gets lower the further away you go?)

Ah ... nvmd. There are other damage stat too (maye deflection damage is entirely meaningless as ST can't bounce) :

DMG near 580
DMG mid 145
DMG far 45



the ST shell will always pen and, thus, can't deflect as long as the projectile collides with the hitbox of the target. outside of that, the damage dealt will depend on the distance as you've already listed, as well as on the aoe penetration at that distance. this is afaik always rolled against the frontal armor value and deflected hits will deal 50% less damage. i'm not sure about the exact values for aoe pen, but i'd guess those are significantly lower than 1000, so deflection should still be possible.
9 Jul 2021, 10:47 AM
#64
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 626


Aweeeeeee......... Jee........ I never thought of doing that. Stupid me thank you oh smart big brain mister for such an Insightful advice my single digit IQ brain could have never come up with something like this. This must be the intelligence of a quadruple digit brain. My mind has been blown.

you do what you do and how you want to do it, my man. Just don't get carried away, ok?
10 Jul 2021, 20:54 PM
#65
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 485

I think the Sturmtiger commander actual.... needs a nerf. Either removing its ability to roll 2 heavy tanks, or just increasing ST aim time further. The ST is in every 4v4 game.

The projectile is now consistent, so it gets consistent results. This has massively improved its usability and as such... it gets used a LOT. Its like a AVRE, but with bigger boom more range and less deadly return fire. Previously, that was countered by its insanely inconsistent projectile. Less armor yes, but JESUS. I'm seeing consistent rage quits from the lower skill side of the community. its no fun losing games when your ally eats a ST round and loses his Vet 3 infantry AND the tank they were next to.
10 Jul 2021, 21:22 PM
#66
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518

I think the Sturmtiger commander actual.... needs a nerf. Either removing its ability to roll 2 heavy tanks, or just increasing ST aim time further. The ST is in every 4v4 game.

The projectile is now consistent, so it gets consistent results. This has massively improved its usability and as such... it gets used a LOT. Its like a AVRE, but with bigger boom more range and less deadly return fire. Previously, that was countered by its insanely inconsistent projectile. Less armor yes, but JESUS. I'm seeing consistent rage quits from the lower skill side of the community. its no fun losing games when your ally eats a ST round and loses his Vet 3 infantry AND the tank they were next to.


Can't talk about the USF / UKF or 4v4 experience (don't play 4v4 and only encountered it once as UKF and never as USF in 3v3 after patch) but in 3v3 as Sov. I don't really have a problem with ST or ST + Tiger II. Yes ST is hard to kill and often reaches Vet 5 but for me (I usually go T1 with Penals) it isn't really that big of a problem. It happens very seldom that I can't doge it in time and lose a quad or most of the squad. Ok .. given this is Rank 14 to 15 so maybe my opponents simply don't know how to exploit it properly but still ... And regarding Tiger II + ST: If your opponent has both then that means that you could have 3 TDs on the field ... or about 3 to 4 B4s ; )
10 Jul 2021, 21:41 PM
#67
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3090 | Subs: 2

I think the Sturmtiger commander actual.... needs a nerf. Either removing its ability to roll 2 heavy tanks, or just increasing ST aim time further. The ST is in every 4v4 game.

The projectile is now consistent, so it gets consistent results. This has massively improved its usability and as such... it gets used a LOT. Its like a AVRE, but with bigger boom more range and less deadly return fire. Previously, that was countered by its insanely inconsistent projectile. Less armor yes, but JESUS. I'm seeing consistent rage quits from the lower skill side of the community. its no fun losing games when your ally eats a ST round and loses his Vet 3 infantry AND the tank they were next to.


No offense but maybe clumping up units right next to each other, especially in the late game in team matches where it's basically an arty fest, is not the best of ideas?

Just saying.

I mean I also see it in other games as well like Foxhole, not just here.
10 Jul 2021, 21:46 PM
#68
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 485



Snip


I play consistently with Rank 7-11 friends, so those ST shots connect a LOT. Both heavies make life really hard for any inf spotting for the TDs.
10 Jul 2021, 21:53 PM
#69
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 485


Snip


Absolutely. Normally, most anti-blob tools give some time+warning before they hit, and are reasonably counterbatteryed while the ST does not. It just forces a consistent micro tax. And a lot of people I play with can't handle it and lose their stuff, especially in hour long slug fests. You can see the play rates in 4v4 for the ST. It climbed aggressively with the consistency fix. I believe that was the only change to that commander.

its REALLY unpleasant to lose your stuff to a singular lapse of attention, see the B-4 complaints.

And well, all big AoE complaints. P-4s, KV-1s, etc.
10 Jul 2021, 22:48 PM
#70
avatar of mr.matrix300

Posts: 518



I play consistently with Rank 7-11 friends, so those ST shots connect a LOT. Both heavies make life really hard for any inf spotting for the TDs.


Hm. I can imagine that rank 7 does suffer more from it but still: 435 fuel + 1290 MP that is a lot of resources ... and don't forget that KT needs all Trucks too. Also Sov. Su 85 is self spotting
11 Jul 2021, 00:07 AM
#71
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1865

Sturmtiger needs larger AOE

Is it hard-capped at 32?
11 Jul 2021, 19:09 PM
#72
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 626



No offense but maybe clumping up units right next to each other, especially in the late game in team matches where it's basically an arty fest, is not the best of ideas?

Just saying.

I mean I also see it in other games as well like Foxhole, not just here.

this actually shows its effectiveness, since you don't need to be very good to inflict serious damage. There are units like ostruppen that shine through cost effectiveness, but you need to apply pressure with them and trade with the opponent, which is a skill that lack mid-low rank players. With ST you just need to it set up and click 2 buttons.

Pretty similar situation was with ISU, when you could camp 1 VP from 70 range and wreck everything. No skill was needed, just a suitable doctrine with this unit.
12 Jul 2021, 02:27 AM
#73
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 592

this shoulda been titled feels overwhelming lol
12 Jul 2021, 06:16 AM
#74
avatar of 45thPOTUS

Posts: 33

I think the Sturmtiger commander actual.... needs a nerf. Either removing its ability to roll 2 heavy tanks, or just increasing ST aim time further. The ST is in every 4v4 game.

The projectile is now consistent, so it gets consistent results. This has massively improved its usability and as such... it gets used a LOT. Its like a AVRE, but with bigger boom more range and less deadly return fire. Previously, that was countered by its insanely inconsistent projectile. Less armor yes, but JESUS. I'm seeing consistent rage quits from the lower skill side of the community. its no fun losing games when your ally eats a ST round and loses his Vet 3 infantry AND the tank they were next to.


doesnt this sound familiar with the B4 spam in 4v4?? i dont see u complain about b4 which fires 3 shells compared to the 1 of st. maybe see the game from axis perspective aye. pure l2p issue
12 Jul 2021, 06:19 AM
#75
avatar of 45thPOTUS

Posts: 33


this actually shows its effectiveness, since you don't need to be very good to inflict serious damage. There are units like ostruppen that shine through cost effectiveness, but you need to apply pressure with them and trade with the opponent, which is a skill that lack mid-low rank players. With ST you just need to it set up and click 2 buttons.

Pretty similar situation was with ISU, when you could camp 1 VP from 70 range and wreck everything. No skill was needed, just a suitable doctrine with this unit.


yea with the b4 i dont even need to set up and press 1 button which fires 3 shells, sounds fair right??
12 Jul 2021, 07:21 AM
#76
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3276 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jul 2021, 00:07 AMGrumpy
Sturmtiger needs larger AOE

Is it hard-capped at 32?


I wonder what require more skills, blobbing or pushing a button to delete everything it targets on a unit that can roam around easily due to its high armor and high HP.

This unit is like a blob on itself. But a good old fashioned blob that delete everything on its path.

I think part of the problem is that the amount of effort you need to put just to counter that unit is definitively too high vs the amount of effort to get benefit from it. Even if you manage to catch it off-guard with appropriate counters you need like 30 seconds to destroy it. And this not counting on the potential support the player can bring during this time.

It is not that I'm against a nuke unit, but it must be a unit with various flaws exploitable by the opponent. Not what it is actually.
For instance the decrew if damaged while reloading was an interesting mechanism even if flawed. So instead of simply removed it, why not having change the decrew by something else like a damage modifier giving +100% received damage while reloading. So the opponent has a windows of opportunity to deal with it quickly and force the owner of the unit to be much more careful after a shot.
Oh and put back the manual reload, so the owner has a bit more to do than just going forth and back and until pushing the hit button.
12 Jul 2021, 08:11 AM
#77
avatar of 45thPOTUS

Posts: 33

Oh and put back the manual reload, so the owner has a bit more to do than just going forth and back and until pushing the hit button.

do u even play the game?? have u even tried the unit?? it still requires manual reload.

maybe try not to grp all ur units into a single blob?

if u compare the current b4 or even the avre the the sturmtiger straight up feels lackluster. this does not even take into account of the crap commander abilities in the doctrine.

losing units to a sturmtiger is a pure l2p issue
12 Jul 2021, 21:57 PM
#78
avatar of Garrett

Posts: 236 | Subs: 1

Sturmtiger is just too much, why did they unnerf EVERY aspect of that thing?
13 Jul 2021, 03:24 AM
#79
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1865

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jul 2021, 07:21 AMEsxile


I wonder what require more skills, blobbing or pushing a button to delete everything it targets on a unit that can roam around easily due to its high armor and high HP.

This unit is like a blob on itself. But a good old fashioned blob that delete everything on its path.

I think part of the problem is that the amount of effort you need to put just to counter that unit is definitively too high vs the amount of effort to get benefit from it. Even if you manage to catch it off-guard with appropriate counters you need like 30 seconds to destroy it. And this not counting on the potential support the player can bring during this time.

It is not that I'm against a nuke unit, but it must be a unit with various flaws exploitable by the opponent. Not what it is actually.
For instance the decrew if damaged while reloading was an interesting mechanism even if flawed. So instead of simply removed it, why not having change the decrew by something else like a damage modifier giving +100% received damage while reloading. So the opponent has a windows of opportunity to deal with it quickly and force the owner of the unit to be much more careful after a shot.
Oh and put back the manual reload, so the owner has a bit more to do than just going forth and back and until pushing the hit button.


The video I posted was probably a little misleading. The wind-up takes awhile so you have to guess where they're going to be. I disabled the FOW in the replay. The player probably would've been able to save some of his Penals if he full retreated instead of soft retreated. Still the result was as hilarious as the blob of five Penals was annoying. If there was a Sturmtiger hall of fame, this shot would have to be in it as I got 32 models in one shot.

The Sturmtiger still has manual reload, but that isn't the problem with it. If you time it perfectly, the shot can come out of the FOW and wipe a squad before you can react. I haven't got that good with it yet, but promise to keep trying until they nerf the range. The other problem is the guided-missile grenades that it shoots. When playing against a Sturmtiger, I've closed in on it but was unable to finish it on several occasions because the guided-missile grenades are ridiculously good. They'll usually kill at least 3 models for 20 munitions. Soviet mines were never that good and they got nerfed.

As for the B4 being OP, I've tried it a few times and never had much luck with it. It's better than the ML20 but roughly on par with the LEFH. I don't even keep it in my loadout now. Interestingly enough, the current B4 is almost the same as the old ML20. The ML20 used to shoot 4x 300 damage shells instead of 3x 400 damage shells. I wish the ML20 was the current B4 and that the B4 was restored to it's former high damage, with either an AOE buff or a reload buff.

13 Jul 2021, 06:10 AM
#80
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3276 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jul 2021, 03:24 AMGrumpy


The video I posted was probably a little misleading. The wind-up takes awhile so you have to guess where they're going to be. I disabled the FOW in the replay. The player probably would've been able to save some of his Penals if he full retreated instead of soft retreated. Still the result was as hilarious as the blob of five Penals was annoying. If there was a Sturmtiger hall of fame, this shot would have to be in it as I got 32 models in one shot.

The Sturmtiger still has manual reload, but that isn't the problem with it. If you time it perfectly, the shot can come out of the FOW and wipe a squad before you can react. I haven't got that good with it yet, but promise to keep trying until they nerf the range. The other problem is the guided-missile grenades that it shoots. When playing against a Sturmtiger, I've closed in on it but was unable to finish it on several occasions because the guided-missile grenades are ridiculously good. They'll usually kill at least 3 models for 20 munitions. Soviet mines were never that good and they got nerfed.

As for the B4 being OP, I've tried it a few times and never had much luck with it. It's better than the ML20 but roughly on par with the LEFH. I don't even keep it in my loadout now. Interestingly enough, the current B4 is almost the same as the old ML20. The ML20 used to shoot 4x 300 damage shells instead of 3x 400 damage shells. I wish the ML20 was the current B4 and that the B4 was restored to it's former high damage, with either an AOE buff or a reload buff.



Its not only about your video but personal experience ingame. Even when retreating before the wind-up will end with a full wipe and trying to move without retreating doesn't work either because the aoe is too large.
If it wasn't the case we wouldn't see Sturmtiger almost every game.

I think that the only squad that have a slightly chance to survive it is the 7 men cons squad. or at least that's the only type of squad I've see survive it more than once in a match.
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