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A question about Mainline Infantry Vet

25 Jun 2021, 21:41 PM
#1
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 195

Wasn't sure if I should put this question in Balance or Gameplay. After playing both USF and Soviets and asking a few questions here I noticed that both Conscripts and PanzerFusilier have much bigger gains thru vet than other mainlines. For the more experienced/better players why were they given such large Vet bonuses?

To get it out the way I suck at using Conscripts as mainline units, so I usually go T1 Penal build since they push and play like stronger Rifleman. I have incorporated Conscripts as support squads for merge/capture which allows them to Vet up as back up units to the Penal squads while covering for my horrible micro. However, once late game Vet3 hits they are pretty much indestructible even without 7th man. So my question is why were they given such a large Rec Acc bonus at Vet 3 while also getting cheaper reinforcement? Isn't that double dipping?

For Fusi, I obviously noticed they would scale past my Penal squad even though my units are "semi" elite units. To deal with them I put my Penal/Conscripts in front and force retreats using MG however if a blob comes I better hope I get some suppression quickly. My question here is why does PF get 40% accuracy buff when most other mainlines get 30%? G43 is a no brainer upgrade which pretty much makes the unit better at what it already is built to be good at. In general looking at the Veterancy list for PF it get massive bonus for abilities and combat ability more like an elite unit then a mainline replacement that it is.

25 Jun 2021, 21:44 PM
#2
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17536 | Subs: 8

1) Should be in gameplay
2) Cons-because they need it to compete against other mainlines as they had no upgrade for years and the one they finally got arrives at the latest.
PFs have no larger values, just more offensive allocation of them.
25 Jun 2021, 22:04 PM
#3
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 195

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jun 2021, 21:44 PMKatitof
1) Should be in gameplay
2) Cons-because they need it to compete against other mainlines as they had no upgrade for years and the one they finally got arrives at the latest.
PFs have no larger values, just more offensive allocation of them.


1) Do I change it or does can the MODS change it?

For Cons, they get a PPSH upgrade and SVT upgrade in different doctrines, PPSH for years if I remember correctly. However I understand that 7th man upgrade comes the latest but that upgrade plus the Rec Acc bonus plus the ability to build green cover/Utility upgrades all seems to be OP especially in a skilled players hands. Pretty much the way things are balanced makes T1 useless past midgame.

PF get the same REC ACC bonus as VG along with weapon cooldown, however they get a larger accuracy bonus while also getting increased Flare range and decrease in grenade timer. The flare/g43 upgrade make VG Vet4 useless while Vet5 healing is nice there are plenty of healing options. Pretty much what I am saying is it is not just the weapon profile that make PF so strong late game.
25 Jun 2021, 23:22 PM
#4
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12173 | Subs: 1

One has to look at hole picture, base stats offensive, base stat defensive, vet bonuses offensive vet bonuses defensive.
26 Jun 2021, 00:18 AM
#5
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 461

Wasn't sure if I should put this question in Balance or Gameplay. After playing both USF and Soviets and asking a few questions here I noticed that both Conscripts and PanzerFusilier have much bigger gains thru vet than other mainlines. For the more experienced/better players why were they given such large Vet bonuses?

To get it out the way I suck at using Conscripts as mainline units, so I usually go T1 Penal build since they push and play like stronger Rifleman. I have incorporated Conscripts as support squads for merge/capture which allows them to Vet up as back up units to the Penal squads while covering for my horrible micro. However, once late game Vet3 hits they are pretty much indestructible even without 7th man. So my question is why were they given such a large Rec Acc bonus at Vet 3 while also getting cheaper reinforcement? Isn't that double dipping?

For Fusi, I obviously noticed they would scale past my Penal squad even though my units are "semi" elite units. To deal with them I put my Penal/Conscripts in front and force retreats using MG however if a blob comes I better hope I get some suppression quickly. My question here is why does PF get 40% accuracy buff when most other mainlines get 30%? G43 is a no brainer upgrade which pretty much makes the unit better at what it already is built to be good at. In general looking at the Veterancy list for PF it get massive bonus for abilities and combat ability more like an elite unit then a mainline replacement that it is.




The thing that you are missing here is Target Size which is basically your base chance to dodge. The higher the targer size the easier it is for something to be hit.

Every Infantry Model in the game has 80 HP, what differentiates these units is target size. So Conscripts/Ostruppen for example tend to have a larger target size.

Team Weapons (MGs Mortars and such) have a target size of 1.25. This means that Infantry attacking them have a 25% increased chance of landing shots on them which is why a Mortar Squad or MG Squad getting flanked will die very fast vs a normal mainline infantry.

The game doesn't do a good job of relaying such information to the player.
26 Jun 2021, 00:39 AM
#6
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 743





Disclaimer: Typing at the end of 9.5 hour shift.

To answer your questions clearly the issues are this:

Cons have an ABSOLUTELY abysmal base (1.09 model is just awful when the main base is 1) and only beat grens/volks by simple virtue of outnumbering them and getting up close. For years they were a meme unit because their late game was just so weak despite successive buffs. 7 man went a very long way and they're fine now. Their base damage is pretty low, esp at far and the vet buffs go a long way towards making them a reasonable unit. This graph is of the base damage values and it's clear that in a distance cover shootout they'll get crushed hard. Volks have 31-70% more damage if 1:1 squad comparison. Obviously 6 men but you'll lose a guy fast with base model size. Vet II+ obers and pzgrens will still walk over even vet III 7 men cons.



Penals start off extremely well but they scale not as well. (Used to be even worse, imagine running around with 1 model size inf vs pzgrens and obers!!!) That price for their fantastic base has to come somewhere and scaling is one of them, as is the cost of the unit. Considering they start as 6 men and have this firepower below? Strong scaling would make them ridiculously OP.



Of key importance is the fact that volks and fusilier do not have the same Kar 98. That's up to 25.7% more damage at close range. Yes the upgrade is more powerful for fusiliers than volks but it also costs more and the 6th man is not free. It is true that fusiliers scale very hard but that says more about how weak volks are late game than anything else.



It's also not true that 40% accuracy is unusual for mainlines
Grenadier: +40%
Osttruppen: +40%
Conscript: Already stated as 40%
Riflemen: 30%
Fusilier: 40%
Panzergrenadier: +16.7% then +20%, making +40% overall
Volksgrenadier: +30%
Infantry Sections have weaker scaling (25% accuracy etc.) in great part imho because of how powerful their base is.
Penal: Last man stat bundle, +30% and then +20%
26 Jun 2021, 00:49 AM
#7
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 195




The thing that you are missing here is Target Size which is basically your base chance to dodge. The higher the targer size the easier it is for something to be hit.

Every Infantry Model in the game has 80 HP, what differentiates these units is target size. So Conscripts/Ostruppen for example tend to have a larger target size.

Team Weapons (MGs Mortars and such) have a target size of 1.25. This means that Infantry attacking them have a 25% increased chance of landing shots on them which is why a Mortar Squad or MG Squad getting flanked will die very fast vs a normal mainline infantry.

The game doesn't do a good job of relaying such information to the player.


I didn't miss that, that is the entire point of my conscript post. Conscript start off at a target size of 1.09, at Vet 3 after all the Rec Acc bonus the Target size drops to .71. That is amazing, my issue is along with Target size reduction, conscripts squads get a 7th man, decrease in reinforce to 18mp per model and increase in Vet gain. On top of that replacing, a Conscript squad late game is only 240mp which means losing one is not costly aside from having to vet again. Compared to Penal Squad, which starts with a Target size of 1 and ends up with a Target size of .85 at Vet3. The role of the Penal squad is to attack, by design it will lose models so why is the reinforce so high? The conscript is not supposed to force the other unit off but outlast. In the end, what I am saying/asking is why does the conscripts get so many bonus late game compared to the other mainline infantry?

Vipper for VG vs PF, VG kar does more damage 12vs10 and has better close delays as in cool down, ready aim time and fire aim. It has worse accuracey across the board and get a smaller bonus with Vet. So with vet the Kar shots will almost always hit against anything with a Target size of 1. That seems extremely strong when mixed in with the G43 upgrade
26 Jun 2021, 01:01 AM
#8
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 195



Disclaimer: Typing at the end of 9.5 hour shift.

To answer your questions clearly the issues are this:

Cons have an ABSOLUTELY abysmal base (1.09 model is just awful when the main base is 1) and only beat grens/volks by simple virtue of outnumbering them and getting up close. For years they were a meme unit because their late game was just so weak despite successive buffs. 7 man went a very long way and they're fine now. Their base damage is pretty low, esp at far and the vet buffs go a long way towards making them a reasonable unit. This graph is of the base damage values and it's clear that in a distance cover shootout they'll get crushed hard. Volks have 31-70% more damage if 1:1 squad comparison. Obviously 6 men but you'll lose a guy fast with base model size. Vet II+ obers and pzgrens will still walk over even vet III 7 men cons.



Penals start off extremely well but they scale not as well. (Used to be even worse, imagine running around with 1 model size inf vs pzgrens and obers!!!) That price for their fantastic base has to come somewhere and scaling is one of them, as is the cost of the unit. Considering they start as 6 men and have this firepower below? Strong scaling would make them ridiculously OP.



Of key importance is the fact that volks and fusilier do not have the same Kar 98. That's up to 25.7% more damage at close range. Yes the upgrade is more powerful for fusiliers than volks but it also costs more and the 6th man is not free. It is true that fusiliers scale very hard but that says more about how weak volks are late game than anything else.



It's also not true that 40% accuracy is unusual for mainlines
Grenadier: +40%
Osttruppen: +40%
Conscript: Already stated as 40%
Riflemen: 30%
Fusilier: 40%
Panzergrenadier: +16.7% then +20%, making +40% overall
Volksgrenadier: +30%
Infantry Sections have weaker scaling (25% accuracy etc.) in great part imho because of how powerful their base is.
Penal: Last man stat bundle, +30% and then +20%


I get what your saying and thanks for posting the graphs. To counter, PG are considered Elite right not mainline and Grenadier have a Vet3 target size of .91 and a squad size of 4 so they can't trade as long as the others so it would make sense. Also why do PF get an extra man with the upgrade wouldn't that contribute to their great scaling vs VG.

For the Cons, I would expect them to get walked over due to cost of Obers and PG and the fact that they aren't supposed to be used as damage dealers. I feel like Penal scaling would easily be addressed with a buff to Rec Acc like 5% or a reduction in reinforce.
Edit: Part of my issue or confusion is using the Penal as intended can cause massive late game bleed. The Vet1 ability encourages you to stay fighting as long as possible. The other thing, do you know what the bonuses are and how much they increase per model drop?
26 Jun 2021, 01:10 AM
#9
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 743



I get what your saying and thanks for posting the graphs. To counter, PG are considered Elite right not mainline and Grenadier have a Vet3 target size of .91 and a squad size of 4 so they can't trade as long as the others so it would make sense. Also why do PF get an extra man with the upgrade wouldn't that contribute to their great scaling vs VG.

For the Cons, I would expect them to get walked over due to cost of Obers and PG and the fact that they aren't supposed to be used as damage dealers. I feel like Penal scaling would easily be addressed with a buff to Rec Acc like 5% or a reduction in reinforce.

You're welcome.

PG's timing leaves them in a sort of halfway zone between T0s like cons and T4s like Obers, but the distribution doesn't change much even removing them from the list. Cons do damage fine, especially from behind cover and that -30% weapon cooldown in cover from Mobilize Reserve.

You mean like this?


6 man fusilier does contribute to their great scaling. Their start is utterly rubbish however, these things balance out. As I've said earlier, volks late game is non-existentawful and fusiliers look even better thanks to this.
26 Jun 2021, 01:19 AM
#10
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 195


PG's timing leaves them in a sort of halfway zone between T0s like cons and T4s like Obers, but the distribution doesn't change much even removing them from the list. Cons do damage fine, especially from behind cover and that -30% weapon cooldown in cover from Mobile Reserves.

You mean like this?


6 man fusilier does contribute to their great scaling. Their start is utterly rubbish however, these things balance out. As I've said earlier, volks late game is non-existentawful and fusiliers look even better thanks to this.

Thank you, that is exactly what I was looking for.

I was thinking more along the lines of the start of the fight and just remove it from the ability. Even with the ability and maximum lost squad which is 3 I believe the Target size would be .77/.775 depending on how it is calculated. Starting off with a Target size of .8 would allow maximum damage for a bit longer to help against stronger units. Once down to the 3rd man it would be worse but you would most likely be retreating at that point anyways. Any thought on that?
26 Jun 2021, 01:42 AM
#11
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 743


Thank you, that is exactly what I was looking for.

I was thinking more along the lines of the start of the fight and just remove it from the ability. Even with the ability and maximum lost squad which is 3 I believe the Target size would be .77/.775 depending on how it is calculated. Starting off with a Target size of .8 would allow maximum damage for a bit longer to help against stronger units. Once down to the 3rd man it would be worse but you would most likely be retreating at that point anyways. Any thought on that?

I was not aware there was a stated cap on the amount of models lost other than *Squad death*. So up to +5 multiplier.

Your suggestion would make them too powerful and frankly would roll Axis players regardless of skill. That or the price would have to be increased to compensate, which is almost as bad. 0.8 is elite infantry model size, even infantry sections need to be in cover to get that or 0.85 outside of that iirc. You counted Panzergrenadiers as elite inf and they get 0.8 model size for a 4 man squad. Vet 1 is easy to get on a T0/T1 as well. Penal accuracy and other values would have to rebalanced as they would then be doing far too much damage compared with their current survivability scaling. 3 man squad can still be very dangerous, esp against another squad fairly worn down.

Overall I think the unit is fine. More changes to survivability would homogenise the unit to some generic allied mainline and overshadow conscripts as much as they used to.
26 Jun 2021, 12:54 PM
#12
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 195


I was not aware there was a stated cap on the amount of models lost other than *Squad death*. So up to +5 multiplier.

Your suggestion would make them too powerful and frankly would roll Axis players regardless of skill. That or the price would have to be increased to compensate, which is almost as bad. 0.8 is elite infantry model size, even infantry sections need to be in cover to get that or 0.85 outside of that iirc. You counted Panzergrenadiers as elite inf and they get 0.8 model size for a 4 man squad. Vet 1 is easy to get on a T0/T1 as well. Penal accuracy and other values would have to rebalanced as they would then be doing far too much damage compared with their current survivability scaling. 3 man squad can still be very dangerous, esp against another squad fairly worn down.

Overall I think the unit is fine. More changes to survivability would homogenise the unit to some generic allied mainline and overshadow conscripts as much as they used to.


I was think of making the target size .8 at Vet3 when they would be going up against tanks/elite AI troops. I believe the different Guards have better than .8 target size but at work so not much time to check. I agree with you on your last point, having a lot of units to similar is boring.

What do you think about at Vet3 having a small decrease in reinforce cost to say 23mp?
26 Jun 2021, 16:55 PM
#13
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 743



I was think of making the target size .8 at Vet3 when they would be going up against tanks/elite AI troops. I believe the different Guards have better than .8 target size but at work so not much time to check. I agree with you on your last point, having a lot of units to similar is boring.

What do you think about at Vet3 having a small decrease in reinforce cost to say 23mp?

I honestly think penals are fine and don't need any further changes, let alone reinforce costs. 23 mp is cheaper than even volksgrenadier reinforce costs and makes no sense. Perhaps others feel differently about penal changes.
16 Jul 2021, 10:30 AM
#14
avatar of y3ivan

Posts: 119

a bit off topic

Is the conscript upgrade to a 7 man squad better than a conscript 6 man squad with stolen lmg42? I m curious on the actual performance of the 7 man upgrade and if its worth it to upgrade.

i m split on the the conscript upgrade. it cost 50 mun + 18MP reinforce and cant pick up weapons.

and unlike the Osther and OKW upgrade which is a nobrainer upgrade, does it apply to conscript upgrade
16 Jul 2021, 10:37 AM
#15
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17536 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jul 2021, 10:30 AMy3ivan
a bit off topic

Is the conscript upgrade to a 7 man squad better than a conscript 6 man squad with stolen lmg42? I m curious on the actual performance of the 7 man upgrade and if its worth it to upgrade.

i m split on the the conscript upgrade. it cost 50 mun + 18MP reinforce and cant pick up weapons.

and unlike the Osther and OKW upgrade which is a nobrainer upgrade, does it apply to conscript upgrade

If you can pick LMG42 with cons, you should, they will perform great with it.
Just avoid picking up PTRS or DP with them, it'll nerf them hard on the long run.
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