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USF Pathfinders need to be balanced

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7 Nov 2021, 14:02 PM
#101
avatar of Solved

Posts: 35

My suggestions to balance Pathfinders and prevent people from abusing them:

- Pathfinders 1 CP; increase call-in cooldown to 100 sec.
- Beacon does only provide reinforcements for Airborne Rangers; no sight in FOW anymore (Pathfinders' sightrange is largely enough)
- Sniper rifles take both weapon slots (the possibility of easily upgrading them with double BARs or Zooks is insane)

Quick comparison:
OKW Jäger:

- 1 CP, 300MP, 8 popcap, reinforcement 35MP
- 100 sec. call-in cooldown
- G43 Sniper needs to be upgraded for 60 ammo
- Upgrade needs a set up truck

USF Pathfinders:

- 0 CP, 290MP, 6 popcap, reinforcement 30MP
- 24 sec. call-in cooldown
- 2 Sniper rifles for free
- 2 free weapon slots (BAR and Bazooka)


I DO NOT want to make them the same. Their weapon profiles differ and their sniper rifles work a bit different, thats absolutely okay. Thats not the matter!

The issue is simple: You can spam Pathfinders early on and upgrade them easily with powerful weapons while still beeing cheaper than Jäger.

To understand my consideraions, watch the replay. It's just a bad joke...


I can't but laugh at this post , literally every single Axis unit does the same thing with cost/overperformance and spam and when you bring it up you get the "Assymetrical balance" argument in your damn face.

So you want to bring them down to reflect the cost/performance off a different unit in the axis roster , well can we start ..

Rolls out entire document with Axis units overperforming for the same cost

that a'side let me laugh a bit more

AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAA

7 Nov 2021, 15:18 PM
#102
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 753

Lmao, JLIs are much better then Paths. Paths are pure utility because of the bad scaling and mediocre base received accuracy, while JLI is a pretty good combat unit. Imo Jager Lights are amongst the best infantry units in the game.
7 Nov 2021, 15:34 PM
#103
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13189 | Subs: 1

Lmao, JLIs are much better then Paths. Paths are pure utility because of the bad scaling and mediocre base received accuracy, while JLI is a pretty good combat unit. Imo Jager Lights are amongst the best infantry units in the game.

JLI are irrelevant to Pathfinder balance.
7 Nov 2021, 16:14 PM
#104
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1263



But we talk about players with very much skill and even they struggle hard and have almost no chance. So don't argue with skill and l2p issues. Thats none of the reason.

At this point I should clarify the core of the issue. It's not solely about Pathfinders themselves. It's about the very abusive combo with M8 Scotts, Packhowitzers, MGs and AT guns. As Axis you MUST play with weapon teams. But this combo is a hardcounter to weapon teams. So in order to not nerfing all USF weapon teams (which is nonsense) the only chance to fix this, is nerfing Pathfinders.


That you "MUST" play with team weapons only as axis is false. Ost is more depended on them but it isent a crutch. All factions reley on team weapons esp at guns. Okw can do fine without them this has been since launch.
Usf is forced to go without
A mg or at gun because how their tech is done or go doctrines. They have zooks at all times though.
All other factions have easy access to all their team weapons.

Nerfing paths put usf into riflemen only openings. Making them easy to read and shut down with mg play. The only solution is not play a static game when the enemy has a strong strat vs static play. Afiak okw doesnt struggle as much because they are more mobile/agressive.
7 Nov 2021, 16:38 PM
#105
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 753

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Nov 2021, 15:34 PMVipper

JLI are irrelevant to Pathfinder balance.

say that to the guy complaining how cheap paths are comparing to JLIs
7 Nov 2021, 16:44 PM
#106
avatar of Kyle

Posts: 322



i am a low level 2v2 wehrboo
and i faced the exact same issue you stated. crazy accurate how you typed it out matches 100%.

pathfinders on arranged team are cancer. even rando Usf experienced with this build order are as deadly
impossible to play against even if you are similar ranked wehr and randoms.


I find it the best way to deal with this is to let my OKW mate with his JLI to deal with it. Myself as Ostheer I will deal with the Soviet / UKF.

Let 50 sight fight against 50 sight, not to mention JLI can detect camo unit too. At early game the Pathfinder is weak so Sturmpio + volks + kubel can deal with this pathfinders spam until 1CP and JLI come out.

As Ostheer I cannot do anything against them because I don't have 50 sight and camo detection unless I upgrade my 222 with spotting scope OR turn on the infantry awareness. It's a shame but I prefer to play with 251 halftrack.



Same for me an my mate yesterday. We played pretty well in the beginning. We took out Clown Car from Sov player and got good map control. USF started with 3 Pathfinders. My Jägers could hardly fight them but with Luchs support, I had a small chance. But as soon as the AT gun was on the field, Luchs was useless. You cannot flank or attack anymore, just a waste of fuel. And then, few mins later, 3 Scotts were on the field. 2 of my Jägers got wiped out with single shots. GG, game over. This game pretty sucks right now and it has absolutely nothing to do with skill. Its just abusing a pretty bad balanced combo: Pathfinders + M8 Scott.

Making Pathfinders 1CP like Jägers would help by a lot. So USF players would need to build some core ifnantry units like all the others....


Yes when M8 spam hit the field then you chance of wining is very low because those thing wipe like crazy.

I also agree if we can make Pathfinders start at 1CP BUT THEN we need to buff their damage or something in order to balance it out, also please do something about M8, it's not funny with it wiping atm.

Also some people forgot that Pathfinders can be upgrade with BAR for better AI, pick up drop .50cal which enable them with a .50cal team with 50 sight and so on for AT gun. Panthfinders alone are nothing but right now they are the meta thanks to M8 buff.

Remember OKW Tiger before patch which was a wiping pos machine? Is it fun to play against that every game? No right? Same for us in 2vs2 at the moment.
7 Nov 2021, 18:32 PM
#107
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

You call 30MP reinforcement cost for a 4 men squad expensive? Cool! Then OKW Jägers are SUPER-expensive with 35MP cost...


30MP is expensive indeed for a squishy 4-man unit which neither starts with something like 0,8 to 0,7 received accuracy, some sort of body armor or a super high dps (glasscanon style). Jagers start with 0,8 and go up to 0,46 in stages until they are fully vetted. They are better in real dps too. You just can't compare.




And your whole argumentation targets at a skillful playstyle. Sorry, but we talk about players with very much skill and even they struggle hard and have almost no chance. So don't argue with skill and l2p issues. Thats none of the reason.

At this point I should clarify the core of the issue. It's not solely about Pathfinders themselves. It's about the very abusive combo with M8 Scotts, Packhowitzers, MGs and AT guns. As Axis you MUST play with weapon teams. But this combo is a hardcounter to weapon teams. So in order to not nerfing all USF weapon teams (which is nonsense) the only chance to fix this, is nerfing Pathfinders.


Airborne is a very frequently played commander, maybe the commander which gets played the most off all USF Commanders across all game modes. You can use Pathfinder spam right from the start, the combination with M8 isn't very expensive either. If it would be op in the way some guys want to make us believe the overall winrate across all game modes should reflect this. But it doesn't. It is pretty close to 50% overall and that is great. So either the combo isn't op in that way or it is op indeed but other USF units make up for that by beeing up. I don't know whats the case but it seems to be just okay in outcome overall.
7 Nov 2021, 23:32 PM
#108
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

only bs abuser defend this pathfinder spam.

Only exceptional scrub thinks its OP.
8 Nov 2021, 00:37 AM
#109
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 712 | Subs: 1

remember to reduce pioneer vision range to 35 while you're nerfing paths*
9 Nov 2021, 12:28 PM
#110
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13189 | Subs: 1

Imo issues with both version of Pathfinder are:

XP value
minute 0 elite carbines/scoped carbines
Free beacons

Changes could include:
Power level decreased to 240 so that the unit is support unit instead of mainline replacement

Elite carbines replaced by long range weapon that make units better long range but worse at mid to close range

XP value adjustments

Beacon now have a cost and/or have mini map info as a timed ability

Moving camo removed

Critical kill move to timed ability (same applies to JLI)
9 Nov 2021, 13:23 PM
#111
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 712 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2021, 12:28 PMVipper
Imo issues with both version of Pathfinder are:

XP value
minute 0 elite carbines/scoped carbines
Free beacons

Changes could include:
Power level decreased to 240 so that the unit is support unit instead of mainline replacement

Elite carbines replaced by long range weapon that make units better long range but worse at mid to close range

XP value adjustments

Beacon now have a cost and/or have mini map info as a timed ability

Moving camo removed

Critical kill move to timed ability (same applies to JLI)

literally nothing changes (you still have the insane view range to defeat people who crutch with support weapons)
9 Nov 2021, 13:57 PM
#112
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13189 | Subs: 1


literally nothing changes (you still have the insane view range to defeat people who crutch with support weapons)


The view range will be less of an issue if the number of units used is reduced to 1-2.
9 Nov 2021, 14:11 PM
#113
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 530


literally nothing changes (you still have the insane view range to defeat people who crutch with support weapons)


At that point, its that players problem. The game is dynamic, if someone found a counter you got to counter that counter with a counter. Jokes aside, reducing their base performance means they can't be spammed to open a game. Even if their vision isn't reduced there is less vision overall due to the USF player having to make more Rifles. On top of that if all those changes were implemented aside from synergy with crewing weapons or spotting they would be irrelevant.

EDIT: What about making them similar to Jaeger command squad, only one can be called in, increase in price, CP1 or 2 so that they still provide beacon for Paras.
9 Nov 2021, 15:28 PM
#114
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3467 | Subs: 1

Pathfinder are pretty much balanced atm, they're good early game but start losing engagement once squads get vetted and elite infantry hit the field.
There isn't a strategy that evolve around Pathfinder dominating the battelfield from start to end.

The most common strat today is about turning them into zook blob with Scott behind to do the infantry killing. And if you don't put zook on them then they just become expensive spotters for your scott and Jacksons on the late game.

9 Nov 2021, 15:59 PM
#115
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 530

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2021, 15:28 PMEsxile
Pathfinder are pretty much balanced atm, they're good early game but start losing engagement once squads get vetted and elite infantry hit the field.
There isn't a strategy that evolve around Pathfinder dominating the battelfield from start to end.

The most common strat today is about turning them into zook blob with Scott behind to do the infantry killing. And if you don't put zook on them then they just become expensive spotters for your scott and Jacksons on the late game.



Kind of, those Elite units need to vet up first to beat down Pathfinder with bars. Since Pathfinders vet pretty quickly compared to other squads fighting a Vet3 double Bar with say a PG ain't the best idea unless you catch them out of position. The increased damage along with the native crit chance can cause a otherwise decent engagement to go sideways.
9 Nov 2021, 19:04 PM
#116
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3467 | Subs: 1



Kind of, those Elite units need to vet up first to beat down Pathfinder with bars. Since Pathfinders vet pretty quickly compared to other squads fighting a Vet3 double Bar with say a PG ain't the best idea unless you catch them out of position. The increased damage along with the native crit chance can cause a otherwise decent engagement to go sideways.


It will be dependent on many parameters but nothing that says Path will win no matter what.
9 Nov 2021, 20:06 PM
#117
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 530

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Nov 2021, 19:04 PMEsxile


It will be dependent on many parameters but nothing that says Path will win no matter what.


I agree, a lot of it RNG dependent but since they vet quicker they can stay ahead of mainlines in combat performance and compete with elites until they get their vet up. All assuming bars of course.

Another possible solution to view range is making it like spotting scopes, they only have extended vision when they stay still maybe even out of combat if it isn't enough

9 Nov 2021, 21:45 PM
#118
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3467 | Subs: 1



I agree, a lot of it RNG dependent but since they vet quicker they can stay ahead of mainlines in combat performance and compete with elites until they get their vet up. All assuming bars of course.

Like any infantry that is not elite, I don't see the problem here. Their cost and stats are made accordingly to their capacity to pick up BARs or Zooks. If you want to make them come later around Elite timing, make them elite like JLI: CP1 with sprint, grenade, super high critic score, super r/acc etc...
Not sure if that would be balanced if we were giving JLI like units to USF in a doctrine with Paratroopers.


Another possible solution to view range is making it like spotting scopes, they only have extended vision when they stay still maybe even out of combat if it isn't enough



If you want to change how work extra vision range in game that's another topic, But you'll have to modify it for any unit with extra vision range, infantry and vehicle, native and upgrades. Because I don't see why we should batnerf Pathfinder vision while many other units work the same way.

---

Imo the only way to re-balance pathfinder would be to remove their weapon slot. So no more BARs or Zooks to support the Scott cuator.
But again that would require a redesign of the unit, improving their native stats which would be again problematic or reducing their price tag which also would be problematic. Maybe a bit of each.
That would make them strong early game but unable to be a kind of mainline infantry on the late game.
10 Nov 2021, 12:34 PM
#119
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1

Actually Pathfinders aren't super OP stat-wise.

But it's too easy to completely replace Riflemen with them, compared to JLI for Volks or PF for Volks. Increasing the time between call-ins would pretty much fix this issue.
10 Nov 2021, 13:31 PM
#120
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 712 | Subs: 1


But it's too easy to completely replace Riflemen with them, compared to JLI for Volks or PF for Volks. Increasing the time between call-ins would pretty much fix this issue.


the one and only reason why JLI cant replace volks completely is because JLI are cp1, okw players can and will cease making volks and spam JLI as soon as cp1 is reached
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