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E8 is still trash

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19 Jun 2021, 16:06 PM
#21
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1111


That's not how the game works. The E8 can and will reliably beat p4s where the m4 is disadvantaged. The E8 is even more valuable against okw where the medium tank match up leaves usf on the back foot.
USF doesn't want for AI anywhere so it's lower AI isnt the end of the world if it denies your enemy tank supremacy.
The issues lie in it being doctrinal, and it competing with the Jackson for an AT role. Those and the fact the tank isn't really that FUN (this I suppose is in part because of its lower AI)

Like I said, make it a limited to 1 command unit and it gives it much more room to be unique and not overlap so much. As I think, it might be required to be HARD capped at 1per game due to the crew, or at the very least with an extreme cooldown to prevent stacking up.

But back to your point there is no denying that the E8 has good stats. It can bounce all standard AT and requires a Panther as a means to guarantee penatrations. This is undeniable. There is no spin. Stats are stats. E8 CAN bounce even pak shots at range (the chance is slim but it CAN) it is one of the only allied mediums in the game that has that chance. It's not debatable. It's one of the only allied mediums that can bounce shreks. Again, this is beyond contestation.

The tank is underwhelming. I agree with that, but imo it's a fun factor not a Stat issue. This is not fact but opinion.


Only in 1v1. If anything, the E8 can be useful in 1v1s. I'd still take OKW P4 with better armour and non doctrinal than E8 any time of day. Getting E8 to fight P4s is one of the worst investments one can make in anything above 1v1. Reliably beating P4s means nothing. There will never be a scenario where your E8 and P4 will go mano-a-mano on some wide open space without any supporting stuff. So yeah, in a vacuum, E8 beats both P4s.. but only in a vacuum. In my opinion, E8 should have been a doctrinal premium brawler, not a retarded Jackson that it is currently or just a retarded M4 that it used to be before the patch. And don't give me all that "faction flavour" BS you constantly spill about USF being mobile and whatnot. Those things went away ages ago, in favour of 1v1 symmetrical balance
19 Jun 2021, 16:10 PM
#22
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 224


That's not how the game works. The E8 can and will reliably beat p4s where the m4 is disadvantaged. The E8 is even more valuable against okw where the medium tank match up leaves usf on the back foot.
USF doesn't want for AI anywhere so it's lower AI isnt the end of the world if it denies your enemy tank supremacy.
The issues lie in it being doctrinal, and it competing with the Jackson for an AT role. Those and the fact the tank isn't really that FUN (this I suppose is in part because of its lower AI)

Like I said, make it a limited to 1 command unit and it gives it much more room to be unique and not overlap so much. As I think, it might be required to be HARD capped at 1per game due to the crew, or at the very least with an extreme cooldown to prevent stacking up.

But back to your point there is no denying that the E8 has good stats. It can bounce all standard AT and requires a Panther as a means to guarantee penatrations. This is undeniable. There is no spin. Stats are stats. E8 CAN bounce even pak shots at range (the chance is slim but it CAN) it is one of the only allied mediums in the game that has that chance. It's not debatable. It's one of the only allied mediums that can bounce shreks. Again, this is beyond contestation.

The tank is underwhelming. I agree with that, but imo it's a fun factor not a Stat issue. This is not fact but opinion.


My issue with what your saying is only the Ost P4 gets reliably beat, the OKW does not. E8 has the advantage but it is not as large as the Panther vs E8. In other words, the P4J beats the Sherman, Panther beats E8 unless rng goes catastrophically wrong. Where does the E8 fit in, it is supposed to be AT focused but does not excel which is why I ask for more armor or health.

I was thinking maybe change the Tank commander benefits from increased sight and accuracy to a damage reduction similar to what the Pershing got. With this the E8 becomes a true brawler which wont dominate the Panther/JP4 head to head but will allow for longer fights or to simply overwhelm thru attrition. Maybe charge 70-100 muni.
Pip
19 Jun 2021, 16:13 PM
#23
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1545



Only in 1v1. If anything, the E8 can be useful in 1v1s. I'd still take OKW P4 with better armour and non doctrinal than E8 any time of day. Getting E8 to fight P4s is one of the worst investments one can make in anything above 1v1. Reliably beating P4s means nothing. There will never be a scenario where your E8 and P4 will go mano-a-mano on some wide open space without any supporting stuff. So yeah, in a vacuum, E8 beats both P4s.. but only in a vacuum. In my opinion, E8 should have been a doctrinal premium brawler, not a retarded Jackson that it is currently or just a retarded M4 that it used to be before the patch. And don't give me all that "faction flavour" BS you constantly spill about USF being mobile and whatnot. Those things went away ages ago, in favour of 1v1 symmetrical balance


Disregarding everything else: USF still have the advantage in armoured mobility. The improved on-the-move performance still exists (though in my opinion it isnt really the biggest deal), but the main part of this is the fact that US vehicles almost universally self-repair, which makes them much more mobile than axis counterparts.

Being able to patch oneself up without having to meet up with an engineer unit means that US vehicles can be pretty much wherever they like, without having to waste time finding an engineer to fix them. It also means they can recover from snares on their own (though this is often of niche use, you often won't have the time to repair before your opponent attempts to capitalise on the snare)
19 Jun 2021, 16:25 PM
#24
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1865

Easy 8 is still trash and finds no play in 2on2s. It gets countered by anything axis without problem, and it cannot counter anything. It found no play in the mod, the feedback was ignored, and the commander is still trash. I would have loved playing against more e8 commanders and more ukf but all I get now is soviet spam. Soviets everywhere. Incredibly useless balance decisions by the balance team, the changes to the e8 commander did nothing. Even worse that people still argue that e8 its good when it's just trash. I love my Ost buffs and changes but the state of the game me as axis versus Soviets now doing the same stuff every game but now against b4. That's all the patch did. Added b4 to Soviets. That's what we get as an axis driven community.


I don't think the balance team is very biased in terms of axis/allies. They do however, seem to make a lot of balance decisions based on how something does in 1v1's (maybe 2v2's also?). If you doubt this, look at the win rates for 1v1's. They're really close to 50% for everything except UKF. IMO, the problem is that they don't play random in larger game modes and often don't listen to the feedback that their changes are going to screw up balance in the larger modes.

In this case, the E8 is maybe a little better than it was, but still won't replace a Jackson. Even worse, when you compare this commander and the E8 to your choices as Soviet, it is trash. The E8 costs about the same as a KV1 or T34/85, but the AI is much worse. If you had access to either of those in this doctrine, you'd never buy an E8.

It gets worse when you compare the commander. Rifle company has no rocket arty, no long range arty, and nothing to destroy on-map howitzers. This makes it inferior to any Soviet commander with a KV1 or T34/85, and vastly inferior to something like Shock Army or Counter Attack.

If they buffed the AI of the main gun to match the T34/85, the E8 would be okay. This would be an ok-ish 1v1 commander. They would need to replace the half track with time-on-target to make it viable in larger games. Advanced Infantry equipment is underwhelming also. It'd be a lot better if it made either RE's or rifle squads into bazooka experts.

It would be nice to have an option to playing infantry company every time in 4v4's when you see LEFH's in the other team's loadout. That monotony is a large part of why I stopped playing USF.
19 Jun 2021, 18:24 PM
#27
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 479

The E8 needs more AoE damage, thats about it. Even without increasing OHK. The cannon has to directly snipe a target, pretty much exactly like the Panther.

The problem with the E8 in team games is it requires giving up USFs other sources of elite blob control while not having enough AI to compensate.

The answer is what it commonly is. Make Calliopes Non-doc so the E8s dont have to do the work. Otherwise they need more AoE to do the heavy lifting.
19 Jun 2021, 18:28 PM
#28
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1865

The E8 needs more AoE damage, thats about it. Even without increasing OHK. The cannon has to directly snipe a target, pretty much exactly like the Panther.

The problem with the E8 in team games is it requires giving up USFs other sources of elite blob control while not having enough AI to compensate.

The answer is what it commonly is. Make Calliopes Non-doc so the E8s dont have to do the work.


Making Calliope's non-doc would instantly make most USF commanders viable.
19 Jun 2021, 18:35 PM
#29
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 590

usa does need some kind of arty. calliops no doctrinal would be great. same for brits give them a non doc arty to balance the game so everyone has arty with out doc.
19 Jun 2021, 19:10 PM
#30
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3254 | Subs: 1

Relic will never allow the Calliope to be stock, but the balance team is responsible for the Scott and Pakh nerf to the ground making the Calliope becoming even more mandatory.

Anyway we all had the same conclusion, making the EZ8 a panther/comet alike (stat wise and price wise), even as limited to 1 but they never wanted to even give a try to the idea which says a lot about how they care about feedback and USF in general.
19 Jun 2021, 20:29 PM
#31
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 773

much of the problem stems from limitations relic put on the balance team so you guys shouldn't blame sander or the balance team for them. Im sure if they where able to they would consider making the calliope non doc which would solve so much problems (UKF too with land mattress).

Ez8 really does have decent stats, but its just not desirable, if you need AT or AI, they have much better options. For the tank to be desirable it needs to be buffed to OP levels.
19 Jun 2021, 20:56 PM
#33
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3254 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jun 2021, 20:29 PMAlphrum
much of the problem stems from limitations relic put on the balance team so you guys shouldn't blame sander or the balance team for them. Im sure if they where able to they would consider making the calliope non doc which would solve so much problems (UKF too with land mattress).

Ez8 really does have decent stats, but its just not desirable, if you need AT or AI, they have much better options. For the tank to be desirable it needs to be buffed to OP levels.


Calliope doesn't need to be stock if you give correct alternatives
19 Jun 2021, 21:38 PM
#34
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 479

What punishes large blobs of elite infantry without overly punishing individual squads? That's what you need, and that's well tuned rocket artillery. Only the Calliope can do that effectively and garuntee some bleed for USF.

The Pack Howi and the Scott were nerfed specifically because they punished individual squads too much.

My recent problems in big team is 3 players worth of axis elite troops blobbing 1 lane and no tools to really punish it. That makes rocket arty manditory.
19 Jun 2021, 23:57 PM
#35
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 470

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Jun 2021, 18:28 PMGrumpy


Making Calliope's non-doc would instantly make most USF commanders viable.



I wouldn't oppose this however I would rather they took the M8 "Scott" Howitzer Motor Carriage and converted into something more useful than it is currently.

It would be nice if the auto fire was removed (especially after being nerfed into the ground) and instead it was converted into a mini Priest that was on par with other non doctrinal artillery (Like Panzerwerfer/katyusha) in terms of lethality.
20 Jun 2021, 02:16 AM
#36
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1865




I wouldn't oppose this however I would rather they took the M8 "Scott" Howitzer Motor Carriage and converted into something more useful than it is currently.

It would be nice if the auto fire was removed (especially after being nerfed into the ground) and instead it was converted into a mini Priest that was on par with other non doctrinal artillery (Like Panzerwerfer/katyusha) in terms of lethality.


It would be interesting if they took away direct fire, greatly lowered the cooldown, gave it a 120-140 range barrage, and made the far AOE a little bigger.
20 Jun 2021, 03:58 AM
#37
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1790 | Subs: 1



Dont use penetration values for comparing different factions tanks. And E8 is trash. Not good vs armor not good vs infantry so what is the damn purpose of using this shitty unit ? E8 is not a good generalist too. It will be funny to watch how you guys defends this shitty situation.


Um, penetration values for other tanks is pretty useful to give you a sense of just how good the Easy-8 is at countering armor compared to other tanks. I'd love to hear why you think it's bad versus armor given it's extra health, better armor, .75 moving accuracy, and good penetration (especially compared to other mediums). Oh, and now you can get a tank commander to be self spotting with extra accuracy and at Vet 1 you can get extra range and even more penetration. And no "I can't get good results with it so it must be trash" isn't an acceptable answer.
20 Jun 2021, 12:31 PM
#38
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 224



Um, penetration values for other tanks is pretty useful to give you a sense of just how good the Easy-8 is at countering armor compared to other tanks. I'd love to hear why you think it's bad versus armor given it's extra health, better armor, .75 moving accuracy, and good penetration (especially compared to other mediums). Oh, and now you can get a tank commander to be self spotting with extra accuracy and at Vet 1 you can get extra range and even more penetration. And no "I can't get good results with it so it must be trash" isn't an acceptable answer.


I get what your saying but like people have said already that argument only works in a 1v1 tank fight. It does not take into consideration the rest of the army composition. Comparing to the regular Sherman the extra health and armor are nice but you wouldn't be using the Sherman to solo push a P4 or better anyways. Both have .75 moving accuracy and the good pen of the E8 stops being good at a P4J. But now I can get that tank commander along with VET1 ability for more range and extra penetration. So I need to pay more for a tank, upgrade then vet it to do what I wanted it to do to begin with along with losing mobility which my faction is known for.

Now for the Jackson the extra health and armor no longer factor due to the Jackson range keeping it out of harms way. The Jackson obviously pens better and its ability which also increases penetration and damage does not have a corresponding loss to mobility.

Now if we look at it as a 2 tank per side battle it gets even worse. Using both a non-doctrinal Sherman and Jackson vs 2 E8. The Sherman covers all of the Jacksons deficiencies and vice versa while being cheaper than the 2 E8.
20 Jun 2021, 12:42 PM
#39
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3121 | Subs: 7

and the good pen of the E8 stops being good at a P4J

The E8 demolishes a P4J too, because it has more hitpoints and high armor. It's an excellent vehicle against all medium tanks.



Now if we look at it as a 2 tank per side battle it gets even worse. Using both a non-doctrinal Sherman and Jackson vs 2 E8. The Sherman covers all of the Jacksons deficiencies and vice versa while being cheaper than the 2 E8.

But the game generally does not work that way. Tanks do not suddenly appear en masse in a vacuum. You'd be getting a Sherman out first while Axis get a P4(J) and they are going to cause bleed to your infantry while also having an advantage in the armor match up. Then you're getting a Jackson while they are getting a second P4, a TD or a Panther and you'll be down even more in AI bleed. With E8s you can just keep stacking them, dealing decent AI damage while also dominating the tank engagements until the Axis are forced to invest in a Panther or a heavy to deal with the E8s, at which point you'll have enough of them (2-3) to fight that off too. This is exactly the reason the 76mm was the dominating meta over the past months.
20 Jun 2021, 13:00 PM
#40
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 224


The E8 demolishes a P4J too, because it has more hitpoints and more armor. It's an excellent vehicle against all medium tanks.




But the game generally does not work that way. Tanks do not suddenly appear en masse in a vacuum. You'd be getting a Sherman out first while Axis get a P4(J) and they are going to cause bleed to your infantry while also having an advantage in the armor match up. Then you're getting a Jackson while they are getting a second P4, a TD or a Panther and you'll be down even more in AI bleed. With E8s you can just keep stacking them, dealing decent AI damage while also dominating the tank engagements until the Axis are forced to invest in a Panther or a heavy to deal with the E8s, at which point you'll have enough of them (2-3) to fight that off too. This is exactly the reason the 76mm was the dominating meta over the past months.


Demolishes is a rather strong word for the performance. Doesn't the E8 have 215 armor and P4J have 234?
Doesn't the Sherman have better AI so wouldn't a similarly competent player cause more bleed? A second Ost P4 would lose, P4J would be zoned out and the tank destroyers wouldn't cause any more bleed due to their horrific AI however I would expect the Panther to cause the scales to tip in favor of axis however due to cost I would have a time of opportunity to attack. But since you said 2-3 and included a heavy, 1 Sherman and 2 Jackson would demolish any Heavy while having smoke to retreat.

Also the 76mm had vastly superior ROF due to base stats plus VET along with 15 fuel cheaper cost which allowed and encouraged blobbing. The E8 doesn't have those perks.

Would you be against keeping everything as is but increasing the price of the Tank commander to say 70 muni while giving it the ability to call down a arty stike? Maybe something like the first Shell of the 240 artillery from Armor company. That way the commander has a way to deal with emplacements /PAK43 /Howitzer. A shared cooldown between all E8 to keep it balanced.
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