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The devs did it again... Buffed B4 into the heaven

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4 Jul 2021, 22:09 PM
#221
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

I'm inclined to agree that the cooldown is a bit fast given the potential.
5 Jul 2021, 03:29 AM
#222
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 954

I gave this one some time as artillery can take a fair number of games to figure out; however, after a few games I can say for certain the current B4 is far too strong. It's not so much the damage or suppression (which is annoying), it's that the cooldown on barrages is so short. A pair of them in a team game can essentially be firing constantly.

Here are the numbers; a barrage lasts 24 seconds followed by an 80 second cooldown. Since we have two B4s, that means 80s cooldown minus the 24s barrage time leaves us with 56s of waiting. However, since we want to stagger the barrages, we only need to wait for half of that: 28 seconds. That means if you have two B4s, you can have a shell hitting at most 28 seconds apart constantly. For the amount of damage it's doing, that's way too frequent.

With the current stats, I would increase the cooldown to around 110-120s.
5 Jul 2021, 03:55 AM
#223
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1735

80s cool down without muni requirements is nothing in 4v4.

I prefer if B4 went back to its meme canon design, with a few tweaks, than today change.

one shotting tank ftw
5 Jul 2021, 05:40 AM
#224
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

110s would put it in line with the other longest artillery barrage, the Land Matress.
6 Jul 2021, 00:45 AM
#225
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

110 sounds plenty reasonable frankly.
6 Jul 2021, 05:30 AM
#226
avatar of TanithScout

Posts: 67

Welome, Axis, to what it's like gettign Werfer'd off every pont in team games.

I think its totally balanced.
6 Jul 2021, 09:08 AM
#227
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

It is annoying, but after a few weeks I am confident that I have got a few good counters for opponents who go full b4 mode.
6 Jul 2021, 14:25 PM
#228
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 606

Welome, Axis, to what it's like gettign Werfer'd off every pont in team games.

I think its totally balanced.


Getting fucked off a point happens to both sides in team games.
7 Jul 2021, 19:29 PM
#229
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

Its the wipe % during the fucking that's the issue for both sides. The B-4 is just really good at actually wiping if the retreat isn't instant. Werfer on most big team maps with good blockers is just... really unpleasant. As Soviet in General Mud, that forces a 30 second+ retreat and minute+ return trip, if the werfer doesn't wipe the unit. Everyone hates being on the receiving end of high wipe potential units.
7 Jul 2021, 20:15 PM
#230
avatar of Densha Marx

Posts: 324

I think the brief cooldown being the problem with the new B-4 was clear very soon after the patch. Thankfully that shouldn't be difficult to fix.
9 Jul 2021, 12:14 PM
#231
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

Actually the latest patch closed the gap in multiplayer between Axis and Allies wins a little bit, not perfect but better than before. At 4vs4 Allies went up by roughly 2% and Axis went down by 2% that is a 4% difference better than before. It is similar or even better at the other temagame modes. You can check yourself by comparing by Custom range before and after the patch:

https://coh2stats.com/stats?range=range&statsSource=all&type=4v4&race=wgerman&fromTimeStamp=1623801600&toTimeStamp=1625788800

Let us nerf the units that play a big part in that without compensation at other units to just revert it? I really don't understand you. The devs got it in the right direction. Nerfing B4 can only be discussed by buffing other allied late game teamgame oriented units to not revert gained changes in winrate. In 4vs4 it is still somewhere at 46% Allies to 54% Axis, but in 3vs3 it is pretty close to beeing 50% to 50% atm.

Don't know what you think about that, but for me that are really great news!

In comparison to other units with high wipe potential that exist too, B4 still can't move and can simply be removed by a few clicks with the right commanders in a team game. Yeah, you just can't take Jaeger armor doctrine all the way to get Elephant + howitzer removal anymore. Take other commanders, adapt and have fun.

9 Jul 2021, 15:14 PM
#232
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13076 | Subs: 1

Actually the latest patch closed the gap in multiplayer between Axis and Allies wins a little bit, not perfect but better than before. At 4vs4 Allies went up by roughly 2% and Axis went down by 2% that is a 4% difference better than before. It is similar or even better at the other temagame modes. You can check yourself by comparing by Custom range before and after the patch:

https://coh2stats.com/stats?range=range&statsSource=all&type=4v4&race=wgerman&fromTimeStamp=1623801600&toTimeStamp=1625788800

Let us nerf the units that play a big part in that without compensation at other units to just revert it? I really don't understand you. The devs got it in the right direction. Nerfing B4 can only be discussed by buffing other allied late game teamgame oriented units to not revert gained changes in winrate. In 4vs4 it is still somewhere at 46% Allies to 54% Axis, but in 3vs3 it is pretty close to beeing 50% to 50% atm.

Don't know what you think about that, but for me that are really great news!

In comparison to other units with high wipe potential that exist too, B4 still can't move and can simply be removed by a few clicks with the right commanders in a team game. Yeah, you just can't take Jaeger armor doctrine all the way to get Elephant + howitzer removal anymore. Take other commanders, adapt and have fun.



That mentality is completely in wrong the direction. Commander patches are there to fix commander issues not balance issues and should be focus on that. If a commander ability or a Commander is OP it should simply be fixed.

Balance issues should be fixed by balances patches and not commander patches, else one gets a stale meta where the same commander is over and over again.
9 Jul 2021, 16:33 PM
#233
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jul 2021, 15:14 PMVipper


That mentality is completely in wrong the direction. Commander patches are there to fix commander issues not balance issues and should be focus on that. If a commander ability or a Commander is OP it should simply be fixed.

Balance issues should be fixed by balances patches and not commander patches, else one gets a stale meta where the same commander is over and over again.


Although it was called a "commander" patch it just wasn't a purely commander patch were some abilities were moved around or added. Balance was touched at multiple units for example at Ostruppen, LFH18, E8, Calliope and B4.

Even some nondoctrinal units were touched, for example REs or KT. This patch affects balance. If this doesn't fit your mentality you should suggest that to the devs. I'm personally happy with the shift in balance to more even teamgames.

Fact: After the "commander" patch the winrates in teamgames shifted to a more even distribution between allied/axis. Source: https://coh2stats.com/ ("All" games at 2vs2/3vs3/4vs4). At least the data up to today shows that.
9 Jul 2021, 18:16 PM
#234
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13076 | Subs: 1



Although it was called a "commander" patch it just wasn't a purely commander patch were some abilities were moved around or added. Balance was touched at multiple units for example at Ostruppen, LFH18, E8, Calliope and B4.

Even some nondoctrinal units were touched, for example REs or KT. This patch affects balance. If this doesn't fit your mentality you should suggest that to the devs. I'm personally happy with the shift in balance to more even teamgames.

Fact: After the "commander" patch the winrates in teamgames shifted to a more even distribution between allied/axis. Source: https://coh2stats.com/ ("All" games at 2vs2/3vs3/4vs4). At least the data up to today shows that.

The "fact" remains that B4 is doctrinal unit and as such it should not be used to balance the game.

If B4 is OP it should simply be nerfed regardless of faction balance.
9 Jul 2021, 19:04 PM
#235
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jul 2021, 18:16 PMVipper

The "fact" remains that B4 is doctrinal unit and as such it should not be used to balance the game.

If B4 is OP it should simply be nerfed regardless of faction balance.


Balancing commanders will be balancing the game as long as commanders are in the role of stuffing holes in nondoctrinal roster. At an ideal game commanders would only provide optional units and abilities which alter the way to play but are not necessary to win or overcome an opponent playstyle.

In CoH2 reality only Ostheer comes close to that, OKW and Soviets still do quite good, USF/UKF is an awful faction design with such big holes in their roster that a KT can slip through unnoticed.

So as long as factions are missing units in nondoctrinal roster balancing commanders means balancing the game.

The effect of the current commander balance affected game balance in such a way, you can see that at the winrates I stated. The winrates get influenced in a positive way, so don't change single units without having a greater scope at the whole faction if you don't want to revert the positive effect.
9 Jul 2021, 20:03 PM
#236
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 934 | Subs: 1


The effect of the current commander balance affected game balance in such a way, you can see that at the winrates I stated. The winrates get influenced in a positive way, so don't change single units without having a greater scope at the whole faction if you don't want to revert the positive effect.


Judging by your own logic, even if B4 is a result in 2% win rate change this only proves that unit is poorly balanced, because use of mentioned unit can determine the outcome of the game.

And what is even worst - its an low efford artilery unit which requre minimal input from a player to be effective. If Allies got their own KT version which would have increased win rates by 2% its would have been alright, because you actually have to play and control your armored unit to be effective.

This is not how you balance factions and its not how you balance the game to begin with.
9 Jul 2021, 20:24 PM
#237
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



Judging by your own logic, even if B4 is a result in 2% win rate change this only proves that unit is poorly balanced, because use of mentioned unit can determine the outcome of the game.

What kind of backwater logic is that?
Ofc use of X unit can determine outcome of the game.
Hell, vast majority of games where you don't use mainline infantry or tanks will end up in a loss, therefore mainline infantry and tanks are OP?

People who account for opposing units, anticipate and counter them will win. People who won't, will lose.
That's the "2%" you're talking about here.

And what is even worst - its an low efford artilery unit which requre minimal input from a player to be effective. If Allies got their own KT version which would have increased win rates by 2% its would have been alright, because you actually have to play and control your armored unit to be effective.

This is not how you balance factions and its not how you balance the game to begin with.

That's how ALL of indirect fire and artillery units work.
It might blow your mind, but static artillery pieces are not exactly micro intensive units.
9 Jul 2021, 20:53 PM
#238
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 934 | Subs: 1


What kind of backwater logic is that?
Ofc use of X unit can determine outcome of the game.
Hell, vast majority of games where you don't use mainline infantry or tanks will end up in a loss, therefore mainline infantry and tanks are OP?

What? You understand perfectly what I meant, stop trying to manipulate words into your narrative non-sence.


People who account for opposing units, anticipate and counter them will win. People who won't, will lose.
That's the "2%" you're talking about here.

Eh? Except OKW and Wehr top picked commanders are all countaining B4 counters anyway. But in any case, even if so, didnt soviets had ML20 and Axis had LeFH? By your perfect logic, it doesnt matter what howi you\your enemy have, as long as there are counters for it, therefore win-rates shoudnt be affected since any uncountered arty will win you games, during this or previous patch.


That's how ALL of indirect fire and artillery units work.
It might blow your mind, but static artillery pieces are not exactly micro intensive units.

You dont say. I didnt know that ML20\LeFH are mirrored B4s, with suppresion, with one even near shell being able to stop any inf advance, with shortest cooldown out of all howi units and so-on.

It doesnt matter how you try to invert it, its still a fact that out of all howi units B4 is the best one, with the biggest impact and its the easiest to use to be effective by a huge margine. Game has such units already, but thanks god they are not low efford ones, and they requare more then 2 clicks and 1 AA unit to be effective.

Say hello to VSL and self-spotting Elephant with which even noobs were able to win games.
9 Jul 2021, 22:15 PM
#239
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905



Judging by your own logic, even if B4 is a result in 2% win rate change this only proves that unit is poorly balanced, because use of mentioned unit can determine the outcome of the game.


Just to be clear: I never said that the B4 alone is responsible for a 2% higher allied winrate, which is in fact a 4% closing the gap. At 3vs3 it is even higher. But B4 is a part of the changes that lead to the more even winrates.
In the end a too strong B4 is far less dangerous for gameplay than a too strong Priest, Calliope, Panzerwerfer, Walking Stuka and so on, because these units are mobile, back up to safety and thus are way harder to destroy. Thats a second reason why I have less of a problem with a powerful B4.

On the other side I have not a problem with small nerfs to B4 at all, but that should happen in conjunction with small buffs at other late game units that get used more in teamgames than in 1vs1. Im just pretty happy that we are closer to an even winrate than we were in years. Seems the devs did something good, we shouldn't loose the grip on that one by reverting changes partly.
9 Jul 2021, 22:33 PM
#240
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 934 | Subs: 1



Just to be clear: I never said that the B4 alone is responsible for a 2% higher allied winrate, which is in fact a 4% closing the gap. At 3vs3 it is even higher. But B4 is a part of the changes that lead to the more even winrates.
In the end a too strong B4 is far less dangerous for gameplay than a too strong Priest, Calliope, Panzerwerfer, Walking Stuka and so on, because these units are mobile, back up to safety and thus are way harder to destroy. Thats a second reason why I have less of a problem with a powerful B4.

On the other side I have not a problem with small nerfs to B4 at all, but that should happen in conjunction with small buffs at other late game units that get used more in teamgames than in 1vs1. Im just pretty happy that we are closer to an even winrate than we were in years. Seems the devs did something good, we shouldn't loose the grip on that one by reverting changes partly.


I was never saying that B4 right now need drastic nerfs or that its the most broken unit in the game. B4 has its place as a unique howi with a different firing model and different behaviour. However, its an undeniable fact that right now, as it is, its just too good.

I was saying from the begining of this thread that if anything B4 just need ajustements in cooldown\suppression\price\vet\cp or any combination of mentioned stuff. It still has its place as a strong unit, it has its place in the soviet arsenal. It just shouldn't be better by a mile then other howis or, if it should, then it should be at least priced accordingly.
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