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russian armor

Penal versatility

15 Jun 2021, 20:03 PM
#1
avatar of Todore

Posts: 15

Its probably too late now for any suggestions because the patch is probably ready for release, but here's to future changes.
In the patch, both cons and penals will benefit from conscript repair package. This is a great change which adds versatility without making the ability too strong. It would be nice if conscript assault package got the same treatment where it would give access to ppsh for both cons and penals. Wehrmacht already has jaeger light infantry upgrade which affects grenadiers, panzergrenadiers and stormtroopers which is awesome and I don't see a reason why soviets shouldn't get the same privilege.
15 Jun 2021, 20:25 PM
#2
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 223

+1
15 Jun 2021, 21:22 PM
#3
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 467

Oh, thats a good idea.
15 Jun 2021, 23:21 PM
#5
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 590

i was thinking the same thing and what about the repair
15 Jun 2021, 23:27 PM
#6
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 298

Sounds like a sidegrade option
15 Jun 2021, 23:47 PM
#7
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 223

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jun 2021, 21:45 PMKatitof
A penal buff? Do you guys want vipper to have another stroke?


Jokes aside, would penals getting access to SMGs be that big of a buff? I mean they've had SMGs since Airborne Troops doctrine was introduced and it didn't seem to break anything (of course not back when it wasn't mutually exclusive with PTRS upgrade, because that was BS)

Is it just a case of a powerful unit being overshadowed by another? (In that case, airborne guards SMG).

I feel like SMG penals would be a downgrade even.
15 Jun 2021, 23:53 PM
#8
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 467


Snip


It is overshadowed by SVT Conscripts, which are just amazing in every way.

Also, SMG troops need an approach vector or they will bleed like CRAZY, and Penals don't naturally have one. So they would only work on maps where the sight blockers let them work. Its a side upgrade at best in most circumstances from their base SVTs.
15 Jun 2021, 23:57 PM
#9
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 743

Penal have very high rifle damage and would be punished overall by getting PPSHs imho. Will outshoot volks and grens at all ranges. If you desire a squad with close range PPSHs, there's none better than Shock Troops.
16 Jun 2021, 02:47 AM
#10
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 477

I would almost say scrap the PTRS upgrade + AT Satchel completely and give Penals access to the AT grenade that Cons get.
16 Jun 2021, 03:06 AM
#11
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Penal have very high rifle damage and would be punished overall by getting PPSHs imho. Will outshoot volks and grens at all ranges. If you desire a squad with close range PPSHs, there's none better than Shock Troops.


After the changes to Shock Army, PPSh and Shock Troops are no longer possible.
16 Jun 2021, 08:50 AM
#12
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 743



After the changes to Shock Army, PPSh and Shock Troops are no longer possible.


I meant just get a doc with shock troops, plenty of them, even the B-4 doc.
16 Jun 2021, 16:08 PM
#13
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 195

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jun 2021, 20:03 PMTodore
Its probably too late now for any suggestions because the patch is probably ready for release, but here's to future changes.
In the patch, both cons and penals will benefit from conscript repair package. This is a great change which adds versatility without making the ability too strong. It would be nice if conscript assault package got the same treatment where it would give access to ppsh for both cons and penals. Wehrmacht already has jaeger light infantry upgrade which affects grenadiers, panzergrenadiers and stormtroopers which is awesome and I don't see a reason why soviets shouldn't get the same privilege.

I have been bugging for this for 2 weeks now.
16 Jun 2021, 16:11 PM
#14
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 195

Penal have very high rifle damage and would be punished overall by getting PPSHs imho. Will outshoot volks and grens at all ranges. If you desire a squad with close range PPSHs, there's none better than Shock Troops.


But then your penciled in to certain commanders, or people just want something different. Also with the VET1 ability of Penals wouldn't it provide more synergy then conscripts which aren't really designed for it. Why is it such a problem when their is the jaeger upgrade that can be used by all of ost.

EDIT
As an example the new Soviet Reserve army with T1 opening would allow a complete army. The penals would be the backbone with options for CQC, medium range and some AT. The team weapon drop would allow for a weak hmg and true AT along with a commisar which could boost performance of troops and provide healing. The down side would be no prem med or heavy and heavy MP load.

Advance Warfare Tactics/Conscript support tactics could have 2 different openings instead of conscript spam.
16 Jun 2021, 16:20 PM
#15
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 743



But then your penciled in to certain commanders, or people just want something different. Also with the VET1 ability of Penals wouldn't it provide more synergy then conscripts which aren't really designed for it. Why is it such a problem when their is the jaeger upgrade that can be used by all of ost.

I just think you're downgrading your men with PPSHs overall for reasons already discussed (bleed on approach with expensive models etc.) Either way they're still grossly weaker than Shock Troops which will just make them get used less. We have penal PPSHs already in the Airborne commander iirc and how often do you see those?
16 Jun 2021, 16:22 PM
#16
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 195


I just think you're downgrading your men with PPSHs overall for reasons already discussed (bleed on approach with expensive models etc.) Either way they're still grossly weaker than Shock Troops which will just make them get used less. We have penal PPSHs already in the Airborne commander iirc and how often do you see those?


It is an airdrop in exactly 1 commander that can also upgrade conscripts. I would like to see the drop in at least 1 more commander
16 Jun 2021, 16:58 PM
#17
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3200 | Subs: 1


I just think you're downgrading your men with PPSHs overall for reasons already discussed (bleed on approach with expensive models etc.) Either way they're still grossly weaker than Shock Troops which will just make them get used less. We have penal PPSHs already in the Airborne commander iirc and how often do you see those?

Not to mention you do it with the call-in that puts SVTs on your cons. Using that call-in on cons is much more cost effective than using it for ppshs on penals. I also do not see the reason to make ppsh on penals more common, it's not super useful


It is an airdrop in exactly 1 commander that can also upgrade conscripts. I would like to see the drop in at least 1 more commander

That's a strong ability to give another commander so we'd need to be careful about that. And there's not much reason for ppsh on penals, they're available enough already on other units, which are better suited for them

Cons target size (with vet) + hoorah makes them a much better ppsh squad then penals imo
16 Jun 2021, 17:18 PM
#18
avatar of Todore

Posts: 15


I also do not see the reason to make ppsh on penals more common, it's not super useful.


Well, that's the point. It's not strong and doesn't change much, so why not just do it. Giving Grenadiers g43 in majority of cases is a downgrade or a sidegrade at best, but still having the option to do it if you want to is nice.
16 Jun 2021, 17:36 PM
#19
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 195


Not to mention you do it with the call-in that puts SVTs on your cons. Using that call-in on cons is much more cost effective than using it for ppshs on penals. I also do not see the reason to make ppsh on penals more common, it's not super useful
But that is not a reason for making it option. Let me make the choice. Some people just want to have fun.

That's a strong ability to give another commander so we'd need to be careful about that. And there's not much reason for ppsh on penals, they're available enough already on other units, which are better suited for them

Cons target size (with vet) + hoorah makes them a much better ppsh squad then penals imo


I can't find the VET for penal hopefully you can help answer or point me where to look(What would be Penal squad specs with 4PPSH and vet). Wouldn't a penal in a clown car with vet 2 make a good chase unit. The VET would help its accuracy right? Also doesn't the VET 1 passive help?
16 Jun 2021, 18:03 PM
#20
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5248

what would something to this tune feel like?

penals start with a mix of ppsh and SVts (make em cheaper if needed)
-this makes penals more aggressive, but also enables them to coexist better with cons instead of basically replacing them. it synergizes with the clown car and also gives soviet more brazen aggression which fits the units inspiration

allow them to upgrade to either upgrade and replace the PPSHs with more SVTs or PTRS.
this keeps their versatility and still allows soviet to have a "standard" fighting squad



as for the airdrop SVTs.... they shouldnt exist. cons were never meant to outfight the enemy, they are supposed to outlast them.

replace that with airdropped medical- something the soviet will certainly want, especially if it comes early. replace the airborne hut medical with a strafe or intel or something else.
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