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russian armor

KT is trash

Pip
9 Jun 2021, 11:31 AM
#21
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1546

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jun 2021, 09:43 AMLMAO
well atleast its better than the tiger. 4v4 average rank meta is either blob, med tank spam or td spam.


I'm going to keep suggesting unit limits until either the mod team puts three heart attacks in the back of my skull, or it's implemented.
9 Jun 2021, 11:44 AM
#22
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2530 | Subs: 4


The King Tiger has been absolute trash in 4v4 for a long time now...


No. A Spearhead King Tiger supported by 1-2 JP4s is almost unstoppable on lane maps.

Just because you see people with bad micro send a single unsupported KT into 4 allied Tank Destroyers on Steppes map doesnt mean the unit is trash. This is another issue, of course it's stupid as hell to stall for a KT when the enemy has loads of tank destroyers. Get a JP4 (or on urban maps: panther) first, then you get the KT
9 Jun 2021, 11:59 AM
#23
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 991



No. A Spearhead King Tiger supported by 1-2 JP4s is almost unstoppable on lane maps.

Just because you see people with bad micro send a single unsupported KT into 4 allied Tank Destroyers on Steppes map doesnt mean the unit is trash. This is another issue, of course it's stupid as hell to stall for a KT when the enemy has loads of tank destroyers. Get a JP4 (or on urban maps: panther) first, then you get the KT


True. As Soviet first get Su85, next IS2.
9 Jun 2021, 13:05 PM
#24
avatar of LSDuffy

Posts: 117

Listen here you ugly cunts, buff it's front armour. <444>3
9 Jun 2021, 13:40 PM
#25
avatar of redfox

Posts: 92

Listen here you ugly cunts, buff it's front armour. <444>3


I think it actually should be unvulnerable to teach people what tanks are all about. It's easy to counter still, just play where the KT is not!
9 Jun 2021, 14:43 PM
#26
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 758



No. A Spearhead King Tiger supported by 1-2 JP4s is almost unstoppable on lane maps.

Just because you see people with bad micro send a single unsupported KT into 4 allied Tank Destroyers on Steppes map doesnt mean the unit is trash. This is another issue, of course it's stupid as hell to stall for a KT when the enemy has loads of tank destroyers. Get a JP4 (or on urban maps: panther) first, then you get the KT

To be honest, if they have 4 TDs I'd personally suggest to just give up on armor (2 x JP4s or even JT will get deleted vs that line) and let them mill about in confusion/panic at the newly built rak AT guns.
9 Jun 2021, 16:52 PM
#27
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4045 | Subs: 3



It's not. It's easily the most reliable heavy tank in terms of AI power now. It has very good scatter and massive AOE. So it will deal damage with almost every shot, usually at the very least 40% damage to a squad per shot but generally even more. https://youtu.be/2FUa7u4B8aY?t=2062 as just an example (not just this moment but the entire match it did massive AI damage). It got 30 kills in like 8 minutes.


most reliable =/= reliable. In my experience I'd call it equal with other heavies. They can be great, but they don't land every shot.

It is. If it wasn't it would be the same as the old KT in terms of scatter, landing every hit. But when the AI decides to target models on the fringe of the squad, it can miss quite easily. Not to mention elevation also creates bigger issues.
MMX
9 Jun 2021, 18:04 PM
#28
avatar of MMX

Posts: 842 | Subs: 1



most reliable =/= reliable. In my experience I'd call it equal with other heavies. They can be great, but they don't land every shot.

It is. If it wasn't it would be the same as the old KT in terms of scatter, landing every hit. But when the AI decides to target models on the fringe of the squad, it can miss quite easily. Not to mention elevation also creates bigger issues.


i don't know how old the 'old KT' is you're referencing here, but if it is the version before the 2019 balance patch, after which the KT and most other heavies got a radical scatter/AoE adjustment, then it was an even greater random cannon than now. that one had a huge OHK area (more than 4x that of the live KT) but couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. it would randomly obliterate entire squads but mostly deal little to no damage to anything outside the 2.something m OHK radius.
if you were to put both versions side-by-side in a performance test i doubt you'd want the pre2019 balance patch version back, as the current KT kills faster and deals more damage on average per shot.
9 Jun 2021, 19:30 PM
#29
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4045 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jun 2021, 18:04 PMMMX


i don't know how old the 'old KT' is you're referencing here, but if it is the version before the 2019 balance patch, after which the KT and most other heavies got a radical scatter/AoE adjustment, then it was an even greater random cannon than now. that one had a huge OHK area (more than 4x that of the live KT) but couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. it would randomly obliterate entire squads but mostly deal little to no damage to anything outside the 2.something m OHK radius.
if you were to put both versions side-by-side in a performance test i doubt you'd want the pre2019 balance patch version back, as the current KT kills faster and deals more damage on average per shot.


No, the pre 2019 buff KT is what I complained about for years. The "old KT" that I refer is the 2016 or 2017 version. before it was given 3x scatter nerfs and had the OHK radius. That was a what I'd call a great/OP KT. It still had the same flaws of being slow, countered by 60 range TDs, but it wouldn't miss either.

Other then actually uploading a video showing the KT miss, there isn't anything I can say here except "no you're wrong". Again my experience comes from my games. If the KT was actually that good as displayed in sanders clip, it would be used as a stall tactic like heavies were a few years ago.
9 Jun 2021, 20:48 PM
#30
avatar of redfox

Posts: 92


If the KT was actually that good as displayed in sanders clip, it would be used as a stall tactic like heavies were a few years ago.


Well the clip is about a week or two old, so ... what are you saying? It IS that good, the video just shows you that.


it would be used as a stall tactic like heavies were a few years ago.


It is.
9 Jun 2021, 21:29 PM
#31
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 319

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jun 2021, 11:31 AMPip


I'm going to keep suggesting unit limits until either the mod team puts three heart attacks in the back of my skull, or it's implemented.


What restrictions would you implement? I'm trying to imagine in my head what kind of silliness would result from a hard cap of two of every kind of unit. Very diverse armies but also I would think that there would be underused units quite a bit. That or a lot of stockpiled manpower/fuel just waiting for units to be replaced as soon as they die.


Not saying it's a bad idea, I just want to hear what you were going for with it.
Pip
9 Jun 2021, 22:15 PM
#32
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1546



What restrictions would you implement? I'm trying to imagine in my head what kind of silliness would result from a hard cap of two of every kind of unit. Very diverse armies but also I would think that there would be underused units quite a bit. That or a lot of stockpiled manpower/fuel just waiting for units to be replaced as soon as they die.


Not saying it's a bad idea, I just want to hear what you were going for with it.


Primarily just Premium Mediums, Heavies, and Artillery pieces. Those are the things that cause a lot of problems in teamgames, at least in my opinion.

Being able to stack 6 panthers/LEFH/B4/Calliope/etc is part of the reason teamgames can be so very unfun to play.

Ideally "team wide" limits would be considered, but this causes issues with commander selection.
10 Jun 2021, 00:21 AM
#33
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1865

The gun is an RNG cannon now, it is slow, but it is very durable when supported. With that I'll say it is very good at holding singular points, usually VPs and can hold lanes well when coupled with an elephant/jt etc. Beyond that though it's pretty meh. Sometimes it'll knock 70% HP off squads and sometimes it'll miss entirely. I almost wish it had a substantially worse reload for better scatter because as we all know when we use it, it misses repeatedly, but when our opponent uses it, it wipes squads left and right.

That being said, I think the 2 points I mentioned above is what the KT must be used for in 4v4s; there's too many players and targets for it to move around the map as if it were a 2v2 or 3v3.

TL: DR: Use it as a defensive tank.


It's really good on the top or bottom of Port of Hamburg, as well as the city side of City 17, or almost anywhere on Essen. If I don't YOLO it, I often rack up 50-80 kills. It's mostly worthless on Red Ball, White Ball, etc. unless paired with a teammate that has a JT. It's kind of slow to vet, but once it hits vet 4 it seems pretty good.
MMX
10 Jun 2021, 03:51 AM
#34
avatar of MMX

Posts: 842 | Subs: 1



No, the pre 2019 buff KT is what I complained about for years. The "old KT" that I refer is the 2016 or 2017 version. before it was given 3x scatter nerfs and had the OHK radius. That was a what I'd call a great/OP KT. It still had the same flaws of being slow, countered by 60 range TDs, but it wouldn't miss either.

Other then actually uploading a video showing the KT miss, there isn't anything I can say here except "no you're wrong". Again my experience comes from my games. If the KT was actually that good as displayed in sanders clip, it would be used as a stall tactic like heavies were a few years ago.


Fair point. Honestly, I don't really remember how good/bad the KT was back in 2017 with regards to hitting reliably and the data I have only covers 2019 - now. But with significantly lower scatter it would surely have been more deadly back then.

As to the current performance, the video Sander linked is probably quite far to the lucky side of the RNG spectrum. Still, I'd argue the AI of the KT is excellent and, on average, beats that of any other heavy tank except maybe the KV-2. It sure does appear to miss the occasional shot, but most of the time it will now deal a good chunk of HP damage at the very least, which adds consistency at the expense of fewer one-hit wipes.
That's talking only from my personal experience of course, but I think a lot of the frustration with heavies, in particular the KT, missing shots too often comes down at least in part to confirmation bias.
10 Jun 2021, 06:41 AM
#36
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3126 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jun 2021, 03:51 AMMMX
As to the current performance, the video Sander linked is probably quite far to the lucky side of the RNG spectrum.


I use the Tiger II very often, and I'd say that video is nothing special. It does perform that well on average. It really is a beast nowadays, especially with Spearhead/HEAT/PC, it's just very slow and it needs proper support and the right circumstances to work (i.e. do not stall for it on Steppes when the enemy already has a bunch of TDs). Hard to use in mobile 1v1s, but great for the more local engagements in teamgames, on the smaller/clumped maps (Essen Steelworks etc.) or in combination with a JT/Elefant. I'd say it's in a really good spot now. Hard to use, but also very effective when used properly.
10 Jun 2021, 07:28 AM
#37
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1123



I use the Tiger II very often, and I'd say that video is nothing special. It does perform that well on average. It really is a beast nowadays, especially with Spearhead/HEAT/PC, it's just very slow and it needs proper support and the right circumstances to work (i.e. do not stall for it on Steppes when the enemy already has a bunch of TDs). Hard to use in mobile 1v1s, but great for the more local engagements in teamgames, on the smaller/clumped maps (Essen Steelworks etc.) or in combination with a JT/Elefant. I'd say it's in a really good spot now. Hard to use, but also very effective when used properly.


Hard to use? You just drive it up, front armor facing and that's it. The only hard thing about KT is the fact that you can't use it as a solo "I Win" unit. But if you do actually support it, which is not hard as OKW with stuka + elites, you can easily push into anything, especially in 2v2 and 3v3. The only "Problem" is 4v4 where you need to coordinate if the enemy has mass TDs... but then again, you don't build tanks when the enemy is spamming tank destroyers. Hell, I've won games where I didn't build a single tank in 3v3 purely because the enemy was spamming JP4s and Panthers.
10 Jun 2021, 13:44 PM
#38
avatar of LSDuffy

Posts: 117

For everyone sucking each other’s dicks over playercards, in my glory days I broke the top 20 4v4 random Wehrmacht. But for the last year was sitting just under 1000 in both axis 4v4 random. My player card really looks like ass these days because I haven’t been playing very much at all these last months due to being clinically insane, get paid and everything. I only made this thread because I really do believe the KT is a bad position and needs a slight buff to its front armour and no one could handle stomach the ridicule they’d receive from saying it. I’m way too crazy to play anymore but I hope that Katitof keeps abusing you smug assholes. Except Naplam, Naplam was always a fucking legend!

Bye Bye =’D
10 Jun 2021, 22:08 PM
#39
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 647

KT is fine only trash in Axis players hands that think it is auto win card, well supported unstoppable. Sure it misses some shots but when it does hit good chance it causes a squad wipe, maybe not the kts shot by iself but when it hits and only leaves 1 model with a sliver of hp left easily cleaned up by nearby axis inf. It with out a doubt does not need better front armor it already does quite well bouncing most allied at assets.
11 Jun 2021, 03:29 AM
#40
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 365

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jun 2021, 13:44 PMLSDuffy
I only made this thread because I really do believe the KT is a bad position and needs a slight buff to its front armour and no one could handle stomach the ridicule they’d receive from saying it.


375 front armor with 1280hp stock heavy isn't good enough for you, I don't know what is.
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