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Pershing vs Tiger. Shouldn't Pershing be buffed?

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20 May 2021, 16:53 PM
#241
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12268 | Subs: 1



This would be NICE, so we can be less reliant on mainline sandbag spam for cover throughout the game (not that you WANT to lose vehicles...).

Give me 100% health wrecks! Or more!

For Vipper: The panther is a general heavy tank, so its good vs everything. Which it is. Better vs tanks, but still good vs inf
.

Feel free to describe as you like, fact remains that it fills the role of TD, regardless of any other role you might want to add.
20 May 2021, 19:02 PM
#242
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 823

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2021, 07:21 AMmrgame2
a resource decrease to that of command panther seems most agreeable and a good extra buffs.

we have these buffs then

Combined Arms
The Combined Arms bonus is being increased for the following units as they have wind-up and/or wind down times that are animation related that are not affected by reload times.

M10s, M36s, Pershing and M8 Scotts receive a +20% reload bonus rather than +15% reload

The M26 Pershing is seeing its reload bonuses increased to compensate for the vehicle's wind-down time which is not affected by veterancy.




Since the nerf to Combined arms from 30% reload bonus to 15% was reverted back to 30%, I do think this one isn't the case anymore. I didn't read anything about giving them a +35% or +40% bonus to compensate wind-up and/or wind-down, so I do think it simply got reverted too. If Devs know more just let us know ;-)
22 May 2021, 01:16 AM
#243
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 539


The panther is a general heavy tank, so its good vs everything. Which it is. Better vs tanks, but still good vs inf.


Yeah that main cannon really blows infantry away
MMX
22 May 2021, 08:13 AM
#244
avatar of MMX

Posts: 842 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 May 2021, 01:16 AMKoRneY


Yeah that main cannon really blows infantry away


true... the MGs are pretty decent, though. only slightly worse than that of the Pz.IV or T-34, so not exactly bad for an AT-focused tank.
22 May 2021, 10:53 AM
#245
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1123

Panther without the pintle MG really needs to aim the frontal MGs at infantry to do some damage. The cannon is quite weak vs infantry. It can snipe models at best. But with pintle, and 2 frontal MGs, the infantry go down like butter. So no wipe potential but does bleed infantry.

Still, contrary to what Sander has said, I've found Pershing to not be any better in actual combat. Played 3 more games yesterday. Still needs 2 REs to actually repair it in any decent amount of time. The extra speed at vet2 does not actually amount to anything. Sometimes you can escape more easily but that's it. The vet3 +5% to reload I did not really feel... at all. The 11 CP is nice, it did make an entry sooner.
And I've tried using the CA in 3v3. Ended up losing infantry around it to. Only time I've actually made any progress with CA was using one infantry + jackson + pershing. And only if when pushing, the enemy had no stuka or werfer.
23 May 2021, 21:30 PM
#246
avatar of Sgt.BigHead

Posts: 65

Pershing is kind a semi-premium medium tank more than being a heavy. no need any buff against Tiger. Its fast and efficient allrounder ,with better ai supported best TD in game , and funny hand grenade thingy...Giving it self repair makes its repair time decrease can be good enough...
24 May 2021, 07:27 AM
#247
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 365

Its fast and efficient allrounder ,with better ai


https://youtu.be/ZeR8ZjeV_uM
https://youtu.be/fJ0hfawIg2A

Not quite true on "better AI" part. Only way Pershing deals better than Tiger significantly(That we can see wiping squad much faster), is making tank shooting while moving all the time. (Thx to 75% modifier on move accuracy)
24 May 2021, 07:34 AM
#248
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12268 | Subs: 1



https://youtu.be/ZeR8ZjeV_uM
https://youtu.be/fJ0hfawIg2A

Not quite true on "better AI" part. Only way Pershing deals better than Tiger significantly(That we can see wiping squad much faster), is making tank shooting while moving all the time. (Thx to 75% modifier on move accuracy)

accuracy does not make a big difference, it is the scatter that does.
24 May 2021, 07:35 AM
#249
avatar of Sgt.BigHead

Posts: 65



https://youtu.be/ZeR8ZjeV_uM
https://youtu.be/fJ0hfawIg2A

Not quite true on "better AI" part. Only way Pershing deals better than Tiger significantly(That we can see wiping squad much faster), is making tank shooting while moving all the time. (Thx to 75% modifier on move accuracy)


Not quite true on "better AI" part.................better than Tiger significantly...
24 May 2021, 07:41 AM
#250
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2460 | Subs: 2



https://youtu.be/ZeR8ZjeV_uM
https://youtu.be/fJ0hfawIg2A

Not quite true on "better AI" part. Only way Pershing deals better than Tiger significantly(That we can see wiping squad much faster), is making tank shooting while moving all the time. (Thx to 75% modifier on move accuracy)

In those Videos the heavies need to remove the sandbags with the first two shots that deal next to no damage. The Tiger can remove those more quickly because of the higher ROF and already has almost one 'free' shot after the sandbags are removed.
The test works as a comparison for killing targets behind sandbags, not for targets in open field. Generally stating that both tanks are on par from these tests only is not true, because we don't know about open situations.

Additionally, moving accuracy does next to nothing for AI capabilities.
24 May 2021, 07:52 AM
#251
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3126 | Subs: 7

Additionally, moving accuracy does next to nothing for AI capabilities.


Movhing highly affects the MGs' DPS though, which makes the Tiger lose a more significant amount of AI because it relies more on its MGs. The Pershing will have much better AI while moving and at 35-45 range because of its better AOE.
MMX
24 May 2021, 08:35 AM
#252
avatar of MMX

Posts: 842 | Subs: 1



Movhing highly affects the MGs' DPS though, which makes the Tiger lose a more significant amount of AI because it relies more on its MGs. The Pershing will have much better AI while moving and at 35-45 range because of its better AOE.


that's not quite so clear-cut i'm afraid. both have MGs with a moving acc multiplier of 0.5, meaning their moving DPS from MGs gets cut in half. however, they also both have a x2 multi to moving scatter, which doubles both angular and distance scatter. hence,the scatter area rises by the factor of 2^2 and, consequently, the chance to hit sth with the main gun is only roughly a quarter of that when standing still.
so the tiger should actually lose less dps on the move than the pershing on average
24 May 2021, 09:14 AM
#253
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1123



Movhing highly affects the MGs' DPS though, which makes the Tiger lose a more significant amount of AI because it relies more on its MGs. The Pershing will have much better AI while moving and at 35-45 range because of its better AOE.


I didnt know hull MG on pershing can shoot 360 for the acc to matter...
Cannon MG can fire only at the infantry that it's targeting. So in reality, Pershing is better at chasing but then again, Tiger has the pintle MG which is quite good.
Biased much?
24 May 2021, 09:14 AM
#254
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2460 | Subs: 2


Movhing highly affects the MGs' DPS though, which makes the Tiger lose a more significant amount of AI because it relies more on its MGs. The Pershing will have much better AI while moving and at 35-45 range because of its better AOE.

I actually just wanted to clear up the misunderstanding that better moving accuracy for the main gun helps vs infantry, which it counterintuitively does not. As MMX said and unless I missed an update, the Pershing's MGs get the regular moving debuff. Even if they were better, only zhe coax can always stay on target. And as you said yourself, MGs scale worse into the late game than the gun.

I did not question that the Pershing has better AI, the question discussed in this thread is if the AI advantage is really worth the other drawbacks. But on the move this advantage will even more 'dilute out'. The absolute advantage might diminish to the point that it is not really worth using such an investment on the move. Especially since the meta even at lower levels is 'stop and shoot', that makes moving accuracy/scatter bonusses not as strong as on paper.
24 May 2021, 09:35 AM
#255
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3126 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post24 May 2021, 08:35 AMMMX
however, they also both have a x2 multi to moving scatter, which doubles both angular and distance scatter. hence,the scatter area rises by the factor of 2^2 and, consequently, the chance to hit sth with the main gun is only roughly a quarter of that when standing still


That is why you stop micro. Which affects the main gun DPM but hardly has an impact on the MGs'.
MMX
24 May 2021, 12:31 PM
#256
avatar of MMX

Posts: 842 | Subs: 1



That is why you stop micro. Which affects the main gun DPM but hardly has an impact on the MGs'.


yeah that's a fair point of course. though there are quite a few scenarios where stop-shooting won't work out that well, like chasing down retreating squads, having to kite infantry with AT or a snare, or those situations where your tank cruises past a sight blocker and suddenly starts shooting (and consequently missing by a mile) at a squad that just popped their heads out of the FoW. hence why i think a moving scatter buff for the pershing wouldn't be a wasted vet slot, even though stop-shooting is without a doubt a thing.
24 May 2021, 13:48 PM
#257
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2010 | Subs: 1

to make a statement about the Tiger's damage, at first you need data of him hit a target.

however data about that is nonexistent
24 May 2021, 15:08 PM
#258
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2460 | Subs: 2



That is why you stop micro. Which affects the main gun DPM but hardly has an impact on the MGs'.

I still don't get your point why the Pershing should be overall much better moving. I'd say it os 'regularly better' compared to the Tiger.
MGs get affected the same by moving, scatter gets either quadrupled like the Tiger's or if microed properly the gun exhibits the same advantage as when stationary.
Especially for an AI focused tank moving is a much larger penalty than for an AT focused tank.
24 May 2021, 15:38 PM
#259
avatar of GoforGiantsV3

Posts: 65


I would much rather have the extra raw hitpoints over having to hope for miracle bounces (because 300 armor was not that special). The -50% reload was just ridiculous, especially when it could also get another -30% on top from Combined Arms. No other tank in the game had a reload bonus that high. A vet 3 Pershing with CA could reload in like 3 seconds.

As said before the only downside to the bigger HP pool is that it needs more repairs (is it even a downside? Better to spend more time repairing than having a dead tank). And that will be addressed next patch with the damage reduction modifier.



Pershing has better stock speed. It just didn't get any speed bonus with vet, but now it will. It will have 6.6 speed so it will keep the edge over the Tiger and IS-2.



No they don't. All of them get the reload bonus at vet 3. And the Persing will get an extra 5% to compensate for the wind down because it isn't affected by the reload reduction.


I meant not as you said.

I meant 'at that time. pershing have lots of disadvantages but at least could have better payback for at least reloadings. but now. same 30% reloading bonus both tiger and IS gets at V2 but why pershing V3? is there any reason to get same bonus as same roll(Call-in Heavy Tank) unit with different veterency?'

so. when 800HP pershing was get later Reload bonus but it had a return service for late reload bonus getting. but now, it's not.
24 May 2021, 15:53 PM
#260
avatar of GoforGiantsV3

Posts: 65



Axis
Panzer IV 180-234
Panther 270-286
Tiger 300
Brummbar 260-300
Sturmtiger 220
Tiger II 375

Elefant 400
Jagdtiger 450


Allies
Sherman variants up to 215
Comet 290
Churchill Croc/AVRE 290
Churchill Mk.VII 240
Pershing 270
IS-2 340
KV-1 270
KV-2 300
KV-8 260

ISU 340


Except for the superheavy TDs, Axis hardly have more or better armored tanks.



elefant's Penetration is 440/400/360.
it means all tank get penetrated 100% at all range after IS-2's armor nerfed 375 to 340.
German gets less RNG victim but allies does.

2 before this patch, Jackson's armor nerfed 130 to 110 so it can no more pray RNG against pz4(Pen : 125/115/110). must be penetrated 100% at all range.
and Next patch. Caliope will be nerfed same, 400HP 160Armor to 320HP 110 armor.

yeah. even panzer 4 gets benefit for RNG.
but last patch. Jackson's V3 pen bonus reduced 30% to 20%.
so V3 jackson's minimum penetration (260/240/220 -> 338/312/286) becames (260/240/220->312/288/264) 286 to 264.

do you noticed that number?
286 is panther's V2 skirted frontal armor. V3 Jackson can penetrated panther at all range at 100%, but it seems not lovely to patch team. so get nerfed.
Frankly at V3. Unskirted Panther can be penetrated 100% at all range without armor bulletin against V3 Jackson. but Allies Core units get no more RNG defense but german unit gets RNG defense at same patch.

ISU-152's Rear armor also get nerfed 140 to 110.

I clearly don't like patching Shapes. 'Less RNG' only benefits Axis it seems.

you must Clearly notice the number '110'
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