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Pershing vs Tiger. Shouldn't Pershing be buffed?

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20 May 2021, 07:14 AM
#221
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17869 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2021, 07:07 AMtheekvn

as Sander repply " high amor, hp and heavy crush = heavy tank :D "

If you refer to post 215, that's not what he said.
And he is right.

Talking weight, Panther and IS-2 are about equal. It was classified as heavy by literally everyone except megalomaniac germans.
20 May 2021, 07:16 AM
#222
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2021, 07:04 AMKatitof

For the same reason Churchill/KV-1 does not have 260 penetration.


Understandable, but At least churchill/kv1 dont cost 260 fuel to begin with.
20 May 2021, 07:20 AM
#223
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17869 | Subs: 8



Understandable, but At least churchill/kv1 dont cost 260 fuel to begin with.

Neither does panther.
20 May 2021, 07:21 AM
#224
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1792

a resource decrease to that of command panther seems most agreeable and a good extra buffs.

we have these buffs then

M26 Pershing
Pershing is being adjusted to be repaired faster due to its reliance on Rear Echelon squads to repair it. The Pershing is also receiving a slight speed buff once it has received veterancy to retain its role as a mobile heavy tank

Health from 960 to 800
15% damage reduction to retain 6 shot kill but faster repair times
Veterancy 2 provides +10% speed bonus
CP requirement from 12 to 11


Combined Arms
The Combined Arms bonus is being increased for the following units as they have wind-up and/or wind down times that are animation related that are not affected by reload times.

M10s, M36s, Pershing and M8 Scotts receive a +20% reload bonus rather than +15% reload

The M26 Pershing is seeing its reload bonuses increased to compensate for the vehicle's wind-down time which is not affected by veterancy.

Veterancy 3 reload bonus from +30% to +35%

HVAP Shot penetration from 400/350/300 to 1000/1000/1000

Resources required decrease to 520/200
20 May 2021, 07:24 AM
#225
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2021, 01:35 AMtheekvn

please, Panther is not a classical TD like Jpz4. It is prem-medium tank or high weight medium that forcus on AT department.
Because panther nature, He can stand alone with EVERY ALIES GENARAL TANKs and Inf ( with pintle MG).
Is that make sense to you ?

No it does not much sense, using a weight classification to avoid answering a questions does not make sense.

Regardless of everything else Panther in game is vehicle designed to counter other vehicles and thus has the role of a TD. So the questions still stands which unit feels the role of a TD better?

20 May 2021, 07:25 AM
#226
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2021, 07:20 AMKatitof

Neither does panther.


I didn't say panther is a heavy tank, did i ? Or we are missing each other ideal ?
20 May 2021, 07:25 AM
#227
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 306

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2021, 07:14 AMKatitof

If you refer to post 215, that's not what he said.
And he is right.

Talking weight, Panther and IS-2 are about equal. It was classified as heavy by literally everyone except megalomaniac germans.

Weight is not a real thing to make tank become heavy or medium, but the design.... For example M26 is heavy tank in WW2 but medium in Korean war.
As if M26 should become Medium, it would not be limmited to heavy tank price tag nor limited to 1 !.
Not to mention, alies TD should get back their vet pen because they already fight against non doc heavy tank or even worst case fight against KT,Tiger 1 and Panther as same time.
20 May 2021, 07:28 AM
#228
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 306

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2021, 07:24 AMVipper

No it does not much sense, using a weight classification to avoid answering a questions does not make sense.

Regardless of everything else Panther in game is vehicle designed to counter other vehicles and thus has the role of a TD. So the questions still stands which unit feels the role of a TD better?


I afair Jdpz4 is the best TD for axis.
20 May 2021, 07:30 AM
#229
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17869 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2021, 07:25 AMtheekvn

As if M26 should become Medium, it would not be limmited to heavy tank price tag nor limited to 1 !.

By that logic Valentine is a heavy tank, while Churchills are class fluid, depending on what's mounted on them and KV-1 are meds....
There is classification by role and by weight.
By weight, panther is a heavy in the eyes of everyone but germans.
20 May 2021, 07:33 AM
#230
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 306

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2021, 07:30 AMKatitof

By that logic Valentine is a heavy tank, while Churchills are class fluid, depending on what's mounted on them and KV-1 are meds....
There is classification by role and by weight.
By weight, panther is a heavy in the eyes of everyone but germans.

well, S-tank is MBT or TD ?
20 May 2021, 07:49 AM
#231
avatar of redfox

Posts: 92

@Sander or anyone else from the balance team, could we please get a reply and or opinion on the proposed cost reduction changes? Thanks in advance!
MMX
20 May 2021, 07:54 AM
#232
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

can we please stop the useless bickering about what makes a heavy tank and if the panther is one or not to get back to the original topic? can't believe i'd ever say this but the only reasonable suggestion within the last 2 pages came from mrgame2...
if further performance buffs are out of scope i agree that making the pershing cheaper and/or reducing pop slightly is the best solution. that way you have a formidable tank with comparable AI to most other heavies, while the lower survivability is compensated by the price tag and the fact you can squeeze another tank in your unit composition to make up for the lower AT.
20 May 2021, 08:11 AM
#233
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1792

I am thinking 550/200 instead of 520/200.
Pershing is better than cpanther, no?
20 May 2021, 08:11 AM
#234
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2021, 07:49 AMredfox
@Sander or anyone else from the balance team, could we please get a reply and or opinion on the proposed cost reduction changes? Thanks in advance!


I don't think it's needed. It's already getting 2 big and 3 minor buffs, and the combat bonus nerfs for CA will be reverted. It should definitely not get a price decrease to coincide with that. One step at a time. We can always revisit the price later.

I personally think the Pershing is already really good, I've been using it in automatch exclusively lately to test it, and that the currently planned buffs will only further cement this performance, primarily by taking away the biggest issue that is repair times.
20 May 2021, 08:27 AM
#235
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1792

What is this?

the combat bonus nerfs for CA will be reverted
20 May 2021, 08:39 AM
#236
avatar of redfox

Posts: 92


It's already getting 2 big and 3 minor buffs, and the combat bonus nerfs for CA will be reverted. It should definitely not get a price decrease to coincide with that. One step at a time. We can always revisit the price later.


Alrighty, I can go along with this. Even though I dont think the current buffs are big enough to close the gap between cost and return, I see that from a balancing/control point of view, this makes sense.

One might even suggest closing the thread for some time until the patch is live and we can discuss the then current state of the Pershing after intensive testing...
20 May 2021, 10:32 AM
#237
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 472

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2021, 08:27 AMmrgame2
What is this?



TL;DR;
Remove sight bonus / Cost 125 to 110 / CP 4 to 8

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/247045/commander-update-preview-and-public-beta-2021


Combined Arms
Combined Arms is being changed to maintain its high combat bonuses, but will no longer provide vision bonuses. CP requirements have been increased to match other buff abilities, with its cost being slightly cheaper from its original iteration of 125 to compensate for the loss of sight.

Reload from -15% to -30%; reverted to original value
Infantry Accuracy from +15% to +30%; reverted to original value
Reverted removal of infantry reload bonus; returned to -20% reload.
Infantry sight bonus removed
Cost from 90 to 110
CP requirement from 4 to 8
20 May 2021, 16:14 PM
#238
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



The Panther is a heavy tank, not a premium medium. Max health on a premium medium is 800. Panther has 960, same as the KV-1 or Pershing. As such, being good at AT and alright at AI is common. She's not a TD.




Don't put any stock into Relic's descriptions. Half of them are inconsistent or wrong.

The Panther is only a medium tank because the Germans classified it as such. It weighed as much or more than most heavy tanks of the time with similar or better frontal protection. It's also technically a heavy in game, because it has heavy crush.


Ultra Lights
Lights
Mediums
Advanced Mediums: Cmd PV, Panther, KV1, T3485...
Heavies: Tiger, TA, KV8, KV2, IS2, Churchill...
Super Heavies: KT, JT, ELE, ISU1

That's how they are classified based on their wrecks. Talking about it, is it possible to set the wreck HP to 100% instead of 50% so scavenging has any value?
Pip
20 May 2021, 16:22 PM
#239
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594


That's how they are classified based on their wrecks. Talking about it, is it possible to set the wreck HP to 100% instead of 50% so scavenging has any value?


Seconding this suggestion, I don't really see any reason they should start at half HP.

The raw increase in health would be welcome, as well; Vehicle wrecks really feel strangely fragile for some reason, especially when compared to something like a Sandbag.
20 May 2021, 16:36 PM
#240
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2021, 16:22 PMPip


Snip


This would be NICE, so we can be less reliant on mainline sandbag spam for cover throughout the game (not that you WANT to lose vehicles...).

Give me 100% health wrecks! Or more!

For Vipper: The panther is a general heavy tank, so its good vs everything. Which it is. Better vs tanks, but still good vs inf.
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