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Buff for 5 man grens

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17 Apr 2021, 16:28 PM
#1
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1488

After the nerf to the VSL upgrade on grens the this upgrade just does not poses a good reason to to be picked over lmg42's. They work vs cons but that's only with no svt or 7th man after that VLS grens are practicaly not very useful over lmg grens.
So I suggest a small buff. A change of cost from 50 muni from 60 muni.

I mean you could also nerf the LMG42 also to make VLS gren and g43 upgrade more appealing I guess, that would be cynical way of doing things.
17 Apr 2021, 17:00 PM
#2
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3430 | Subs: 2

Bullshit
17 Apr 2021, 17:06 PM
#3
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17522 | Subs: 8

This thread people, is how to spot someone who doesn't know about reinforcement HTs.

I mean you could also nerf the LMG42 also to make VLS gren and g43 upgrade more appealing I guess, that would be cynical way of doing things.


No, no, its great idea, it doesn't involve power creep, so even vipper will be happy, lets do this asap.
17 Apr 2021, 17:07 PM
#4
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1488

Bullshit

Can elaborate.
17 Apr 2021, 17:27 PM
#5
avatar of August1996

Posts: 223

I have to agree, there is not much reason to get 5 man Grens after the nerf, main reason why German Infantry Doctrine is picked is because of 5 man Grens. DPS nerf AND a RA nerf together is super harsh.
17 Apr 2021, 17:29 PM
#6
avatar of Gbpirate
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 952

I am not 100% up-to-date on what the stats are but nerfing LMG grens is not good.

Grens are, in their current state, probably the weakest standard infantry squad.
17 Apr 2021, 17:35 PM
#7
avatar of Butcher

Posts: 1200

Honestly haven't bothered using it in the latest iteration.

But isn't the design flawed to begin with? You get a guy with an StG (close to mid range) yet want to keep the Kar98k Grens at range. Wasn't really that cool on Volks to begin with... and those get more StGs.
17 Apr 2021, 17:47 PM
#8
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 523

Couldn't German Infantry veteran squad leaders upgrade be like Soviet mobilize reserves ?

Like with a greater munitions cost of 80 to get a 5th man with K-98 and a minor cover bonus ?
17 Apr 2021, 17:48 PM
#9
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3085 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2021, 17:47 PMJilet
Couldn't German Infantry veteran squad leaders upgrade be like Soviet mobilize reserves ?


You mean where they get an extra model and improved firepower?
17 Apr 2021, 17:51 PM
#10
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 523



You mean where they get an extra model and improved firepower?


Yeah but with a greater cost and later timing for example 3CPs. Not implying "it should be done that" way or anything like that. Just a suggestion for a unique doctrine for OST.
17 Apr 2021, 17:53 PM
#11
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1488



You mean where they get an extra model and improved firepower?

of topic but why can cons 12*7=80 while it not ok for any other squad. I find it weird. In terms of accuracy of con mosin's they are more accurate than pre nerf section enfield they also have a larger vet based acc bonus. I know the time in between shots is long even on vet 3 but wasn't the point of 1 volleying squads not a matter of fire rate but alpha damage.
17 Apr 2021, 17:55 PM
#12
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1488

I am not 100% up-to-date on what the stats are but nerfing LMG grens is not good.

Grens are, in their current state, probably the weakest standard infantry squad.

That was kind of a joke.
17 Apr 2021, 18:14 PM
#13
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17522 | Subs: 8


of topic but why can cons 12*7=80 while it not ok for any other squad. I find it weird. In terms of accuracy of con mosin's they are more accurate than pre nerf section enfield they also have a larger vet based acc bonus. I know the time in between shots is long even on vet 3 but wasn't the point of 1 volleying squads not a matter of fire rate but alpha damage.

Timing.
Unless you really do not understand the difference of impact between losing a model when you have 3-4 units on field and its all infantry vs having 8-10 including tanks.

Cons at their 7 man timing do absolutely nothing exceptional, because at their timing you already have tanks on the field, sniping models all the time.

Do you now see the difference between that and 3 min bolstered tommies or 5 man grens doing the same before even lights roll out?
17 Apr 2021, 18:37 PM
#14
avatar of JPA32

Posts: 178

So when comparing the 3 variations of standard Grens at the moment (This is assuming balance patch G43's) it's important to understand what each version is trying to accomplish and if it succeeds or not (Whether they're "good or bad" in the general sense is another topic entirely because that's independent of the role they fulfill and can be changed via statistics if necessary assuming the core foundation is built properly.)

So we have LMG-42 Grens, VSL Grens, and G43 Grens.

LMG-42 Grens want to be placed as far away as humanly possible from a fight due to their 4 man squad size and high damage reverse scaling LMG. This means they have no tools for aggression as the closer they move towards an enemy, the less effective they become relative to their enemy who will scale better. This provides them excellent defensive capability, but exceedingly poor ability to step up and take ground. Technically this is a success but given the nature of the game this proves underwhelming but they work with what they're designed to do.

VSL Grens are basically a Grenadier Squad with somewhere between a 25% and 30%* (Estimation sorry don't know real numbers) damage increase at all ranges. This provides them excellent versatility in combat at the cost of no true specialization in terms of damage, but provided the 5th man and free medkit healing allows this unit to stay in the field for a longer effective time gives them survivability. Unfortunately this squad has some counter-productive drawbacks to it's supposed universal nature. Being Grens they really cannot move and shoot so while you're decent across the board in combat, you can't actually move and take ground as effectively as you'd think so you end up just having a weird discount LMG-42 Gren squad that bleeds damage faster most of the time with higher impact model losses, and even if you do manage to plant the squad in an effective place at close range, the model attrition the squad takes hurts significantly more than other squads with it's damage not being primarily focused on it's weapon like other squads, so you end up not getting to utilize your survivability enough to take full advantage of this as you've lost too much damage to effectively stay in. It results in a strange squad to use that has drawbacks that directly counter it's strengths but isn't necessarily unusable but isn't exactly desirable. I'm a bit lost on the point of how to effectively field these and feel more tweaks could be done to play into the survivability and field presence more like with the existing Free Med Kits (Faster reinforce time? Cheaper Reinforce? Should they have a trade off for this? ultimately what those changes should be I don't know.)

And G43 Grens are a healthy mix between Ass Grens and old VSL Grens. They're provided 3?* (I don't remember) G43 Rifles that have the standard insane moving accuracy modifier but barely lose damage at range (If losing any at all) which allows you to use them at distance like normal unupgraded Grens (So you aren't completely ruined at distance) but provide Grens a way to close distance with the damage resistance and take ground effectively with the respectable close range G43 damage profile. It's a welcome upgrade that filled a niche originally filled by the old VSL Grens without providing them insane superpowers. Mechanically these are perfect and do exactly what you want them to do on a fundamental level.

tl;dr LMG-42 Grens do what they're supposed too but underwhelmingly, VSL Grens do good damage across the board but don't have any notable strength and are a counter-productive squad to their own function, G43 Grens provide Wher with an aggressive mobile mainline infantry that they lack in the current iteration of the game (Not counting the Jaeger Command Squad)
17 Apr 2021, 19:12 PM
#15
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1614

The only way to make Jeager and VSL upgrades viable is to remove any bonuses to RA or stats and merge them across all commanders, go back to 5 men grenadiers with a G43
17 Apr 2021, 19:14 PM
#16
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17522 | Subs: 8

The only way to make Jeager and VSL upgrades viable is to remove any bonuses to RA or stats and merge them across all commanders, go back to 5 men grenadiers with a G43

And German Infantry Doctrine was never used again.

Yeah, lets just put 5 man grens on a tiger commander, what could possibly go wrong?
17 Apr 2021, 19:16 PM
#17
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1614

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2021, 19:14 PMKatitof

And German Infantry Doctrine was never used again.

Don't worry, nobody uses it anyway
17 Apr 2021, 19:17 PM
#18
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 523

The only way to make Jeager and VSL upgrades viable is to remove any bonuses to RA or stats and merge them across all commanders, go back to 5 men grenadiers with a G43


Making VSL into something like bolster or Mobilize Reserves while postponing its timing could definitely work. It is not black magic or rocket science. Also, as a visual thing, can we get the veteran leader as an Obersoldaten model ? @Sander93

17 Apr 2021, 19:23 PM
#19
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 175

With the bullshit 7man upgrade existing I see no reason as to why Ostheer couldn't have the old 5men gren upgrade behind the T4 that can beat double bar RM. I mean 7men grens arrive so late that its ok that they beat g43gren cqc 100% of the time. With same idiotic logic of giving grens late game upgrade option instead of LMGs we could easily justify same broken bullshit of having good field presence and tools early but still super good scalability to late game. Same could be applied for OKW giving volks option to get LMG instead of STGs.

We could have nice things but unfortunately axis lost the war so they do not get the 7men treatment for late game.
17 Apr 2021, 19:27 PM
#20
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1614

With the bullshit 7man upgrade existing I see no reason as to why Ostheer couldn't have the old 5men gren upgrade behind the T4 that can beat double bar RM. I mean 7men grens arrive so late that its ok that they beat g43gren cqc 100% of the time. With same idiotic logic of giving grens late game upgrade option instead of LMGs we could easily justify same broken bullshit of having good field presence and tools early but still super good scalability to late game. Same could be applied for OKW giving volks option to get LMG instead of STGs.

We could have nice things but unfortunately axis lost the war so they do not get the 7men treatment for late game.

The problem is that Grenadiers focus their dps output around one model, 5 men lmg grenadiers would risk being op
5 men grenadiers with 1 G43 and a cooldown buff for the rest of the rifles could be tested as Jägers replacement
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