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Why no more non-linear teching

9 Apr 2021, 14:51 PM
#1
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

Why has all non linear teching been removed. Ost and Sov now essentially have linear tech. All the risk of USF non-linear teching has been removed. Only OKW and Brit has somewhat of non-liner teching but for the british it's just essentially the same thing as doctrine choice. WHy????
9 Apr 2021, 15:08 PM
#2
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2758 | Subs: 4

All the risk of USF non-linear teching has been removed. Brit has somewhat of non-liner teching


:loco: ???
Pip
9 Apr 2021, 15:17 PM
#3
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

Why has all non linear teching been removed. Ost and Sov now essentially have linear tech. All the risk of USF non-linear teching has been removed. Only OKW and Brit has somewhat of non-liner teching but for the british it's just essentially the same thing as doctrine choice. WHy????


Non-Linear Teching is not ideal, sadly. Linear Teching is a better fit for game balance, as things are currently designed.

Ideally all factions might have a teching system similar to what UKF are "meant" to have, choosing between a couple of "paths" while teching up... but there aren't really enough units per faction to make locking some out with non-linear tech choices viable.

For example: If path "A" for a faction contains the MG, AT gun, and Mortar, path "B" needs to have viable alternatives for these vital units along its path. You simply can't be without some tools and expect to be able to cope.

SOV could probably do it, if some of their doctrinal units were nondoctrinal, the DsHK, M-42, and 120mm.


As it stands, comparatively Linear Teching really is the best choice.
9 Apr 2021, 18:09 PM
#4
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Why has all non linear teching been removed. Ost and Sov now essentially have linear tech. All the risk of USF non-linear teching has been removed. Only OKW and Brit has somewhat of non-liner teching but for the british it's just essentially the same thing as doctrine choice. WHy????


Because people didn't like facing:

-Maxim spam, precision strike mortars and pre nerf Zis gun barrages

-Double man snipers, clowncars and post rework Penals.

-Pre nerf T70, M5 Quad of doom and Su76 spam.

OH and UKF has always been linear tech with sprinkle options on late tech.

OKW and USF (more so, compared to last BHQ rework) remains to be non linear teching though the ideal tools are accessible.


When you limit options, the options you have available need to be strong enough to carry you while having less tools than your opponent.
People don't like facing spam of single units or cheesy ones.
9 Apr 2021, 21:57 PM
#5
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



Because people didn't like facing:

-Maxim spam, precision strike mortars and pre nerf Zis gun barrages

-Double man snipers, clowncars and post rework Penals.

-Pre nerf T70, M5 Quad of doom and Su76 spam.

M8 that has jack all to do with non-linear tech and more to with balance


OH and UKF has always been linear tech with sprinkle options on late tech.


UKF sure but OST not tier skipping is the main part of it's design.

OKW and USF (more so, compared to last BHQ rework) remains to be non linear teching though the ideal tools are accessible.


When you limit options, the options you have available need to be strong enough to carry you while having less tools than your opponent.
People don't like facing spam of single units or cheesy ones.

People seems also dislike to take risks
9 Apr 2021, 22:27 PM
#6
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


M8 that has jack all to do with non-linear tech and more to with balance


UKF sure but OST not tier skipping is the main part of it's design.

People seems also dislike to take risks


No, it's all about the power of the units which makes you not require diversifying your army. That's by design. People didn't like that design therefore more linear teching.

-Soviets didn't need support weapons when they could just spam sniper/clowncar into T4 Su85/skip tech into doctrinal tanks
-Soviets didn't need main line infantry when they could spam Maxims with Zis gun into T70/Doctrinal tanks/T34 spam.

-USF didn't need support weapons when you could just play with Rifles + M20/Stuart + Shermans every game.

-OKW didn't need support weapons when they just could spam Volks into Obers + PV/KT

_____________________

OH before reworks was either opting between T3 or T4 because the tech cost was prohibit to get both in non +40 min games.

____________________

There was risk. Problem is that people tend to not like cheese and getting defeated by spam army of small diversity unit compositions.
9 Apr 2021, 22:34 PM
#7
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



There was risk. Problem is that people tend to not like cheese and getting defeated by spam army of small diversity unit compositions.

But that still isn't a problem with non linear teching. It's more a problem with the balance not being good.
9 Apr 2021, 22:40 PM
#8
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8


But that still isn't a problem with non linear teching. It's more a problem with the balance not being good.

Because if you have forking teching that discourages/punishes backtech, units you do get need to punch above their cost due to lack of other half of supporting units from the path you didn't took.... that's a definition of "blance not being good" which is what elchino7 is saying.
9 Apr 2021, 23:09 PM
#9
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2868 | Subs: 2

The issue is that CoH2 does not have enough 'different' units, so every unit has to be unique and cover its own niche without too much overlap. Non linear tech trees therefore force you to skip essential units. At the same time the whole game is designed to be a 30-50 minute match instead of 15 min rushes until someone has to realize that he won't win anymore. This means that lacking an essential unit is a huge disadvantage in the long run if it does not allow you to pull off the rush tactic.
So either you
1) allow easier access to all essential units (OKW and USF)
2) load units with lots of different roles so that they can cover the holes (basically old and still current UKF)
3) mirror units between tech tiers, at which point they only become similar flavors of the same thing. Usually barely possible if you already have few units to distribute among a lot of roles as in the case with CoH.
4) make the choice non-essential.

Point 3+4 in my opinion can be seen in OKW T1/2: both tiers have an arty option that is okay even in the late game. The LVs are all good enough to get you to the late game but overall non-essential since the important MG and ATG are recruited from the HQ. USF got their backtech price reduced to grab essential support weapons. The LVs are not important at that point.
9 Apr 2021, 23:47 PM
#10
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


But that still isn't a problem with non linear teching. It's more a problem with the balance not being good.


How hard is for you to understand that THAT kind of design is not a balance problem. If you have OH vs SU at 50% WR, it would be balanced.

You can't have linear teching vs non linear teching while having the strength of non linear tech units been equal to those who have access to everything.

The whole point of all 3 DLC factions on release was lacking tools but compensated by having their limited options been stronger.
10 Apr 2021, 05:16 AM
#11
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

The issue is that CoH2 does not have enough 'different' units, so every unit has to be unique and cover its own niche without too much overlap. Non linear tech trees therefore force you to skip essential units. At the same time the whole game is designed to be a 30-50 minute match instead of 15 min rushes until someone has to realize that he won't win anymore. This means that lacking an essential unit is a huge disadvantage in the long run if it does not allow you to pull off the rush tactic.
So either you
1) allow easier access to all essential units (OKW and USF)
2) load units with lots of different roles so that they can cover the holes (basically old and still current UKF)
3) mirror units between tech tiers, at which point they only become similar flavors of the same thing. Usually barely possible if you already have few units to distribute among a lot of roles as in the case with CoH.
4) make the choice non-essential.

Point 3+4 in my opinion can be seen in OKW T1/2: both tiers have an arty option that is okay even in the late game. The LVs are all good enough to get you to the late game but overall non-essential since the important MG and ATG are recruited from the HQ. USF got their backtech price reduced to grab essential support weapons. The LVs are not important at that point.

"essential tool" I forgot that this game unlike the first does the mistake of having hard counters.
10 Apr 2021, 05:23 AM
#12
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



How hard is for you to understand that THAT kind of design is not a balance problem. If you have OH vs SU at 50% WR, it would be balanced.

You can't have linear teching vs non linear teching while having the strength of non linear tech units been equal to those who have access to everything.

The whole point of all 3 DLC factions on release was lacking tools but compensated by having their limited options been stronger.

I'm sorry what. Your saying Units were made so strong that their weakness was negated. HOW TF THAT
IS NOT A BALANCE PROBLEM. Like what hell do you people think balance is.
10 Apr 2021, 07:50 AM
#13
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8


"essential tool" I forgot that this game unlike the first does the mistake of having hard counters.

If you think CoH1 didn't had hardcounters, you're beyond delusional.
10 Apr 2021, 08:03 AM
#14
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2021, 07:50 AMKatitof

If you think CoH1 didn't had hardcounters, you're beyond delusional.

Plz do educate.
10 Apr 2021, 08:45 AM
#15
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8


Plz do educate.

Ok, I will educate you:
Mareder, g-wagen, M10, panther, ATGs all are hardcounters to armor while being hardcountered by infantry/at infantry themselves.
Smoke was ULTIMATE HARDCOUNTER to all HMGs, because smoke REMOVED ANY AND ALL suppression.
ATHT was ultimate hardcounter to any LV in its range.
222 was ultimate hardcounter to infantry, even if that infantry had AT weapons.
Bike and jeep hardcountered snipers quite badly.
Stormtroopers hardcountered all weapon teams or all vehicles, depending on how you upgraded them.
Flak88 hardcountered any and all single vehicles.
Certain infantry units completely hardcountered other infantry units simply because of having certain armor type.
Deployed stubby P4 murderfucked all infantry in range - that's called hardcountering too.


There was even a hardcounter to receiving attrition in form of zombie units.

Is your bubble of ultimate delusion and ignorance shattered now or will you stick to your opinion, regardless how stupid and non factual it is?
10 Apr 2021, 08:48 AM
#16
avatar of turbotortoise

Posts: 1261 | Subs: 4


Plz do educate.


Sniper > kch
Tiger ace > everything
M57 > stug/t2 + 3
Puma upgun > m8
Flamer > building
Commandos > wehr inf
Falls > us inf
Nebels > emplacements
Jeep/bike > sniper
Ostwind > us inf

just some of my favourites?
10 Apr 2021, 12:03 PM
#19
avatar of C3 TOOTH

Posts: 176

React to enemy's choice isnt just for Commanders, its also for units/teching.

The game used to have Soviet able to push T3 or T4 much earlier on Ost T2 units. The game end right there if Soviet success. If fail, Ost wins. Either you win now, or never win.

Nowaday everyone wants to have equal chance in late game.
10 Apr 2021, 17:24 PM
#20
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


I'm sorry what. Your saying Units were made so strong that their weakness was negated. HOW TF THAT
IS NOT A BALANCE PROBLEM. Like what hell do you people think balance is.


Because that's the whole point of a limited tool army. The enemy either exploits your weaknesses or you can just overcome it and win. It's a more polarizing way of gameplay.

If both sides have close to 50% chances of winning the game, regardless of how they achieve it, then it's balanced. What you have issues with is design/gameplay.

Right after WFA released, the only 2 match ups which remained balanced were OH vs SU and USF vs OKW. With the 2nd been the most polarizing example of this design. USF would had to win in 20 mins and OKW struggling to survive till late game which would basically be an auto win.
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