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russian armor

4v4 win rates disparity

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7 Apr 2021, 10:41 AM
#41
avatar of TomDRV

Posts: 103

I play all factions.

I think the armour balance is good where it is.
Allied TD's are rewarding but need to be used intelligently and axis armour feels superior when rushed forward with full support (smoke/inf etc) to block out the allied TD sniping.

My team haven't had much of a problem against axis heavy TD's https://youtu.be/h-WguJkKYnY?t=656 (this is an extreme example though)

The issues I see:
- Lack of counters to on-map arty in team games. If the other team gets a few vetted on-maps it's gg from the manpower bleed.
- Not sure how to get a solution for this (but it shouldn't be nerfing
the arty)

- Allied TDs crutch on snares to hold their engagement range while keeping panzers from retreating away. Every time we've lost a tank battle, it's been because we haven't had enough snares
I would:
- Keep the T-34 ram damage & engine crit as is, but replace the T-34
immobilised crit with engine damage & destroyed main gun. (so it has a
chance at retreating for another day)
- Speed up US rifle-nade snare (even better, just replace it with a
regular AT nade)

- Lack of Brit indirect: brits are completely shut down against OKW with leigs & MG34s and crutch on the mortar pit against Ostheer (again nullified if a teammate OKW gets liegs or the ostheer pulls of a push and gets to the pit with shreks & at gun. Also 2x microed ost-mortars = dead pit
- UKF NEED a mobile mortar. For faction variety why not give them a halftrack mortar non-doc? Or take the soviet 120mm mortar skin and rename the ML 4.2in. If the second option, it could serve as a justification for brits not having a T3 arty vehicle.

- Also, all factions should have a non-doc forward retreat or none should.
- Ostheer: Halftracks deploy into a forward retreat (reinforcing) with
medics (lose mobile back-seat medical regen)
- SU: Make the airborne doc forward retreat post non-doc. But remove innate reinforcing (due to merge). SOVs will need to place a halftrack with it.





7 Apr 2021, 10:41 AM
#42
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 918

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Apr 2021, 10:31 AMLMAO
Basically this thread is just nerf axis buff allies.


Not really. Nobody is saying to nerf axis. Allies late game power is being discussed in teamgames like 3v3 and 4v4 (less so 2v2).
7 Apr 2021, 11:15 AM
#43
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 984

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Apr 2021, 10:31 AMLMAO
Basically this thread is just nerf axis buff allies.

It is about buff allies late game to have the same chance win.
7 Apr 2021, 11:51 AM
#44
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 192

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Apr 2021, 10:41 AMTomDRV
I play all factions.
My team haven't had much of a problem against axis heavy TD's https://youtu.be/h-WguJkKYnY?t=656 (this is an extreme example though)

The problem is that you need insurmountably more effort to deal with heavy TDs then be effective with them. And on top of that such units promote camping. Camping promotes boring and stale gameplay.


Come on, balance team, you already did it with ISU, for which I'm very grateful, do it to JT and Ele.
7 Apr 2021, 11:59 AM
#45
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 734

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Apr 2021, 10:31 AMLMAO
Basically this thread is just nerf axis buff allies.


Did you looked at the graphs?.
Do you think this is how it should be?

It is about buffing allied lategame, because the winrate differences stretch up to nearly 19% in some weeks (UKF at 3vs3 in comparison to OKW in 3vs3 for example).

At the same time allied factions (especially Soviet/AEF) are always some percentage points above axis in 1vs1.

I would nerf allied early game slightly (infantry/light vehicles) and buff late game units distinctly (with cost/timing and limit adjustments). I can't understand that the upcoming patch will bring further nerfs to allied lategame units like Calliope without a compensation. That is irresponsible if you look at those graphs.
7 Apr 2021, 12:01 PM
#46
avatar of Sumi

Posts: 117

I am sorry my friend as much as I feel for you, nothing good will come out of this post unless any balance team members feels like humoring you or if any of them believe this to be true which is a long shot. I have tried myself raising voices aginst such changes but in the end instead of a change it ends up being a rant thread and you forget and move on with the game as it is. But fret not, because sooner or later the allies will evidently underperform in team games which will cause the balance team to buff allies and the same cycle restarts.
7 Apr 2021, 12:05 PM
#47
avatar of Kisiel
Benefactor 115

Posts: 90

Who is even on this mythical balance team? Can we ask them about thier opinion on this subject and what solution, if any, would they propose?
7 Apr 2021, 12:08 PM
#48
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 221


At the same time allied factions (especially Soviet/AEF) are always some percentage points above axis in 1vs1.


Not "ALWAYS"

https://coh2stats.com/stats/week/1615161600/1v1/wermacht
https://coh2stats.com/stats/week/1615766400/1v1/wermacht

Now there is just so few(about 1/6 or less of total game played) of UKF 1vs1 player, that WR is just dancing around 42 ~ 52%.
7 Apr 2021, 12:13 PM
#49
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17414 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Apr 2021, 12:05 PMKisiel
Who is even on this mythical balance team? Can we ask them about thier opinion on this subject and what solution, if any, would they propose?

You can find a list somewhere on one of relic posts thanking them by name for effort, but what they personally think and what they tell us through chosen mouthpiece are two different things and there is no universal agreement between them on what and how to change.
7 Apr 2021, 12:17 PM
#50
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5319 | Subs: 28

Yeah we in the BT have everyone self an opinion. And then we discuss and vote about stuff. We saw this thread and discussing it. But there are factors in this all, which are not shown in the stats!
7 Apr 2021, 12:22 PM
#51
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 734

Yeah we in the BT have everyone self an opinion. And then we discuss and vote about stuff. We saw this thread and discussing it. But there are factors in this all, which are not shown in the stats!


Yeah, i do understand that. But if you have a difference that is always at least about 10 percentage points each week and that reaches up to 19% in the given time at that side, there is something more than factors that are not shown in that stats.

You can't put it aside like that.
7 Apr 2021, 12:37 PM
#52
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5319 | Subs: 28

About why axis have higher win rate in 4vs4! :
1.in random vs random axis are most of the time better. But in premade vs premade allies are stronger. Allies random don't know how to counter a mg or killing a tank.

2. Matchmaking is fail atm. When you search axis you get top 100 mates but only facing 1k to 6k allies. So ofc axis wins. Just look last streams from duffman. Shows the same. And when duffman played random allies, he got friendly snipes.
So yes atm something is wrong in 4vs4. But imo its not the unit balance self. Something in the matchmaker is not working. It wasn't so worse in past. Ofc there were days where you faced as top 100 1k-6k but it happend on axis and allies sind. Now its only on allies side.
So ofc axis has higher winrate.
As said look duffmann stream, or rosebone thread, or ask aerafield. He tried in the last week to play random allies and no chance at all from matchmaking.

3. As allies random: Ban redball, port of hamburg. Snow maps are not that bad. Lower your settings or get better pc if you have still problems.

Offtopic you guys saw the wins from allies in 1vs1? 3 time 52 % allies faction. poor wehrmacht 44 % lol.
Brits with the highest. But on the other side you don't see brits in 1vs1 Cups, because people know how to counter it.

7 Apr 2021, 12:42 PM
#54
avatar of Kisiel
Benefactor 115

Posts: 90

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Apr 2021, 00:10 AMKisiel
this is the way it has been for 15 years. It was never addressed and never will be.


Told ya. L2P, matchmaker sucks, 1v1 winrates lololol bye
7 Apr 2021, 12:43 PM
#55
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5319 | Subs: 28



Considering they play Axis AT teamgames, I'd say they like it and will not change it. Why would they change it if it suits them (not to mention they are German so it naturally comes to play with Germans, nothing wrong with that). If they vote on it then you can be sure that there is no real balancing going on. Democracy fails when you try to balance a game that has more factors than the US has fat kids.


Stop spreading lies! :banned:

Aerafield and me playing always the sides, which are not soo popular or small weaker
--> faster games
--> more challanging games
--> want to play both side, more fun. Its boring only playing 24/7 only allies or axis

Beside that if you check the playercard, you would see that we play all 5 factions!

And then there are many others who are main 1vs1 or 2vs2 players in the BT too.
7 Apr 2021, 12:46 PM
#56
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 465



Considering they play Axis AT teamgames, I'd say they like it and will not change it. Why would they change it if it suits them (not to mention they are German so it naturally comes to play with Germans, nothing wrong with that). If they vote on it then you can be sure that there is no real balancing going on. Democracy fails when you try to balance a game that has more factors than the US has fat kids.


They play everything ranked, unlike yourself.
7 Apr 2021, 12:53 PM
#57
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 918

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Apr 2021, 12:46 PMKoRneY


They play everything ranked, unlike yourself.


http://www.companyofheroes.com/leaderboards#profile/steam/76561198046481660/standings last 40+ games, WGerman and Wermacht mostly. I didn't say Sturm doesn't play everything. I stated that they used to play everything and now mostly play axis. Nothing wrong with that but don't talk balance if last couple of patches you play one side.

And yeah, I only play USF competitive and do not go spreading any sort of gospel about OKW balance or OST balance nor do I interest myself in any sort of balancing and have not preached any sort of balancing on these forums. I have stated my opinions and only used data provided (assumed it's not false) to back up some claims. A couple of games I play here and there I state what I feel like is happening and the current state.

You don't have to state the obvious. I only play USF competitively and OKW in leisure. Nothing new.

Besides. The argument "Get a team and play arranged" does not really hold water. I do not want to play with arranged teams where I need to tailor my playing time to other people. I don't really play that much to arrange team games. So yeah, random teams is the way to go for me and I don't really have a bad experience playing random.
Sure, sometimes all of you will pick a commander and will lack something key to win the game. You lose some you win some. 2 games ago a guy was afk and then left. Last game 2 of my teammates lost a 2v1 over one VP, nothing wrong with that either. They were probably not as skilled or maybe had bad luck or w/e. Don't care. But I won't buy a 2000$ computer or severely go out of my way to play AT just because the majority in the BT is biased (save for TRope, Aera and maybe few others)
7 Apr 2021, 12:58 PM
#58
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 221

About why axis have higher win rate in 4vs4! :
Offtopic you guys saw the wins from allies in 1vs1? 3 time 52 % allies faction. poor wehrmacht 44 % lol.
Brits with the highest. But on the other side you don't see brits in 1vs1 Cups, because people know how to counter it.


Have you seen first two weeks of the march?
https://coh2stats.com/stats/week/1615161600/1v1/wermacht
https://coh2stats.com/stats/week/1615766400/1v1/wermacht

UkF play count is so low that it jumps around 42~52%.

I wonder why there is sooo low playing count. MUST be because its DLC faction right?

Yeah... UKF was not seen very much on ML either because pros just don't like to play with it.

"UKF will always be underpicked in pro play unless they are massively overpowered."
"Each pro player has a distinct playstyle and preference. Even when UKF was broken, some of them just played USF/SU."
by one of the moder

Totally explains 9% of the pick rate & 23% of win rate in last ML.
7 Apr 2021, 12:59 PM
#59
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2203 | Subs: 2



http://www.companyofheroes.com/leaderboards#profile/steam/76561198046481660/standings last 40+ games, WGerman and Wermacht mostly. I didn't say Sturm doesn't play everything. I stated that they used to play everything and now mostly play axis. Nothing wrong with that but don't talk balance if last couple of patches you play one side.

Complete lie. You can clearly see him playing as Allies regularly. Your "mostly Axis" claim is just made up.



And yeah, I only play USF competitive and do not go spreading any sort of gospel about OKW balance or OST balance nor do I interest myself in any sort of balancing and have not preached any sort of balancing on these forums. I have stated my opinions and only used data provided (assumed it's not false) to back up some claims. A couple of games I play here and there I state what I feel like is happening and the current state.

You don't have to state the obvious. I only play USF competitively and OKW in leisure. Nothing new.

You regularly post you opinion about balancing ideas. How is that not being interested in balance?
7 Apr 2021, 12:59 PM
#60
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5319 | Subs: 28



http://www.companyofheroes.com/leaderboards#profile/steam/76561198046481660/standings last 40+ games, WGerman and Wermacht mostly. I didn't say Sturm doesn't play everything. I stated that they used to play everything and now mostly play axis. Nothing wrong with that but don't talk balance if last couple of patches you play one side.

And yeah, I only play USF competitive and do not go spreading any sort of gospel about OKW balance or OST balance nor do I interest myself in any sort of balancing and have not preached any sort of balancing on these forums. I have stated my opinions and only used data provided (assumed it's not false) to back up some claims. A couple of games I play here and there I state what I feel like is happening and the current state.

You don't have to state the obvious. I only play USF competitively and OKW in leisure. Nothing new.


last 40+ games axis?`How can you see that? only the last 10-15 games in history are acutall. the other 10-15 are from 2-3 years ago btw...
--> again lie

Yeah you maybe remeber the time where allies in 4vs4 were broken as shit? 1919 spam and brits etc. There i agree we played more axis as i explained you already.


Now mainly axis? I stopped playing coh2 since 2 months because of RL and Job. Just for few days ago i played 3-4 games with old friends.
--> again lie

About data, thats why i explained you in the 3 points, which are not shown in the stats.
Also its about week to weeks. When i play active again with my friends, probably allies will be higher winrate then again^^.

I just can agree that random allies are most of the worser than axis randoms and that atm something is wrong in matchmaking! And that is what the stats from his side shows.
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