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Commander Update Beta 2021 - Soviet Feedback

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21 May 2021, 18:06 PM
#701
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

Can't find who posted something about the 76mm having worse hull and coaxial MGs than all the other Shermans, but thanks for pointing it out. We'll likely change them to the M4A3 versions in light of the main gun nerf.
21 May 2021, 18:45 PM
#702
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1

Can't find who posted something about the 76mm having worse hull and coaxial MGs than all the other Shermans, but thanks for pointing it out. We'll likely change them to the M4A3 versions in light of the main gun nerf.

That would be MMX
22 May 2021, 02:13 AM
#703
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 712

About Ost relief infantry and Soviet rapid Conscription,now in Test mod is little useful than before,but maybe could more controllable,change “lost ”X infantry to call-in new infantry squad to “reinforced” X infantry to call-in new squad
22 May 2021, 23:55 PM
#704
avatar of JPA32

Posts: 178

So I don't think anyone has brought this up yet, but on the topic of SVT Cons, they still aren't okay with the known existing changes to the doctrine. Increasing their cooldown time and CP cost by 1 does nothing to change the reason they are broken.

SVT Cons out-perform 7-Man Cons in every conceivable way in combat. Doesn't matter in the open, in Green Cover, Yellow Cover, short fights, prolonged fights, no vet, full vet. Doesn't matter. Not only this but SVT Cons come significantly earlier, and are only 10 Muni more to upgrade. The minor benefits that 7 Man Cons provide in relation to SVT Cons isn't even close to being worthwhile.

The fact is that SVT Cons just step on the toes of both 7 Man Con upgrade (Both of them significantly increase the combat effectiveness of Cons yet SVt's are better and faster) and Penals (Cons are just cheaper slightly weaker Penals with better utility)

The SVT's need to fulfill some sort of role to be of use besides just being a giant damage buff to the Con squad at all ranges. Maybe they could act like Panzerfussiliers G43's and have excellent moving accuracy to enable a more mobile con squad, maybe they could give Cons a grenade, maybe they could synergize with Airbourne Guards (Give Airbourne Guards an ability like "Heroic Charge" that can target SVT Cons or PPSH Penals to give them some buff) (Or alternatively whenever you call in the Airbourne Guard strafe, maybe all SVT Cons you own gain a combat buff for "x" seconds)

Literally anything that isn't just "They do more damage now."
23 May 2021, 00:32 AM
#705
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 637

SVT Cons are fine. Keep in mind that the commander doesn't have a heavy tank or anything amazing late game. They do a good job at countering blobs as conscripts become useful instead of shooting wet noodles at the enemy.
23 May 2021, 00:38 AM
#706
avatar of JPA32

Posts: 178

SVT Cons are fine. Keep in mind that the commander doesn't have a heavy tank or anything amazing late game. They do a good job at countering blobs as conscripts become useful instead of shooting wet noodles at the enemy.


Zis Guns + T-34 Ram into IL-2 Rocket run gg, plus you have DsHK's in this doctrine which cover the massive hole that is the existence of the Maxim.

Also you vastly underestimate 7 Man Cons. They're absolutely fantastic and are near untouchable in Green Cover with their firerate buff. So it's telling when you can get an even better stronger well-rounded version of them 6-7 minutes earlier.
23 May 2021, 02:33 AM
#707
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 598


--Tank Hunter Partisans replaced with Commissar...again why?? the unit is fun. its funny they nerf them in past then now since not many of us use them they want to remove it.. combine them or remove something else. having both would be cool dont remove partisans from any commanders thers only a few


I like it that a new commander has access to Commissar honestly.

--Soviet Shock Army Tactics--
ML-20 Howitzer replaced with T-34/85
IL-2 Sturmovik Attack replaced with 152mm Howitzer Strike
Conscript Assault Package

So stupid, this change. Soviet shock armies had shitton of SMGs. It was thematic commander now it's sweat commander. Yuck.
23 May 2021, 04:50 AM
#708
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

Can we plz get Resource drops from lens lease instead of the stupid zis truck which is shit.
26 May 2021, 11:57 AM
#709
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 511

I started playing soviets again to try out the new units and changes. I was wondering if the only way to get Penal PPSH is with the weapon drop? Has there been any thoughts on making the assault package include Penals just like the repair ability. And one last question, what is the damage difference between the assault guard with thompson vs the airbourne with ppsh?
26 May 2021, 13:33 PM
#710
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 598

I started playing soviets again to try out the new units and changes. I was wondering if the only way to get Penal PPSH is with the weapon drop? Has there been any thoughts on making the assault package include Penals just like the repair ability. And one last question, what is the damage difference between the assault guard with thompson vs the airbourne with ppsh?


I think that would be an interesting idea. I like to have a "conscript focus" loadout in which all the commanders include con repair, and 2 of the three have assault package. I don't think it would be that OP because A.) Penals would bleed more on the approach because they have no way to get close quickly (no oorah) B.) Much more expensive than cons. and C.) they have no snare/ antitank capabilities once upgraded with ppsh (PTRS patched out of PPSH penals long ago).

Infact, considering all these things, I would just use conscripts to supplement penals if I went for a penal build anyways lol.
Pip
26 May 2021, 13:40 PM
#711
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580



I think that would be an interesting idea. I like to have a "conscript focus" loadout in which all the commanders include con repair, and 2 of the three have assault package. I don't think it would be that OP because A.) Penals would bleed more on the approach because they have no way to get close quickly (no oorah) B.) Much more expensive than cons. and C.) they have no snare/ antitank capabilities once upgraded with ppsh (PTRS patched out of PPSH penals long ago).

Infact, considering all these things, I would just use conscripts to supplement penals if I went for a penal build anyways lol.


I've oft stated the opinion that Penals and Cons should both be tier 0 units that are universally affected by the same upgrades/techs, but offer a variation each on the "mainline infantry" role. A faction having two equally viable "mainline" options as standard would be an interesting factional niche.
26 May 2021, 14:07 PM
#712
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 598

jump backJump back to quoted post26 May 2021, 13:40 PMPip


I've oft stated the opinion that Penals and Cons should both be tier 0 units that are universally affected by the same upgrades/techs, but offer a variation each on the "mainline infantry" role. A faction having two equally viable "mainline" options as standard would be an interesting factional niche.


Realistically speaking I think it would take a bit of restructuring to work though. If you're saying that the techs affect both units, then besides mobilize reserves, which already do affect both, you must mean the molo/AT grenade package be expanded to penals as well. So are you saying then that satchels would be gated behind tech in this situation?

I think that would be kinda rough. As it is it's not feasible to build T1, T2, and scout car and get a T70 within the timing required to be the most effective & hold for a T34 and that's just assuming that you're only building penals and not supplementing with conscripts (therefore not needing molo/AT grenade tech). Penals already make up for lack of AT gun in tier 1 by having satchels which instantly destroy bunkers(which are otherwise countered by AT guns when unsupported).

At that point there would really be no point to go T1 even. You would only ever build it for the sniper lol.
Pip
26 May 2021, 14:29 PM
#713
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580



Realistically speaking I think it would take a bit of restructuring to work though. If you're saying that the techs affect both units, then besides mobilize reserves, which already do affect both, you must mean the molo/AT grenade package be expanded to penals as well. So are you saying then that satchels would be gated behind tech in this situation?

I think that would be kinda rough. As it is it's not feasible to build T1, T2, and scout car and get a T70 within the timing required to be the most effective & hold for a T34 and that's just assuming that you're only building penals and not supplementing with conscripts (therefore not needing molo/AT grenade tech). Penals already make up for lack of AT gun in tier 1 by having satchels which instantly destroy bunkers(which are otherwise countered by AT guns when unsupported).

At that point there would really be no point to go T1 even. You would only ever build it for the sniper lol.


Ideally; yes. In such a rework penals would have some form of grenade (HE, or merely a molotov dependent on whether an HE grenade for SOV as standard causes balance issues) and a reworked satchel (Reduced damage, increased range). Unfortunately for it to "work" properly there would likely be too many changes for it to be close to viable to implement at this point, especially as SOV are approaching a point where they're fairly well balanced.

And yes, unfortunately it would take some restructuring of techs/structures, Ideally this would coincide with a linearisation of soviet tech, in order to make it pretty much the same as OST tech. (the OST tech structure is the most balanced by virtue of being linear).
26 May 2021, 15:12 PM
#714
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 511



I think that would be an interesting idea. I like to have a "conscript focus" loadout in which all the commanders include con repair, and 2 of the three have assault package. I don't think it would be that OP because A.) Penals would bleed more on the approach because they have no way to get close quickly (no oorah) B.) Much more expensive than cons. and C.) they have no snare/ antitank capabilities once upgraded with ppsh (PTRS patched out of PPSH penals long ago).

Infact, considering all these things, I would just use conscripts to supplement penals if I went for a penal build anyways lol.


I was thinking the same thing, Penals would be powerful but expensive in cost and reinforce however with certain commanders it would give 2 possible openings. With Guards Rifle Combined, I was thinking hard hitting slow early game that is helped with Guards Rifle to fight back against LV. An M5 could be used to keep up mid game pressure while stalling for the KV1. The other commander was Soviet Reserve, it would work similar to Airborne for USF where both tech are "covered". The main draw back would be how MP intensive it would be around mid game. However you get mg and AT along with PPSH Penals.
26 May 2021, 15:17 PM
#715
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 511

Also are PPSh supposed to be free for Airbourne Guards? I havent played soviets in a while but was trying to figure out when/why to choose SVT/PPSH instead of getting it free on Airbourne(SMG) and wait for mobile reserves.
28 May 2021, 11:30 AM
#716
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 563

jump backJump back to quoted post23 May 2021, 00:38 AMJPA32


Zis Guns + T-34 Ram into IL-2 Rocket run gg, plus you have DsHK's in this doctrine which cover the massive hole that is the existence of the Maxim.

Also you vastly underestimate 7 Man Cons. They're absolutely fantastic and are near untouchable in Green Cover with their firerate buff. So it's telling when you can get an even better stronger well-rounded version of them 6-7 minutes earlier.


Il 2 strafe and ram have both been hammered to the point of inefficency that it does most certainly not hold water well anymore.
28 May 2021, 15:29 PM
#717
avatar of JPA32

Posts: 178



Il 2 strafe and ram have both been hammered to the point of inefficency that it does most certainly not hold water well anymore.


Just because something got nerfed doesn't mean it's still not powerful (Zis Barrage). Go into cheat commands mod, spawn a T-34, a P4, and even just 1 Zis Gun in range of the ram. Spawn the Bam, hit the Ram, and the P4 turns into Jam.

That's with just 1 Zis when you really should have 2. Ram does 25% damage + if the T34 hits a shot that pens that's another 25%. Zis Gun does 25% (50% if you've got 2). IL2 Rocket Run does 50%. In most situations you have 3-5 chances to land a single penetrating shot on a medium between the Ram and Rocket Run doing 75% of it's life guaranteed. Literally if your T-34 pens it's first shot you can ram and bam with no support at all and come out positive. The 75% damage burst from Ram and Bam means that if the Wher/OKW player takes a single hit they can't afford to stay in lest they die to a wombo combo they can't stop which is quite powerful.

Even against heavier tanks, having 2 T-34's in combination with the ability to Ram and Bam is a trade up almost all of the time since with some luck your Rocket Run can hit twice on a Panther, and 3 Times on a King Tiger while the immobilization effect prevents the Panther/KT from moving out of range of the At Gun before it gets another shot off, and it's rear armor away from your other T-34 if you decide to swing around the side for Rear Armor shots.

All this for nearly half the price of Anti-Tank Overwatch (125 vs 200) and not even mentioning the fact that Ram can still engine crit which even without the rocket run is usually going to be a dead tank.

This all being said, I don't have a problem with IL2 Rocket Run by itself. Powerful abilities should exist and there is obvious counterplay (Don't get rammed lmao). The entire problem with this doctrine is SVT Cons who are still entirely too fast for the value they provide at 2cp and I hope the balance team has done more to them in their secret hidden update.
28 May 2021, 17:58 PM
#718
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Problem with the il-2 rocket strafe is the nerf only made it unreliable. There's a chance it will be every bit as powerful as it is in live, and also a chance it'll be like slapping a wet noodle across an Abrams because what we need more of is skill shots that may do nothing at all even if pulled off perfectly...
28 May 2021, 18:05 PM
#719
avatar of lovendead

Posts: 28

Problem with the il-2 rocket strafe is the nerf only made it unreliable. There's a chance it will be every bit as powerful as it is in live, and also a chance it'll be like slapping a wet noodle across an Abrams because what we need more of is skill shots that may do nothing at all even if pulled off perfectly...


The main problem is not IL-2 Roc Strafe, but conscripts that being to efficient

I think it too, it is so hard againts Sov with conscripts build rather than penal build
28 May 2021, 18:30 PM
#720
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

Problem with the il-2 rocket strafe is the nerf only made it unreliable. There's a chance it will be every bit as powerful as it is in live, and also a chance it'll be like slapping a wet noodle across an Abrams because what we need more of is skill shots that may do nothing at all even if pulled off perfectly...


What exactly do you base these chances on? Because it will still have enough pen to reliably pen the rear armor of anything but the heaviest of vehicles (80 pen vs 55-90 rear armor for medium vehicles, 110 for SHTDs and 140-150 for the Tigers), and even if a rocket doesn't pen it still deals a significant amount of deflection damage. As long as most rockets hit, there is no chance to deal a low amount of damage. There will be nothing unreliable about it except for missing rockets, but that didn't change compared to before. Rockets that hit will still deal a reliable amount of damage, just a bit less than before on average. Only its max damage potential is being toned down by 10-20%, which is still like 50-75% of a heavy's health, down from 75-90%.

In tests it still had a max damage potential of around 50-60% or more damage to an Elefant (rear / front) in 9/10 cases. Which part of this picture screams low damage or unreliability to you?
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