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Commander Update Beta 2021 - Soviet Feedback

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14 Apr 2021, 16:13 PM
#321
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 131

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 10:12 AMChukiki
And kv2 is total garbage, I want this to be changed to mark vehicle.
Kv1 needs straight out buffs
Soviet industry is too weak against infantry blobs. The kv1 and kv2 are not blob killers but prey to blobs.


Sorry what? If the KV2 isn't a bolb killer what is? Also I think you mean the KV8.
14 Apr 2021, 17:06 PM
#322
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Just wanted to bring up the topic of AT overwatch. Not about the strength/balance, but rather the design.

As Blackdream said in another thread, this is ability shoots pinpoint accurately on every visible tank.
I am not arguing for realism in CoH2, but some authenticity should be in order. Out of all abilities, this is one of the worst offenders. It just doesn't make any sense. This ability feels like a guided laser shooting from space. And if you are visible for longer, it comes down at a huge ROF. And just by driving all of them miss as well which looks stupid as hell.
Is there a possibility to make it an area-bound AT artillery that forces vehicles to move? Bigger explosions, but with scatter.

Or targeted at a specific vehicle, which will then be bombarded with AT shells for as long as it is visible.

Or random area bombardment with an AT strafing plane.


Just something that makes a bit more "sense". Balance wise I think it is mostly fine, although it performs VERY good in team games because there are always enemy vehicles visible.


Gonna point out that this is not the only offmap that works in the same way (pin point accurate). The difference is only the speed at which the shells arrive (and obviously the type of target or triggers)
14 Apr 2021, 17:08 PM
#323
avatar of GoforGiantsV3

Posts: 82

203mm DMG nerfed to 300 and shoots 3 shells?
Seems not that bad. But I hope COH2 have some Lottery funny point preserved. The 203mm B-4's 640dmg and fire just a single shot is that.

Being a Lottery. Meme-Cannon can attract more users to counterattack tactics.
You know KV-1 will get nerfed. So 203mm Preserves its color will be good.
14 Apr 2021, 17:53 PM
#324
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2743 | Subs: 2



Gonna point out that this is not the only offmap that works in the same way (pin point accurate). The difference is only the speed at which the shells arrive (and obviously the type of target or triggers)

For offmaps lile railway arty I can have this suspension of disbelief. The shell could just hit there. But shells following moving targets that can also fire super quickly is another level of nonsense.
14 Apr 2021, 18:02 PM
#325
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


For offmaps lile railway arty I can have this suspension of disbelief. The shell could just hit there. But shells following moving targets that can also fire super quickly is another level of nonsense.


As i said, speed on delivery changes but we have plenty of pinpoint accurate offmaps which follows units.

Sector artillery, Close the pocket, artillery cover, perimeter Overwatch (although those are onmap), Zeroing Arty.
14 Apr 2021, 18:23 PM
#326
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 905

As Blackdream said in another thread, this is ability shoots pinpoint accurately on every visible tank.


If your tank isn't snared and you move it, it shouldn't be much of a problem. A lot of shells will hit where you were a second ago. In addition AT overwatch is only at two medicore commanders, so its really not a problem.

I do think the pinpoint abilities which hit infantry are a lot more annoying since infantry is to slow to evade. It is always retreating or getting wiped.
14 Apr 2021, 19:46 PM
#327
14 Apr 2021, 21:02 PM
#328
avatar of IpKaiFung
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1677 | Subs: 2

Great video regarding the B-4



As it stands, the unit has lost a lot of its fun factor in the current version.
14 Apr 2021, 21:36 PM
#329
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

The B-4 is being changed from an AT gun/shock weapon to a howitzer. Thr problem is they don't want it to clone the ML/20, which is now a serviceable howitzer thanks to CB removal and decreased anti howi abilities. The B-4 doesnt have a design space right now, especially with the bugginess of Direct Fire (just make the shell seeking).

It can go a few ways:
1. Precision backbreaker with low scatter rounds. Still useful for softening tanks. Easiest change, as just alter FoW multi from 1.75 to 1.25 and cut Max Scatter angle and distance by 10-20%. This is what the Priest and Sexton are. There is an unused B-4 profile in the tools that does this.

2. ML/20 clone. Faster time between shell is required. But why.

3. Win condition. Decrease bombard cd dramatically. It doesnt hit hard, or hit fast but the shells keep coming. Think old Pak Howi. This would be rage inducing.

Or
4: make it a proper AT gun without the lottery. Let direct fire seek like a tank shell and for all B-4 hits either increase damage or have the B-4 apply some kind of crit, like stun or tread break. This would go well with a small scatter reduction (if its supposed to hit mediums) and would not need multiple stupid long reload shells. Cut barrage cd to maintain current dps vs structures, its pretty crappy already. I can provide specifics if mod team wants them, i still have my spreadsheet.

Its current iffy damage with worst in class dps and miserable scatter just isnt functional.

Especially with lost AOE damage. The balance team keeps cutting the lethality of every explosive they touch without tweaking similar ones to maintain bleed parity. If it aint dead it aint bled.

On a historical note, B4's shot 100kg frag shells with 15kg HE. Thats double the weight and triple the HE of the ML/20 frag round. The 150kg concrete piercing rounds were behemoths.
14 Apr 2021, 22:04 PM
#330
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

Great video regarding the B-4



As it stands, the unit has lost a lot of its fun factor in the current version.

I do agree with the sentiment.

The changes make it completely lose relevance and identity to the point, where its just ML-20, but REALLY bad and not rewarding at all when you actually score a hit now.
14 Apr 2021, 22:09 PM
#331
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2743 | Subs: 2



As i said, speed on delivery changes but we have plenty of pinpoint accurate offmaps which follows units.

Sector artillery, Close the pocket, artillery cover, perimeter Overwatch (although those are onmap), Zeroing Arty.

You're right, I forgot that those are tracking as well.
I think my biggest issue is with the presentation. AT overwatch shoots very frequently and always from directly on top of the tank. For the arty abilities it at least feels like they had some spread, although I am not sure if this is indeed the case. Some of those also completly cover the whole battlefield, wlwhich feels fine for me as well.


If your tank isn't snared and you move it, it shouldn't be much of a problem. A lot of shells will hit where you were a second ago. In addition AT overwatch is only at two medicore commanders, so its really not a problem.

I do think the pinpoint abilities which hit infantry are a lot more annoying since infantry is to slow to evade. It is always retreating or getting wiped.


I have no big issue with this ability balance wise. It is just the presentation. However this is a real first world problem, I can understand everyone saying to not fix what is not broken
Pip
14 Apr 2021, 22:09 PM
#332
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

Great video regarding the B-4



As it stands, the unit has lost a lot of its fun factor in the current version.


It was/is only fun for the player using it, though. It's the very antithesis of fun for your opponent, so I'm glad it's getting changes. It seemingly needs some /more/ changes, though.
14 Apr 2021, 22:12 PM
#333
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 22:09 PMPip


It was/is only fun for the player using it, though. It's the very antithesis of fun for your opponent, so I'm glad it's getting changes. It seemingly needs some /more/ changes, though.

Same could be said about Sturmtiger, but that didn't stopped it from getting buffs after buffs all the damn time since range nerf.
Pip
14 Apr 2021, 22:43 PM
#334
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 22:12 PMKatitof

Same could be said about Sturmtiger, but that didn't stopped it from getting buffs after buffs all the damn time since range nerf.


That'll be the Sturmtiger that you can see coming, and doesn't oneshot medium tanks, I suppose? Or is there a different one that can fire at any practically point on the map with an obscenely random spread, and obliterate medium vehicles in a single shell?

I'm not sure what would give you the impression that I (or anyone else, for that matter) considers the Sturmtiger or AVRE well designed units, though. I'm fairly sure I've made clear before that oneshot cannons aren't fun design, so I fail to see why you're bringing it up , especially given the fact the AVRE/Sturmtiger aren't really the same as the B4.
14 Apr 2021, 23:06 PM
#335
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 586 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 10:12 AMChukiki
I muted katukov.
Industry got buffs, thats obivous.
But still I dont like recon. I prefer spy net.
So Soviet industry would be better wiht SPy net.
And kv2 is total garbage, I want this to be changed to mark vehicle.

Kv1 needs straight out buffs
\
Soviet industry is too weak against infantry blobs. The kv1 and kv2 are not blob killers but prey to blobs.

"KV-1 needs buffs" "KV-2 is total garbage"

please never talk about balance issues.

14 Apr 2021, 23:24 PM
#336
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 586 | Subs: 1


I think you answered your own question in that it was to easily countered. Essentially you could maybe use the air drop 1 time and once the enemy got any AA out it became useless. The ZiS truck still let's you rush out armor if you can put in on a fuel point. And the repair station just completely outclassed the infantry repair stuff so literally anything is an improvement in that slot.



Both changes are a straight buff.

I'd not call them a straight buff, you have to spend manpower, which is not a cheap resource in the early game as SOV.


Maybe i am just stupid and I don't appreciate the strength of these things because of how dynamic 1v1 captures can go
14 Apr 2021, 23:36 PM
#337
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 131

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 23:24 PMKatukov


I'd not call them a straight buff, you have to spend manpower, which is not a cheap resource in the early game as SOV.


Maybe i am just stupid and I don't appreciate the strength of these things because of how dynamic 1v1 captures can go

The commander is for sure a more team game faction since it's mostly trying to just hold the line until it can rush out the heavy tanks it has. The repair stations are just insanely strong at helping you and your allies keep your tanks healthy. Early on you won't really need a repair station and in team games it's easier to get a ZiS truck out and put it on a fuel point without as much worry for dying (the Opel Blitz in the Ostheer is the same thing and that's usually how it is used). The recon is a nice in general ability to help allies spot with artillery which is a nice little effect even though I do have to say it's not the most thematic ability.
15 Apr 2021, 00:34 AM
#338
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 131

Here's a possible change to the B4.
-Give it a single round HE shot with a large blast radius that is great against infantry and team weapons but only decent damage to armor (more than a ML20 but not to much more).
-Give it a bunker buster shot that has a much smaller blast radius but deals much more damage to what it hits (It wouldn't one shot enemy medium tanks but it could deal like 85% of the health on a direct hit).
-It retains the direct fire ability which would be balanced as needed
-At vet 1 in unlocks a 3 round HE barrage that uses lower power rounds but fires at a faster rate then the current test version.

So historically the B4 had 2 primary types of ammunition with either HE rounds or a Bunker Buster rounds. This could help be the way to improve the B4 in game with more flexibility and keeping some unique aspects of the B4 intact. The bunker buster round would be a precision shot that allows people to still meme with this incredibly devastating round but they would need to aim it well. The HE round and Barrage would be a more universal round but would help this unit be useful beyond that meme status.
15 Apr 2021, 01:01 AM
#339
avatar of Chukiki

Posts: 112

SU85 needs super buffs. Range of SIght nerf reverted. Mobility boosts, tracking etc.

The kv1 proposed nerfs 16 pop and defence nerf is insanity.
15 Apr 2021, 01:09 AM
#340
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 592

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2021, 01:01 AMChukiki
SU85 needs super buffs. Range of SIght nerf reverted. Mobility boosts, tracking etc.

The kv1 proposed nerfs 16 pop and defence nerf is insanity.

su85 needs that reverted forsure. and the su85 needs rotation back since all the nerfs in the past. it has no turret so it should be able to turn better.

its never small nerfs/buffs its always over buffs or over nerfs
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