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Commander Update Beta 2021 - OKW Feedback

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2 Apr 2021, 19:36 PM
#81
avatar of Wittmann39

Posts: 57


It has a turret.
UC does not.
221/3 cost also doesn't reflect its combat capability, but utility it provides.
It also isn't meant to fight any vehicles at all, but infantry.


Ok, what is the utility of 221? It costs more and falls behind the 5-fuel UC in every department. The utility part comes from the 223 upgrade. At least, one can offer it the possibility of 222 upgrade. This way, OKW player can choose between fighting performance and utility. 221 itself is not an effective unit if Vickers UC is on the field.
2 Apr 2021, 19:47 PM
#82
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



Ok, what is the utility of 221? It costs more and falls behind the 5-fuel UC in every department. The utility part comes from the 223 upgrade. At least, one can offer it the possibility of 222 upgrade. This way, OKW player can choose between fighting performance and utility. 221 itself is not an effective unit if Vickers UC is on the field.

221 is not supposed to be effective combat unit against vehicles.
Its like complaining that medium tanks are bad against tank destroyers even if tank destroyers are cheaper.
Its AI vehicle and it will never be good against vehicles, especially upgraded ones oriented for frontline combat.
Pip
2 Apr 2021, 20:16 PM
#83
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580


221 is not supposed to be effective combat unit against vehicles.
Its like complaining that medium tanks are bad against tank destroyers even if tank destroyers are cheaper.
Its AI vehicle and it will never be good against vehicles, especially upgraded ones oriented for frontline combat.


Is the UC supposed to be combat-effective against Vehicles?
2 Apr 2021, 20:17 PM
#84
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Apr 2021, 20:16 PMPip


Is the UC supposed to be combat-effective against Vehicles?

That depends.
Against 222? Not really.
Against 221 or kubel? Most certainly yes, even more so upgraded.
Pip
2 Apr 2021, 20:27 PM
#85
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580


That depends.
Against 222? Not really.
Against 221 or kubel? Most certainly yes, even more so upgraded.


The kubel, sure, but the 221?

The 221 is doctrinal, comes later than the UC, and costs thrice the fuel (Six times, if we're talking about the 223, though the 223 does beat a Vickers UC). Why /should/ the UC win? Just the lack of a turret?
2 Apr 2021, 20:31 PM
#86
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Apr 2021, 20:27 PMPip


The kubel, sure, but the 221?

The 221 is doctrinal, comes later than the UC, and costs thrice the fuel (Six times, if we're talking about the 223, though the 223 does beat a Vickers UC). Why /should/ the UC win? Just the lack of a turret?

And it still is not meant to win against more heavily armored vehicle that outguns it easily and does not have turret in frontal slugfest and just like in the day it was implemented, there is still nothing wrong with it today.
UC is soft counter to 221, not the other way around, unless you get a flank.
Pip
2 Apr 2021, 20:41 PM
#87
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580


And it still is not meant to win against more heavily armored vehicle that outguns it easily and does not have turret in frontal slugfest and just like in the day it was implemented, there is still nothing wrong with it today.
UC is soft counter to 221, not the other way around, unless you get a flank.


That isnt an explanation of why this is the case, merely a statement that it is the case.

Why do UKF need their (Unupgraded, by the way. A non-vickers UC beats a 221) UC to be a soft counter to the 221, despite its lower cost and quicker timing? I'm not sure of the justification behind it.
2 Apr 2021, 20:46 PM
#88
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Apr 2021, 20:41 PMPip


That isnt an explanation of why this is the case, merely a statement that it is the case.

Why do UKF need their (Unupgraded, by the way. A non-vickers UC beats a 221) UC to be a soft counter to the 221, despite its lower cost and quicker timing? I'm not sure of the justification behind it.

It is the case, because modders balanced it like that.
It is the case, because if you want to kill a vehicle, there already is a unit in T0 for that.
It is the case, because combat is NOT units primary role.
It is the case, because it is not meant to go against any vehicle unless it gets a jump from favorable position.
I don't know what you struggle with here so much.
Its base armor was increased, because it didn't do good enough job against its intended target-infantry and that's it.

I don't know how to tell you its not supposed to fight vehicles in a way that you would understand if you don't get it directly.
2 Apr 2021, 22:12 PM
#89
avatar of SquishyMuffin

Posts: 24

Radio Silence: "with the ability now giving a warning to all players when the ability activates."

Reading that I just kinda of laughed at the antinomy. Like really? I preferred it when the ability was sort of forgotten about but did what it was supposed to do and caught players off guard. Do not give it a tell please, for uniqueness’ sake. Remove all the unnecessary changes since it became an ability for sprint rather than stealth, if need be.
2 Apr 2021, 22:30 PM
#90
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Command Panther
With the removal of Artillery Flares from the Special Operations Commander, the Command Panther is receiving a flare ability to somewhat compensate for its loss.

Kinda defeats the point a bit, but Brits still have their invincible eye-in-the-sky too, so whateves.


Le.FH 105mm
Counter Barrage veterancy 1 ability replaced with Overwatch Fragmentation Airburst shells
Airburst shells have a larger damage radius, but less direct damage and low penetration; no cost. 60 second duration on target zone

Good change, should apply to the Ostheer LeFH as well.


Panzerfusiliers
To improve their effectiveness in the early-game, without making them stronger in the mid-late game or adjusting their cost, Panzerfusiliers are having their rifles adjusted. The following changes will make their starting rifles almost on-par with Volksgrenadier rifles at shorter ranges while their total DPS should still be the same, even with G43 Rifles.

I have no problem with this change. I think the main issue with Panzerfusilier G43 and Volksgrenadier StG is that players assume the automatic rifle is superior to the scoped rifle at ranged combat, which is not true.


Special Operations
Artillery Flares replaced with Sturm Offizer

A good change that makes sense.


Other thoughts:
the Opel Blitz Ambulance should find it's way into Fortifications Doctrine somehow because OKW doesn't have a SdKfz 251 Half-Track to reinforce Pak 43 and LeFH emplacements.

Some say the Flakpanzer should be move to Luftwaffe Ground Forces, I agree on this in the condition that it is replaced by a StuG III Ausf. G in Scavenge Doctrine. The StuG III was the most common vehicle in the German army, and is a well rounded vehicle that is rarely out of place in a build.

Overall I have not much to say about OKW one way or the other. These are pretty good and sensible changes.
3 Apr 2021, 03:30 AM
#91
avatar of NorthWeapon
Donator 11

Posts: 588

To prevent multi-sturmtiger exploit, you have removed reload abandon from the sturmtiger thereby altering the balance of the unit for the purpose of preventing a rare exploit. The rare exploit is rare and the sturmtiger is not rare so altering a common unit to patch a rare exploit is counter productive. Now there are consequences of the sturmtiger being buffed as a side effect of exploit patching.

I also find it ironic that the changelog gave another reason for the reload abandon change when we all know it is because of the sturmtiger exploit.

This is going to be an endless struggle to find exploits and bandaid patch them by altering unit behavior.

This reminds me of spaghetti flow control code with weird intricate fragile complexities. It'll keep getting worse. Then you'll forget why you made that change and it'll break again. Soon you will have 15 different slight alterations you made to units to prevent something breaking and need to document it all.

What if we need to balance the Sturmtiger in the future by bringing back abandon, but we can't do that because then it will unleash the exploit again? Or worse what is we forget why we did it in the first place?

I think it does more harm than good. Kind of like the USF 100+ manpower exploit. Now because 100+ pop is penalized, players need to be careful not to accidentally go past 100 pop, which can easily happen. Now because you didn't pay attention to reinforcing your squads while ur Sherman was decrewed repairing, you have to suffer a manpower income penalty. This is precisely what I mean. Bandaid fixing exploits by changing the whole thing to fix some small rare behavior is doing more harm than good. More players accidentally hit 101 or 102 pop than players who intentionally abuse it to get 10 Jacksons.

I think a lot of these exploits should just be left alone as features not bugs. I bring this up because this is happening every patch.
3 Apr 2021, 03:48 AM
#92
avatar of NorthWeapon
Donator 11

Posts: 588

(Delete. I seriously got to stop accidentally posting, sorry mods)
3 Apr 2021, 08:34 AM
#93
avatar of Trizillion

Posts: 7



I think it does more harm than good. Kind of like the USF 100+ manpower exploit. Now because 100+ pop is penalized, players need to be careful not to accidentally go past 100 pop, which can easily happen. Now because you didn't pay attention to reinforcing your squads while ur Sherman was decrewed repairing, you have to suffer a manpower income penalty. This is precisely what I mean. Bandaid fixing exploits by changing the whole thing to fix some small rare behavior is doing more harm than good. More players accidentally hit 101 or 102 pop than players who intentionally abuse it to get 10 Jacksons..


The manpower income penalty is in effect above 110 pop, so you shouldn’t really reach that „by accident“…
3 Apr 2021, 09:20 AM
#94
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

I also find it ironic that the changelog gave another reason for the reload abandon change when we all know it is because of the sturmtiger exploit.

The exploit is secondary. Nobody really cares about that tbh. Primary reason of removing it is to make it more user friendly, as the notes state. Don't be paranoid.


Kind of like the USF 100+ manpower exploit. Now because 100+ pop is penalized, players need to be careful not to accidentally go past 100 pop, which can easily happen. Now because you didn't pay attention to reinforcing your squads while ur Sherman was decrewed repairing, you have to suffer a manpower income penalty. This is precisely what I mean. Bandaid fixing exploits by changing the whole thing to fix some small rare behavior is doing more harm than good. More players accidentally hit 101 or 102 pop than players who intentionally abuse it to get 10 Jacksons.

Eh, the penalty is only activated above 110 popcap. Some wiggle room was built into the mechanic. Going slightly over 100 by accident won't do anything.
3 Apr 2021, 09:22 AM
#95
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

Radio Silence: "with the ability now giving a warning to all players when the ability activates."

Reading that I just kinda of laughed at the antinomy. Like really? I preferred it when the ability was sort of forgotten about but did what it was supposed to do and caught players off guard. Do not give it a tell please, for uniqueness’ sake. Remove all the unnecessary changes since it became an ability for sprint rather than stealth, if need be.

Honestly, at this point they should turn it into a cool voiceline button for 0 munitions.
When you need to comeback/clutch a game you press a button and hear the lines "Bring them death, bring them destruction, show them no mercy"
More useful and less situational than what it ever was anyway:D:D:rofl:
3 Apr 2021, 09:32 AM
#96
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 421 | Subs: 2

You know, a while back people were trying to fit an Ostwind into Luftwaffe, but they couldn't decide if they liked the Flak emplacement more or the Ostwind more. I just had an idea to keep both:

Replace Valiant Assault with Ostwind and add combat bonuses to Airborne Assault, adjusting as necessary to mitigate the loss of Valiant Assault.

I gave no consideration towards balancing, but I think this brain fart idea might still be worth considering just because Ostwind really just thematically belongs in Luftwaffe.
3 Apr 2021, 09:41 AM
#97
avatar of Wittmann39

Posts: 57


That depends.
Against 222? Not really.
Against 221 or kubel? Most certainly yes, even more so upgraded.


Can you cite your source for the information? I would be glad to have the documentation.
3 Apr 2021, 09:52 AM
#98
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660


That depends.
Against 222? Not really.
Against 221 or kubel? Most certainly yes, even more so upgraded.

Yeah, 5 fuel transport carrier is supposed to counter alone 15 fuel mg car behind 150 mp and 15 fuel of teching

https://youtu.be/zjedLeVGcfE

MMX
3 Apr 2021, 10:30 AM
#99
avatar of MMX

Posts: 994 | Subs: 1

You know, a while back people were trying to fit an Ostwind into Luftwaffe, but they couldn't decide if they liked the Flak emplacement more or the Ostwind more. I just had an idea to keep both:

Replace Valiant Assault with Ostwind and add combat bonuses to Airborne Assault, adjusting as necessary to mitigate the loss of Valiant Assault.

I gave no consideration towards balancing, but I think this brain fart idea might still be worth considering just because Ostwind really just thematically belongs in Luftwaffe.


i like the idea, not just because i agree that the ostwind would fit nicely to luftwaffe, but even more so since it would make airborne assault a bit more useful.
3 Apr 2021, 10:51 AM
#100
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



Can you cite your source for the information? I would be glad to have the documentation.

Yeah, search yourself discussions and modders insight from the time it was implemented for the first time.
Literally all of "documentation" you are looking for is here on .org in previous threads.
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