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Commander Update Beta 2021 - OKW Feedback

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1 May 2021, 19:52 PM
#561
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3090 | Subs: 2



That looks pretty nice as proof of concept (not sure if I use that phrase right), but I guess it will will stay a dream.

It would require lots of tweaking to put it inline, like you said: incorporating a set up time so that it cant just roll up and instantly clear a VP (Thus some sort of planning is necessary).
And then should it be able to fire out of the base sector if It can't move while reloading? So that off-maps have a chance to counter it or is it enough to be unable to move while set-up and reloading.
Also: Should it have the reload trigger instantly or should you be allowed to decide when to reload etc.

Even though right now is the best time for such big changes with having a long running beta, I doubt there will be a chance and thus the ST will most likely stay a fringe unit.
Unless they manage to somehow make it work reliable (on differing terrain) while still being able to punish units not moved in a certain time frame.


It's why I'm putting this out there, the time to test these "concepts" as you said is now while there's still the preview going on, see what works and what doesn't, what can and should be tweaked, fixed and so on and so forth because again as we've already established, we don't know when the game's support will be entirely cut like with the older CoH.


It looks cool, but I'd never want to have that it CoH2.
We're just getting rid of an overly survivable Calliope that was "just" a bad medium in terms of defensive stats. We don't need a movable and precise B4 that is basically unkillable shooting across half the map.
Getting this to a spot that is even remotely "balanced" while still feeling like a Sturmtiger will be next to impossible. We already have Sextons and Priests and those are virtually unkillable despite them having a longer barrage and what is basically LV health and armor stats.


If we're going to use the same logic here as the flares where "oh we're removing it from this faction so that means we should remove/not give it to the others" then the B4, Railway arty and the 240mm barrage as well as concentrated barrage should either all be entirely reworked or removed from the game as well then.

As far as your opinion goes on not having the Sturmtiger like it's shown in the video, again, that's just entirely your opinion and you cannot prove that it'd be impossible to balance in any sort of way until it's actually tested and people give their feedback on it like I've already said. These wild guesses and assumptions going off of currently implemented badly designed and balanced units I don't believe have anything to do with with this right now taking into consideration that it'd be something entirely new and unique, not to mention different.


Of course there's something wrong with it. Sure it looks cool and all, but having a mobile heavily armored B4 would be totally and utterly imbalanced.



Lots of units are map or area dependant. You can't use an Elefant or ISU properly in city maps either. That's nothing unique to the Sturmtiger even though people like to pretend that it is for some reason.


I'm already entirely and well aware of your stance on the matter and the fact that this will not even be attempted to be tested.

However I would dare argue that your comparison of the proposed ST changes to the B4 are not well founded when considering the balance approach that's suggested of it being extremely expensive, limited to only 1 and slow as it currently is and having a long delay between firing, reloading and moving and if the Calliope exists which is to the Land-Mattress what the ST would be to the B4 then I don't see why not at least try out as an idea.

As far as your map dependence goes, you're comparing a unit not being able to shoot through a shotblocker and a unit not being able to shoot over a fence or up a small hill.

I also am not pretending anything, I saw tighttrop's video but I doubt it'd would still perform well in a uncontrolled environment when it's in live and not be a meme unit anymore. Countless years now both Relic and the community team have been trying to make something out of it without much success and both also refuse to take any other direction with it so it's whatever really, it's doomed to be borderline useless or extremely situationally useful.

Which reminds me, on which rework/fix of the unit's lift time are we now on, 3rd or 4th at this point?
1 May 2021, 21:26 PM
#562
avatar of miragefla
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

The Sturmtiger changes make it actually good, but I noticed that the vehicle would get abandoned if hit while reloading. I thought that was changed in the past so not sure if that is a bug or not.


That in the Beta preview? That has been removed.
1 May 2021, 22:00 PM
#563
avatar of Olfin

Posts: 167

I don't know why OKW don't have cahces until now, at least it could have munition cahces.
1 May 2021, 22:02 PM
#564
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17533 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post1 May 2021, 22:00 PMOlfin
I don't know why OKW don't have cahces until now, at least it could have munition cahces.

Check elite armor doctrine.
1 May 2021, 22:18 PM
#565
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1677

OKW is gonna need something else to stay competitive in high level, have you seen Olvadi's new 2v2 tourney? 2xwehr 24/7 Im already calling it, you will see.
1 May 2021, 22:18 PM
#566
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2380 | Subs: 2


If we're going to use the same logic here as the flares where "oh we're removing it from this faction so that means we should remove/not give it to the others" then the B4, Railway arty and the 240mm barrage as well as concentrated barrage should either all be entirely reworked or removed from the game as well then.

As far as your opinion goes on not having the Sturmtiger like it's shown in the video, again, that's just entirely your opinion and you cannot prove that it'd be impossible to balance in any sort of way until it's actually tested and people give their feedback on it like I've already said. These wild guesses and assumptions going off of currently implemented badly designed and balanced units I don't believe have anything to do with with this right now taking into consideration that it'd be something entirely new and unique, not to mention different.

Of course it is only an opinion of mine, just like you saying it can be balanced.
But the game has been moving away from quick wipes that you can do nothing about to a more consistent model of damage on basically every single unit.
We're having balance issues with units that already fit this design in general. Throwing a unit into this that basically does exactly the opposite of what the game has come to be over years now will be either impossible to balance or very, very hard to find a right spot at the very least. Especially considering differences between modes etc etc.
Regardless of what you and I personally think about this style of game in general, it should be fairly obvious that one trick ponies like the ST will be a tough nut to crack. And it is probably worth neither the effort/time that will be missing on working on other issues nor the risk of almost breaking a game mode for bringing a single unit back to life.
2 May 2021, 01:00 AM
#567
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 523


Check elite armor doctrine.


More expensive, fuel costing, easier to destroy thing you mean ?
Oh and also binds you to a doctrine.
2 May 2021, 03:21 AM
#568
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 331

jump backJump back to quoted post1 May 2021, 22:00 PMOlfin
I don't know why OKW don't have caches until now, at least it could have munition caches.


Also a dregs from a early OKW with resource income disadvantage. AFAIK salvage is there to compensate it. And I'd say it's not bad especially when you can get cache effects from WM in team game, and you don't go cache much in 1v1. Ability to destroy any abandoned weapon is very good(I feel like income resource is just side effect mostly)
2 May 2021, 03:50 AM
#569
avatar of Olfin

Posts: 167



Also a dregs from a early OKW with rresource income disadvantage. AFAIK salvage is their to compensate it. And I'd say it's not bad especially when you can get cache effects from WM in team game, and you don't go cache much in 1v1. Abillity to destroy any abandoned weapon is very good(I feel like income resource isjust sideeffect mostly)


Salvage don't give munitions so adding just munitions caches will make every one happy, and what if there is no WH?, simply there is no reason to not give OKW Caches.
2 May 2021, 05:43 AM
#570
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1523

maybe an unpopular though. but what about giving Obers -20% rec damage as well.
Maybe their vet could change from, -29% RA to -5%(maybe vet 1/2) RA and -20% RD(vet 3).
Seems kinda moronic to have shermans and T34/76's 1 shot an entire vetted Ober squad.
2 May 2021, 06:19 AM
#571
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3090 | Subs: 2


Of course it is only an opinion of mine, just like you saying it can be balanced.
But the game has been moving away from quick wipes that you can do nothing about to a more consistent model of damage on basically every single unit.
We're having balance issues with units that already fit this design in general. Throwing a unit into this that basically does exactly the opposite of what the game has come to be over years now will be either impossible to balance or very, very hard to find a right spot at the very least. Especially considering differences between modes etc etc.
Regardless of what you and I personally think about this style of game in general, it should be fairly obvious that one trick ponies like the ST will be a tough nut to crack. And it is probably worth neither the effort/time that will be missing on working on other issues nor the risk of almost breaking a game mode for bringing a single unit back to life.


And who exactly is talking about an infantry wiping machine from halfway across the map here exactly?

My idea is of a self-propelled artillery piece on the Axis side meant to act the same as the Sexton and Priest, soften up enemy defenses and strongpoints before an attack and so forth.

Plus if you guys are comparing it to the B4 so much then just turn it into a mobile one indeed like it is right now in the preview, a barrage would be 3 rockets with 30 seconds of reload time between shots meaning it'd stay in place for minutes at a time not being able to move which would be a perfect time for the enemy team to strike and take it out if it's not well protected enough.

And remove it's wipe potential, I personally don't have an issue with it not being able to wipe squads in 1 shot, it isn't doing it right now either so that's not the problem.

Again there's many ways to tackle an issue if you're creative enough, the question is on what you're willing to do exactly but it's obvious it's not going to happen with here with the ST.
2 May 2021, 08:41 AM
#572
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17533 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post2 May 2021, 01:00 AMJilet


More expensive, fuel costing, easier to destroy thing you mean ?
Oh and also binds you to a doctrine.

And all you'll ever get on that topic.
2 May 2021, 08:53 AM
#573
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

OKW is gonna need something else to stay competitive in high level, have you seen Olvadi's new 2v2 tourney? 2xwehr 24/7 Im already calling it, you will see.

It's hard to keep competitive a faction with the worst mainline infantry
2 May 2021, 09:00 AM
#574
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17533 | Subs: 8


It's hard to keep competitive a faction with the worst mainline infantry

Soviets say hi.

Also, no metric we have on our hands suggests OKW is non competitive or struggling anywhere and in absolute worst game mode with them having lowest win rates, 1v1, still means they are on the exact same level as other factions with sole exception of brits who are simply underpowered across all game modes.
2 May 2021, 09:08 AM
#575
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660


Soviets say hi.


Conscripts are one of the best most cost efficient mainlines in game
They are so good as stock that they have one of the best most cost efficient doctrinal upgrade in Airborne commander and it's overlooked because 7 men cons are THAT good. Now they'll receive a 4th ppsh and will shit on 260 mp 25 reinforce cost mp40 volks and 280 mp assgrens even harder than they do now with 3 ppsh.
Conscripts are the perfect example of overbuffing a unit and their vet 3 veterancy should absolutely be toned down ASAP.


Also, no metric we have on our hands suggests OKW is non competitive or struggling anywhere

There's the 0 win rate in a 1vs1 tournament where they were barely picked so far while soviets have been the go to faction, and their low 1vs1 top 200 automatch stats, but you knew all of this and none of this has stopped you from claiming soviets have bad infantry so I don't see the point in further adding to this discussion
2 May 2021, 09:28 AM
#576
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17533 | Subs: 8



Conscripts are one of the best most cost efficient mainlines in game

Only recently.

They were always a competitive faction, even across the years, where cons were utter garbage AND soviets didn't had powerful stock elite infantry to carry them in late game.
OKW does.

If you think you can relay in late game on volks exclusively, you're playing the faction wrong.
If you think volks should be stronger in late game to the point of being competitive against other faction mainlines, you're not understanding the faction at all.
2 May 2021, 09:33 AM
#577
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660


Only recently.

They were always a competitive factions.

Because they had penals, which were meta as we can see from 2019 and before replays of tournaments, and those were also a competitive mainline unit against Volks and Grenadiers alike, and they still are, but were rendered obsolete from conscripts buffs and Tier 2 zis meta
2 May 2021, 09:36 AM
#578
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660


If you think you can relay in late game on volks exclusively, you're playing the faction wrong.
If you think volks should be stronger in late game to the point of being competitive against other faction mainlines, you're not understanding the faction at all.

Volks are laughably expensive for being straight up worse than conscripts (up to their very utility, after vet 2 cons arrive) and that's a fact. They have the better snare, the better grenade, the better stock upgrade that grants them insane bonuses in performance and cost reduction, the better veterancy, the better doctrinal upgrades that are overshadowed by the better stock upgrade. I doubt that it's an unpopular opinion that Cons veterancy bonuses should be toned down and Volks veterancy bonuses should be replaced and improved.. But this is offtopic so again I don't see the point in going on here.
2 May 2021, 14:42 PM
#579
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 442


Volks are laughably expensive for being straight up worse than conscripts (up to their very utility, after vet 2 cons arrive) and that's a fact. They have the better snare, the better grenade, the better stock upgrade that grants them insane bonuses in performance and cost reduction, the better veterancy, the better doctrinal upgrades that are overshadowed by the better stock upgrade

Are you absolutely sure that volks have worse snare and nade ?

The upgrade you are referring to comes into play after t4 installment, volks can have theirs way earlier, they also beat cons without it. Basically without a flamer, significant number advantage or better cover/positioning it is very hard for stock cons to win this matchup. That is why SVTs are so popular - they eliminate early game weakness of cons.


I doubt that it's an unpopular opinion that Cons veterancy bonuses should be toned down


It was already toned down last patch, read the notes.
2 May 2021, 15:33 PM
#580
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17533 | Subs: 8


Are you absolutely sure that volks have worse snare and nade ?

He is, as per ususal, completely bullshitting.
Fast is better then AT nade(more pen) and lava nades are obviously better then lolotovs, vet2 makes lolotovs usable, but lava nades are still much better with range and throw animation being much faster.

The upgrade you are referring to comes into play after t4 installment, volks can have theirs way earlier, they also beat cons without it.

He loves to ignore that part completely while also pretending there are no obers who exist in OKW army specifically because volks were always designed to not scale with AI into late game and be supplemented by them.

Basically without a flamer, significant number advantage or better cover/positioning it is very hard for stock cons to win this matchup. That is why SVTs are so popular - they eliminate early game weakness of cons.

How would he know? He never played them.

It was already toned down last patch, read the notes.

How would he know? He never read them.
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