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Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

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25 May 2021, 02:09 AM
#801
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 298

Agreed. And this is exactly why I have been suggesting to the lead devs of the bug fixing team that the tooltips are updated so they make more sense

Edit: I have spoken to some of the devs and they said VSL Grens do still receive a ROF bonus

Also a lot of tooltips aren't updated likely because it is mostly veteran players playing the game at this point with thousands of hours played
27 May 2021, 05:23 AM
#802
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 298

There is a good chance I just do not know how to properly make use of this ability, but shouldn't the strafing loiter for Assault Support Doctrine at least... Do recon? I feel like you're not getting that much for what it does. Correct me if I am wrong though for I do not have that much experience with the commander but I also tend to avoid it because of my thoughts on this ability

I do understand though that Assault Support can get increased rate of munitions which maybe makes the loiter better simply because you can secure munitions and that would mean the ability can be used more often with the cargo truck

__

I can see why the cost of CAS was increased haha
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Jaeger Armour Doctrine still seems like a badass commander even with the Elefant spotting scope nerf. Now they have riegel + MOP. That is so much recon!

____*edit

Are you all sure VSL is bad now? I mean just because they changed it so it's not OP doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad. I just gave in when I heard so many of you say 'VSL is trash now compared to lmg42 and the staying power is gone' which is why I suggested the sandbags idea


My opinions on balance generally don't even matter anyway I am not a veteran pvp'er in 1v1 or 2v2
31 May 2021, 06:06 AM
#803
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 493

In case there will be a v4:

Festung Armor: Stuka Smoke instead of Panzer Tactician, so they get some recon.

Luftwaffe Supply: replace the MP40s with FG42s on the officer, but reduce squad size to 4 or 3. I mean come on, Fallschirmjaegers without FG42s? Heresy!

Storm: Stormtroopers instead of Jaeger Command Squad, because:
-JCS contribute with smoke and recon (flare) in Jaeger Infantry doctrine, however these are already available in Storm doctrine thanks to smoke drop, so they would be kinda redundant.
-The name Storm doctrine would suggest it is more of a breakthrough oriented commander, however it is rather defensive right now. JCS has ambush camo too, meaning that they can't move without being revealed. Stormtroopers on the other hand have assault camo which allows them move in stealthed, adding some offensive capability to the doctrine.
-They fit better with 'Storm' in their name
31 May 2021, 06:39 AM
#804
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 523

In case there will be a v4:
Luftwaffe Supply: replace the MP40s with FG42s on the officer, but reduce squad size to 4 or 3. I mean come on, Fallschirmjaegers without FG42s? Heresy!


I really liked that one actually. Limited to 1 squad with FG42s on OST.
1 Jun 2021, 19:34 PM
#805
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 298

jump backJump back to quoted post31 May 2021, 06:39 AMJilet


I really liked that one actually. Limited to 1 squad with FG42s on OST.


Interesting idea

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Nice that many of the tooltips have been updated. Glad to see this change finally, however, Fortified Armour Doctrine is still displaying incorrect information also German Infantry Doctrine is also still displaying incorrect information

_______________

I see that that live update has been rolled back. Guess I will go back to testing the beta for now. I noticed the late change to Jaeger Armour Doctrine. Interesting change. This makes me curious if it will also be updated into the beta version until they can apply the bug fixes to the framerate problems


Keep up the good work thanks ~
2 Jun 2021, 06:48 AM
#806
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 493

Grenadiers and Jaeger Command Squad:
-Self camouflage detection radius from 4 to 20

The hell? They added this in the last minute without warning. I understand the reasonale, but this leads to some annoying inconsistency among camo infantry reveal radius. I mean afaik it was the same for all camo infantry units... to this point.

If it's so OP, then either remove it from grenadiers so there is no inconsitency or make it exclusive with other upgrades (so no camo + lmg), perhaps bundle it with a single G43 and call it a day.

Also, why does it need to apply to the JCS too? I know they are based on grenadiers, but it's a single off elite squad. They also have G43s so the 5x reveal radius increase really does no good to them. At least lmg grens with camo can still ambush effectively.
2 Jun 2021, 07:01 AM
#807
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 523

Grenadiers and Jaeger Command Squad:
-Self camouflage detection radius from 4 to 20

The hell? They added this in the last minute without warning. I understand the reasonale, but this leads to some annoying inconsistency among camo infantry reveal radius. I mean afaik it was the same for all camo infantry units... to this point.

If it's so OP, then either remove it from grenadiers so there is no inconsitency or make it exclusive with other upgrades (so no camo + lmg), perhaps bundle it with a single G43 and call it a day.

Also, why does it need to apply to the JCS too? I know they are based on grenadiers, but it's a single off elite squad. They also have G43s so the 5x reveal radius increase really does no good to them. At least lmg grens with camo can still ambush effectively.


Big + . I was about to ask the same. Also, isn't 20 radius a massive distance to reveal ? I personally saw nobody complaining about camouflage either. This really came out of nowhere and it is a big nerf to the ambush camouflage.
2 Jun 2021, 08:46 AM
#808
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3122 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2021, 07:01 AMJilet
I personally saw nobody complaining about camouflage either. This really came out of nowhere and it is a big nerf to the ambush camouflage.


Jaeger Infantry has been the most dominant pick for 1v1 by far since the Osttruppen nerfs.

I believe it was also the most vetoed commander in ML. Behind the scenes there have been many complaints and worries about it, in particular about camouflaged fausts, so that aspect has been addressed.

2 Jun 2021, 09:16 AM
#809
avatar of JPA32

Posts: 178



Jaeger Infantry has been the most dominant pick for 1v1 by far since the Osttruppen nerfs.

I believe it was also the most vetoed commander in ML. Behind the scenes there have been many complaints and worries about it, in particular about camouflaged fausts, so that aspect has been addressed.



The problem isn't the camo or fausts. It's the sheer power of the doctrine as a whole and it's ability to answer every problem with incredibly effective solutions. Some gimmicky camo change is only going to be annoying and not actually dissuade people from picking this doctrine because it's still much stronger relative to it's peers. It's just a negative quality of life change, hell just remove the passive camo and make the JCS have to upgrade Ambush Camo if you really want to go that route.

There are several real ways you could hinder the power level of this doctrine. Look at instead replacing either Stuka CAS or Light Artillery Barrage with a weaker ability, look to nerf the actual ability of the Jaeger Command Squad, make the Jaeger Command Squad more expensive, make the Jaeger Command Squad come later, make it so ambush training doesn't allow all your infantry the ability sprint without the upgrade.

Any one of those would have made sense because it tackles a core part of the doctrine and attempts to bring it's power level in-line with other doctrines. From drastic to minor at least any of those would make sense instead of some half-baked niche camo detection change with no logical constant to any other camo in the game.
2 Jun 2021, 09:33 AM
#810
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 493



Jaeger Infantry has been the most dominant pick for 1v1 by far since the Osttruppen nerfs.

I believe it was also the most vetoed commander in ML. Behind the scenes there have been many complaints and worries about it, in particular about camouflaged fausts, so that aspect has been addressed.



I effing knew it, it's because some pros started to use it in 1v1... >:/

Again, either remove it from grens or perhaps make them lose their faust with the upgrade, but not this "all camo infantry units have a standard reveal range except for grens" inconsistency bs. And JCS should keep their normal, 4 range, considering you can have only 1 of them on the field.
2 Jun 2021, 09:50 AM
#811
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2460 | Subs: 2

Jaeger Infantry has been the most dominant pick for 1v1 by far since the Osttruppen nerfs.

I believe it was also the most vetoed commander in ML. Behind the scenes there have been many complaints and worries about it, in particular about camouflaged fausts, so that aspect has been addressed.

I also think JCS should stay as since they are limited to 1 squad only.
Has it been considered to just lower the Faust range on upgraded squads? Yes, it would hit Grens also in a normal battle. On the other hand the current change hits Grenadiers overall ambush performance outside of the snare, so there will always be collateral damage. But lowering the Faust range would feel more intuitive, since this would bring the Gren Faust closer to all other snares and therefore feel "normal" instead of creating yet another exception that works unlike everything else in the game.
2 Jun 2021, 10:01 AM
#812
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 493


I also think JCS should stay as since they are limited to 1 squad only.
Has it been considered to just lower the Faust range on upgraded squads? Yes, it would hit Grens also in a normal battle. On the other hand the current change hits Grenadiers overall ambush performance outside of the snare, so there will always be collateral damage. But lowering the Faust range would feel more intuitive, since this would bring the Gren Faust closer to all other snares and therefore feel "normal" instead of creating yet another exception that works unlike everything else in the game.


Does axis have an AT nade perhaps? Or a weaker AT satchel, that replacing the faust when the camo upgrade is done would be a cleaner solution imo.
2 Jun 2021, 17:23 PM
#813
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 523



Jaeger Infantry has been the most dominant pick for 1v1 by far since the Osttruppen nerfs.

I believe it was also the most vetoed commander in ML. Behind the scenes there have been many complaints and worries about it, in particular about camouflaged fausts, so that aspect has been addressed.



Yes I know it has been the meta but it is not meta for the camo most likely. It is the combination of light artillery barrage and stuka close air support to effectively counter everything that makes it strong. And even then, 20 range to get detected is HUGE compared to every other camo.
2 Jun 2021, 18:05 PM
#814
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 298

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2021, 17:23 PMJilet


Yes I know it has been the meta but it is not meta for the camo most likely. It is the combination of light artillery barrage and stuka close air support to effectively counter everything that makes it strong. And even then, 20 range to get detected is HUGE compared to every other camo.


That does seem like a pretty big nerf. Especially since it's also going to impact camo on grenadiers in other commanders as well as the camo for JCS in Storm Doctrine, yes? If anything shouldn't the nerf maybe only go in effect for the one commander?
2 Jun 2021, 18:16 PM
#815
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12262 | Subs: 1

Commandos can move thru undetected in the late battlefield and yet the problem static camo grenadiers get.

Yep that makes sense.
2 Jun 2021, 18:22 PM
#816
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 416 | Subs: 1

I also disagree with the camo nerf, or at least think it's too extreme. The other commanders with Ambush Camo (Storm and Encirclement Doctrines) are well below average in popularity.
Replacing one of the Jaeger Infantry's strikes seems to be a better approach.

While the subject has been brought up: I think the Jaeger Command Squad is an awkward unit that doesn't contribute enough that other commander abilities don't do already. Maybe it could use more utility/officer abilities?
2 Jun 2021, 18:36 PM
#817
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12262 | Subs: 1

I also disagree with the camo nerf, or at least think it's too extreme. The other commanders with Ambush Camo (Storm and Encirclement Doctrines) are well below average in popularity.
Replacing one of the Jaeger Infantry's strikes seems to be a better approach.

While the subject has been brought up: I think the Jaeger Command Squad is an awkward unit that doesn't contribute enough that other commander abilities don't do already. Maybe it could use more utility/officer abilities?

I agree and I had made the same point.

Either design as an officer (could get an ability like UKF smoke raid operations) or remove limit of one and re-balance.
2 Jun 2021, 18:48 PM
#818
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 493

I'm pretty sure it's the G43s combined with the offmap abilities that make Jaeger Infantry doctrine so popular, not the camo. I mean on the 3rd place we find Lightning War which also has G43s and stuka loiter, while the next commander with camo, Storm, is on the 14th place (1v1 ostheer).

If the partisans become meta, would their stealth be nerfed too? I mean AT partisan have assault camo (which means they can move around stealthed, unlike grenadiers that are only invisible while standing in cover) and a snare, as well as their very own AT weapon to deal enough damage for an engine critical.

While the subject has been brought up: I think the Jaeger Command Squad is an awkward unit that doesn't contribute enough that other commander abilities don't do already. Maybe it could use more utility/officer abilities?

Ya, JCS is very combat oriented, but it does provide recon, both passively with their insane sight range and actively with flares, as well as smoke nades. These abilities are otherwise not available, or at least not easily (you would need a mortar for smoke, which is not meta in 1v1).

On the other hand these are already available in Storm doctrine in the form of Stuka Smoke drop, that's one of the reason why I have been suggesting to add Stormtroopers instead.

One thing I do want to see tho regarding the JCS is a unique unit icon and portrait. Currently the JCS, JLI and Stormtroopers all share the same portrait.
2 Jun 2021, 19:06 PM
#819
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17547 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2021, 18:16 PMVipper
Commandos can move thru undetected in the late battlefield and yet the problem static camo grenadiers get.

Yep that makes sense.

Commandos can't snare your vehicles.

Why do you think PTRS cons don't have detection range of 4?
2 Jun 2021, 19:11 PM
#820
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 307



Jaeger Infantry has been the most dominant pick for 1v1 by far since the Osttruppen nerfs.

I believe it was also the most vetoed commander in ML. Behind the scenes there have been many complaints and worries about it, in particular about camouflaged fausts, so that aspect has been addressed.



Either remove camo from snaring units or remove snares from camo units at that point Lmfao.
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