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Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

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Pip
22 May 2021, 16:34 PM
#781
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580



Pip is correct in that in general you cant account tech cost to unit cost. As each tech has different subjective value between unlocking upgrades abilities and units.

However the exception here imo is that with molly and at nade tech no other units benifits from this and no other units can be unlocked with this. It only and soley benefits conscripts. It used to be even more expensive and seperated.

Only in this case it can be added to unit cost. 4 cons is meta 3 is close to being meta. Divide to cost by 4 and add up, then put in the 50 muni and 18mp for each 7th man and we have quite an if not the most expensive but fantastic main line squad in the late game.


I'm not sure about even that, honestly. I'd still consider the Molly/AT grenades to be general teching, and their price should be added to the Soviets' "Total tech costs" to reach certain tiers/units, rather than being considered part of an unit's cost (Even if it does affect only a certain squad)

My understanding is that these allied techs are pared out from the regular tech costs in order to make allied teching more "flexible". I.E; You're supposed to be able to get Molly/AT earlier than OST/OKW can get their grenade + snare (As they require BP1/a tech truck to be built, respectively) OR skip that tech in order to be able to reach your T70 or medium tank more quickly.


To this end: Molly/AT + tier 3 should cost slightly more than OST BP1 and tier 2 (To account for the flexibility afforded by them being split), but going for tier 3 without Molly/AT should be discounted when compared to BP1/tier 2. (Assuming everything else is equal, of course. Raw MP/MU/FU pricing for things can be a little misleading sometimes)

How do the numbers work out at the moment, actually? I haven't looked at tech costs in a while. (Ignore healing for either faction for now)

I hope that, even if you still disagree, you understand why I (And to my knowledge; The Balans Teem) consider this the case.


EDIT: As a last thing: honestly, even if you might consider these techs part of Conscripts' cost: I do think they're the best/most cost-effective mainline squad in the game.
22 May 2021, 22:27 PM
#782
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1285

jump backJump back to quoted post22 May 2021, 16:34 PMPip


I'm not sure about even that, honestly. I'd still consider the Molly/AT grenades to be general teching, and their price should be added to the Soviets' "Total tech costs" to reach certain tiers/units, rather than being considered part of an unit's cost (Even if it does affect only a certain squad)

My understanding is that these allied techs are pared out from the regular tech costs in order to make allied teching more "flexible". I.E; You're supposed to be able to get Molly/AT earlier than OST/OKW can get their grenade + snare (As they require BP1/a tech truck to be built, respectively) OR skip that tech in order to be able to reach your T70 or medium tank more quickly.


To this end: Molly/AT + tier 3 should cost slightly more than OST BP1 and tier 2 (To account for the flexibility afforded by them being split), but going for tier 3 without Molly/AT should be discounted when compared to BP1/tier 2. (Assuming everything else is equal, of course. Raw MP/MU/FU pricing for things can be a little misleading sometimes)

How do the numbers work out at the moment, actually? I haven't looked at tech costs in a while. (Ignore healing for either faction for now)

I hope that, even if you still disagree, you understand why I (And to my knowledge; The Balans Teem) consider this the case.


EDIT: As a last thing: honestly, even if you might consider these techs part of Conscripts' cost: I do think they're the best/most cost-effective mainline squad in the game.


Firstly i agree fully that conscripts are the best mainlines overall while not being dps focused. Truly a great unit.

This didnt come from you but people keep refering and complaining that cons are the cheapest and according to some thus op.
Concripts are only so good when investing heavely or a doctrine in them. And they use this as an excuse to buff grens and volks.

I fully understand your reasoning on tech costs. I also agree that its intended to make allied tech flexible as multyple units benefit from it and can be an advantidge if played right.

But where i somewhat disagree is with molly and at nade tech. It feels like its original intent was to inflate cost off cons. And fill two ability slots on a single unit.
As it was about a low tier tech structure in cost for just a snare and weak anti garrison. The current price is fair. Its 125mp and 15 fuel i believe.

I think that cost of atnade/molly plus t3 should be more then ost bp1 and t2 is fine. Btw 15 fuel is about 45 seconds to a minute right?
Maybe it will allow the m5 or even su76 some room if you go t3 first and delay atnade and molly. And still go for t4 and t34 earlier becaus the t70 isent mandatory anymore.


22 May 2021, 22:39 PM
#783
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 307

jump backJump back to quoted post21 May 2021, 20:40 PMPip


Other than Conscripts, who are 257mp + 50mu. Volks are slightly cheaper, but are worse. Rifles and Sections do cost more when fully upgraded though, of course.

Not that I'm saying that VSL Grens should beat all other mainlines, but they obviously aren't the cheapest infantry.


Agreed. For one the upgrade isn't cheap and grenadiers are not the cheapest squads to reinforce. It is being argued heavily that lmg42 grens are still the most viable choice of upgrades. I think VSL grens being able to place sandbags might be a good option for them to help them maintain that 'staying power' that they need as a 5 man mainline squad. Otherwise why wait for 2 CP to upgrade to VSL when you can just reach BP1 and use LMG42s which are better and you can even use them sooner?

I mean personally what I like about German Infantry Doctrine is the upgrade for Panzergren and using them alongside Grens with their smoke and mark target, but otherwise I think the doctrine is now lacking and a lot of its abilities are better off chosen from other commanders which give you more. The point of the German Infantry Doctrine (IMO) is to have more staying power with your mainlines and providing your infantry with support they need to do it
23 May 2021, 10:16 AM
#784
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 471


However the exception here imo is that with molly and at nade tech no other units benifits from this and no other units can be unlocked with this. It only and soley benefits conscripts. It used to be even more expensive and seperated.


Almost all upgrades are like that. USF nades are only for the rifles, all elite commander inf. has nades anyway. volster/nades for UKF are as well(IS only). Only exception here is probably the weapon unlock for USF.
23 May 2021, 12:25 PM
#785
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1285



Almost all upgrades are like that. USF nades are only for the rifles, all elite commander inf. has nades anyway. volster/nades for UKF are as well(IS only). Only exception here is probably the weapon unlock for USF.


The nade tech for usf unlocks the nade for rifles ans smoke for rear echelons afaik.
23 May 2021, 14:39 PM
#786
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 132

jump backJump back to quoted post22 May 2021, 22:39 PMLewka


Agreed. For one the upgrade isn't cheap and grenadiers are not the cheapest squads to reinforce. It is being argued heavily that lmg42 grens are still the most viable choice of upgrades. I think VSL grens being able to place sandbags might be a good option for them to help them maintain that 'staying power' that they need as a 5 man mainline squad. Otherwise why wait for 2 CP to upgrade to VSL when you can just reach BP1 and use LMG42s which are better and you can even use them sooner?

I mean personally what I like about German Infantry Doctrine is the upgrade for Panzergren and using them alongside Grens with their smoke and mark target, but otherwise I think the doctrine is now lacking and a lot of its abilities are better off chosen from other commanders which give you more. The point of the German Infantry Doctrine (IMO) is to have more staying power with your mainlines and providing your infantry with support they need to do it


I mean doesn't 5 man grens help with the staying power a good amount? Like you don't get the DPS boost from the MG42 but with 5 men it's harder to lose grens and they have more health to stay in the fight.
Tbh I don't really get all these calls to buff VSL again. Like we just got out of them being the dominating meta with the last patch and they are still a pretty common 1v1 commander. Do we really need to buff them and risk making them the meta again?
23 May 2021, 15:10 PM
#787
avatar of JPA32

Posts: 178



I mean doesn't 5 man grens help with the staying power a good amount? Like you don't get the DPS boost from the MG42 but with 5 men it's harder to lose grens and they have more health to stay in the fight.
Tbh I don't really get all these calls to buff VSL again. Like we just got out of them being the dominating meta with the last patch and they are still a pretty common 1v1 commander. Do we really need to buff them and risk making them the meta again?


By the time your Grens are Vet 3 you're not losing them unless you catastrophically screw something up and if you do lose them the 5th man wasn't going to save you because you probably died to Rocket Arty.

My problem with the upgrade is that it doesn't do anything functionally much different from the MG-42 or G43 upgrades. It's just an effective damage upgrade at all ranges which is either invalidated because it's too weak, or op because it's too strong. It's no different from SVT Cons in theory and look how broken they are. (For slightly different circumstances though)

The ability needs to actually do something for the unit to make it stand out. I could totally justify a weaker MG42/G43 Gren if it had some sort of ability or some sort of playstyle change to it's use over other Gren variants. Free Medkits is almost completely irrelevant on any grand scale of things.

For example, give the Veteran Squad Leader "On Me!" from the USF Captain. Now you have a Gren squad that can answer MG's as a trade off for being weaker than a MG42 Gren. Suddenly you have purpose to the unit and a desire to build 1 if needed.

Also German Infantry outside of VSL Grens is incredibly strong and should probably be toned down a small bit. No one cares because Jaeger Infantry exists, but German Infantry is nearly just as stupidly good even if VSL Grens are useless atm. The option of an ultra light, Stormtroopers, A skillbuff and Frag Bomb are all fantastic, hell even 5 Man Pios are amazing for repair purposes. I'd honestly trade Festung Support's Relief Infantry for Assault and Hold just to lower the doctrine strength a little. (And buff Festung Support) and even then I think the doctrine would still be too good.
23 May 2021, 15:34 PM
#788
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1285



I mean doesn't 5 man grens help with the staying power a good amount? Like you don't get the DPS boost from the MG42 but with 5 men it's harder to lose grens and they have more health to stay in the fight.
Tbh I don't really get all these calls to buff VSL again. Like we just got out of them being the dominating meta with the last patch and they are still a pretty common 1v1 commander. Do we really need to buff them and risk making them the meta again?


Yeah sandbags and a 5th man are over the top. Vsl is fine as is imo. It makes them less prone to getting wiped as intended.
23 May 2021, 15:47 PM
#789
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Almost all upgrades are like that. USF nades are only for the rifles, all elite commander inf. has nades anyway. volster/nades for UKF are as well(IS only). Only exception here is probably the weapon unlock for USF.

The only other upgrade that only effects 1 unit is Tommy nades.
Usf nades also unlocks smoke for RE and officers (and also a nade for the lieutenant) and bolster effects sappers as well as tommies.
23 May 2021, 21:23 PM
#790
avatar of Sgt.BigHead

Posts: 65

VSL Grenadiers 5 men redundant , Giving them slight target size or RA bonus plus couple of minor utilities (fast cap, diverse .etc..)tied to veterancy more logical.
Name is "veteran squad leader" it has to have vet leader.
Or
VSL Upgrade gives;
one sniper model to squad as a leader with LMG 34 or 42
buffing squads weapon aim time ,Rate of fire or LMG Burst buff
With RA Bonus But expensive Reinforcement cost and time (semi Obers)...
23 May 2021, 23:25 PM
#791
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 307



I mean doesn't 5 man grens help with the staying power a good amount? Like you don't get the DPS boost from the MG42 but with 5 men it's harder to lose grens and they have more health to stay in the fight.
Tbh I don't really get all these calls to buff VSL again. Like we just got out of them being the dominating meta with the last patch and they are still a pretty common 1v1 commander. Do we really need to buff them and risk making them the meta again?


The change from a G43 to an STG was a good nerf, but I believe it is because of the RA nerf which they no longer have that people are concerned about for their staying power. As well as other aspects of the doctrine being more appealing in other commanders now

Which is why I suggested the idea of allowing them to place sandbags. I really don't think giving a mainline the ability to place sandbags upgraded after 2CP is over the top. A point I saw people making was that Osttruppen have the staying power of VSL grens and can place sandbags as well

Just because VSL is supposedly being taken out of the meta why should the upgrade not be viable?

VSL Grenadiers 5 men redundant , Giving them slight target size or RA bonus plus couple of minor utilities (fast cap, diverse .etc..)tied to veterancy more logical.
Name is "veteran squad leader" it has to have vet leader.
Or
VSL Upgrade gives;
one sniper model to squad as a leader with LMG 34 or 42
buffing squads weapon aim time ,Rate of fire or LMG Burst buff
With RA Bonus But expensive Reinforcement cost and time (semi Obers)...


While I agree, I think VSL grens could use some tuning to remain competitive, I think those buffs are a little too much. Also they already receive a ROF improvement upon upgrading
___
You do give me an idea to an Unpopular Opinion though, that Panzergren should possibly be able to upgrade to an lmg34 instead of G43s. I know people say this contradicts the point of them since they are supposedly meant to fire on the move, but I have seen them use dropped lmg's quite effectively, including in ranked matches I have viewed from high rank players. And this would also be historically accurate for the unit, and probably would be a more useful long range upgrade than a G43s which some argue is redundant as well. Just a thought, and not something I would see implemented any time soon
24 May 2021, 00:48 AM
#792
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 556

Would much rather the PGrens to come with Tier 2 and wreck infantry like it did back then rather than the current iteration where it literally comes 2 minutes into the game smashes everything for the 2 minutes of its arrival and is meh compared to other elite infantry for the rest of the game.
24 May 2021, 06:25 AM
#793
avatar of Sgt.BigHead

Posts: 65

jump backJump back to quoted post23 May 2021, 23:25 PMLewka





While I agree, I think VSL grens could use some tuning to remain competitive, I think those buffs are a little too much. Also they already receive a ROF improvement upon upgrading
___
ROF Buff comes from that extra model It feels lmg grens
have better ROF But no idea about how the check proper stat list of units besides sereaila's site.
24 May 2021, 06:33 AM
#794
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 307

jump backJump back to quoted post24 May 2021, 00:48 AMJilet
Would much rather the PGrens to come with Tier 2 and wreck infantry like it did back then rather than the current iteration where it literally comes 2 minutes into the game smashes everything for the 2 minutes of its arrival and is meh compared to other elite infantry for the rest of the game.

Yeah times have certainly changed. I think in certain situations Panzergren are quite good at replacing infantry losses from other squad wipes. I really like giving Panzergren accuracy bulletin for the purpose of supporting my mainline's whether they're lmg Grens, VSL Grens, Osttruppen, or assault Gren. Also I think this makes is easier to replace loses of mainline troops (I really do think accuracy bulletin is good)

jump backJump back to quoted post23 May 2021, 23:25 PMLewka





While I agree, I think VSL grens could use some tuning to remain competitive, I think those buffs are a little too much. Also they already receive a ROF improvement upon upgrading
___
ROF Buff comes from that extra model It feels lmg grens
have better ROF But no idea about how the check proper stat list of units besides sereaila's site.

___________
Oh I see. I was just basing it off the tooltip that claims that the upgrade improves the squad's ROF. However, I know a good number of the game's tooltips are no longer accurate and need to be updated. I wouldn't mind seeing some stats on VSL upgrade's ROF compared to lmg42 gren's upgraded squad if the squad's ROF is changed at all besides the obvious one, with the soldier carrying the lmg.
24 May 2021, 06:33 AM
#795
avatar of Sgt.BigHead

Posts: 65

jump backJump back to quoted post24 May 2021, 00:48 AMJilet
Would much rather the PGrens to come with Tier 2 and wreck infantry like it did back then rather than the current iteration where it literally comes 2 minutes into the game smashes everything for the 2 minutes of its arrival and is meh compared to other elite infantry for the rest of the game.

For non doctrinal Elite infantry They are perfectly fine with near armor buff its in good state. If Pgren gonna get buff , It needs to go T2 Or T3 (If balancers go wild)
24 May 2021, 06:37 AM
#796
avatar of Sgt.BigHead

Posts: 65

jump backJump back to quoted post24 May 2021, 06:33 AMLewka

Yeah times have certainly changed. I think in certain situations Panzergren are quite good at replacing infantry losses from other squad wipes

jump backJump back to quoted post23 May 2021, 23:25 PMLewka





While I agree, I think VSL grens could use some tuning to remain competitive, I think those buffs are a little too much. Also they already receive a ROF improvement upon upgrading
___
ROF Buff comes from that extra model It feels lmg grens
have better ROF But no idea about how the check proper stat list of units besides sereaila's site.


Oh I see. I was just basing it off the tooltip that claims that the upgrade improves the squad's ROF. However, I know a good number of the game's tooltips are no longer accurate and need to be updated. I wouldn't mind seeing some stats on VSL upgrade's ROF compared to lmg42 gren's upgraded squad if the squad's ROF is changed at all besides the obvious one, with the soldier carrying the lmg.


Same here , Dunno why there is no unit stat specs around Coh2 Site or etc. In regards Of LMG Pgrens ; For 80 Mun upgrade at T3 They can get LMG 34's Non doctrinal , It could be interesting and will be alternate and more durable Grens for late game... But All this ideas are not proper way to balance Ostheer unfortunately. Only literally major adjustment needs USF ,OKW ,UKF factions which brokes the game to the zion.
24 May 2021, 06:39 AM
#797
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 307

Yeah I mean I didn't actually think they'd do it at this point in the game, the lmg upgrade for Panzergren I mean. I just thought it'd be a cool idea. However for balance reasons I can assume that's why that wouldn't be touched
24 May 2021, 06:47 AM
#798
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post24 May 2021, 00:48 AMJilet
Would much rather the PGrens to come with Tier 2 and wreck infantry like it did back then rather than the current iteration where it literally comes 2 minutes into the game smashes everything for the 2 minutes of its arrival and is meh compared to other elite infantry for the rest of the game.

But PG's hasn't been nerfed though. They are the same as they were when they used to come at T2. the only thing thats changed is that their bundle nade range bonus from vet was changed to nade cooldown buff.
24 May 2021, 06:50 AM
#799
avatar of Sgt.BigHead

Posts: 65


But PG's hasn't been nerfed though. They are the same as they were when they used to come at T2. the only thing thats changed is that their bundle nade range bonus from vet was changed to nade cooldown buff.


True , but personally didnt like that nerf. Allied esp USF,UKF have allready long range Artillery nukegrenade by defult.
Pip
24 May 2021, 16:33 PM
#800
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

jump backJump back to quoted post24 May 2021, 06:33 AMLewka

Oh I see. I was just basing it off the tooltip that claims that the upgrade improves the squad's ROF. However, I know a good number of the game's tooltips are no longer accurate and need to be updated. I wouldn't mind seeing some stats on VSL upgrade's ROF compared to lmg42 gren's upgraded squad if the squad's ROF is changed at all besides the obvious one, with the soldier carrying the lmg.


The game's tooltips are rarely accurate, you should basically never take them at face value.

Pretty sure the G43 states it's intended for "long range" combat.
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