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Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

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21 May 2021, 12:55 PM
#761
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2926 | Subs: 2

Sure, You do realize that cons are cheap to both purchase and reinforce right. Unless you play like a moron you should not bleed.

Conscripts bleed heavily when Axis upgrade their infantry until you can upgrade Conscripts with MR. They are cheap to reinforce, but also come with high RA.
21 May 2021, 13:05 PM
#762
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563


Conscripts bleed heavily when Axis upgrade their infantry until you can upgrade Conscripts with MR. They are cheap to reinforce, but also come with high RA.
I guess soviets have no way to actually fight the axis besides just charging infantry.
21 May 2021, 13:13 PM
#763
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post21 May 2021, 11:58 AMJilet


Maybe because Conscripts have to wait until T4, bleeding like stuffed pigs unlike Obers which come at at T4 and directly start owning allied infantry.

They really don't, especially if you are against USF and the enemy has already double weapons
21 May 2021, 13:17 PM
#764
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

Sure, You do realize that cons are cheap to both purchase and reinforce right. Unless you play like a moron you should not bleed.


The high reinforce cost is misleading. Soviets are mp starved more then any other faction.
How many model do both grens and cons drop during the game? Cons drop much more models. So much so that it evens out mostly in the end.
Cons have to close in, grens can stay at range much better. meaning the later takes less damage overall then the former.

You have play rather poorly to pay more in total for reinforcing for grens then what soviet pay for reinforcing cons.
21 May 2021, 13:20 PM
#765
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 556


They really don't, especially if you are against USF and the enemy has already double weapons


USF is something else. 120 Munitions is already a fortune and Rifles are not cheap either. Also finding spare munis for all double weapons while you have to take sweepers, smokes, mines is whole another hardship anyways.
21 May 2021, 13:25 PM
#766
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

jump backJump back to quoted post21 May 2021, 13:20 PMJilet


USF is something else. 120 Munitions is already a fortune and Rifles are not cheap either. Also finding spare munis for all double weapons while you have to take sweepers, smokes, mines is whole another hardship anyways.

It's the same for UKF, and for shocktroopers or guards. Obersoldaten are far from truly powerful from the get to go. You need to take special care of them until vet 2, more so than any other elite infantry
21 May 2021, 13:31 PM
#767
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2926 | Subs: 2

I guess soviets have no way to actually fight the axis besides just charging infantry.

Well then, do the calculation or whatever you like. Conscripts are not very MP efficient against upgraded Axis squads before their upgrade. On top of that, a Soviet Conscript build generates a lack of MP in the early to mid phase, leading to a very MP starved faction until you get MR and vet3 on your Conscripts. Soviet tech is way more expensive than Axis's tech regarding MP.
21 May 2021, 16:06 PM
#768
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563


Well then, do the calculation or whatever you like. Conscripts are not very MP efficient against upgraded Axis squads before their upgrade. On top of that, a Soviet Conscript build generates a lack of MP in the early to mid phase, leading to a very MP starved faction until you get MR and vet3 on your Conscripts. Soviet tech is way more expensive than Axis's tech regarding MP.
Then I wonder why there are con builds so popular if that was the case. Surely con penal Hybrid builds would be prevalent if with now the earlier timing of t70 back teching to t2 shouldn't really be an issue.
21 May 2021, 17:28 PM
#769
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2926 | Subs: 2

Then I wonder why there are con builds so popular if that was the case. Surely con penal Hybrid builds would be prevalent if with now the earlier timing of t70 back teching to t2 shouldn't really be an issue.

T70 has been meta for years now because of Soviet mid game weakness. It is the only unit to really mitigate the Axis power spike because neither Cons nor Penals will carry. That is literally the only reason why the SU76 and M5 are virtually deleted from the game. If you want to disagree you probably need to provide some more reasoning than saying Cons are cheap to reinforce.
21 May 2021, 19:52 PM
#770
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17629 | Subs: 9


I mean 270mp+60muni Shouldn't be strong vs all other mainline infantry???

Not really when all other mainline infantry post upgrades dwarves this cost.
Pip
21 May 2021, 20:40 PM
#771
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1585

jump backJump back to quoted post21 May 2021, 19:52 PMKatitof

Not really when all other mainline infantry post upgrades dwarves this cost.


Other than Conscripts, who are 257mp + 50mu. Volks are slightly cheaper, but are worse. Rifles and Sections do cost more when fully upgraded though, of course.

Not that I'm saying that VSL Grens should beat all other mainlines, but they obviously aren't the cheapest infantry.
21 May 2021, 20:44 PM
#772
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17629 | Subs: 9

jump backJump back to quoted post21 May 2021, 20:40 PMPip


Other than Conscripts, who are 257mp + 50mu. Volks are slightly cheaper, but are worse. Rifles and Sections do cost more when fully upgraded though, of course.

Molo and AT nades unlock for free now?

And timing is also a factor, upgrades that arrive in late game tend to be stronger then ones in early game.

Not that I'm saying that VSL Grens should beat all other mainlines, but they obviously aren't the cheapest infantry.

They still are if you don't ignore some factors.
Pip
21 May 2021, 20:53 PM
#773
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1585

jump backJump back to quoted post21 May 2021, 20:44 PMKatitof

Molo and AT nades unlock for free now?


Molo and AT nades are tech, not unit costs. It doesn't make sense to include those (or any similar techs) in unit costs, particularly with how it gets diluted the more units you create.


jump backJump back to quoted post21 May 2021, 20:44 PMKatitof

And timing is also a factor, upgrades that arrive in late game tend to be stronger then ones in early game.


Sure, but that isnt what you were saying.

jump backJump back to quoted post21 May 2021, 20:44 PMKatitof

They still are if you don't ignore some factors.


They aren't, if you don't erroneously include incorrect factors.

They STILL aren't, even if you do, given the price of Volksgrenadiers.
21 May 2021, 22:25 PM
#774
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 132


I mean 270mp+60muni Shouldn't be strong vs all other mainline infantry???

I mean they compare pretty well against similar costed units. Especially if your considering their timing. Like sure late in the game the 7 man cons might be more effective but that's also like a 7ish minute difference where VSL gets to operate. And in that time frame they preform quite well.
Against rifles and brens they still do quite well until they get double bars or brens (and bolster for IS) while still coming mostly earlier. I don't really see why VSL need to be the end all be all of infantry units like seemingly you want.
22 May 2021, 02:11 AM
#775
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 717

About Ost relief infantry and Soviet rapid Conscription,now in Test mod is little useful than before,but maybe could more controllable,change “lost ”X infantry to call-in new infantry squad to “reinforced” X infantry to call-in new squad
22 May 2021, 08:13 AM
#776
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post21 May 2021, 19:52 PMKatitof

Not really when all other mainline infantry post upgrades dwarves this cost.

so 300 man penal and 4-man sections dwarf their this cost.
22 May 2021, 09:34 AM
#777
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

yo, an Idea for Assault Grens. At T3 give them a second alternate upgrade. This gives them smoke(replaces sprint) and 2 stormtrooper mp40's for 70 munis.
22 May 2021, 13:06 PM
#778
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 472

jump backJump back to quoted post21 May 2021, 20:53 PMPip


Molo and AT nades are tech, not unit costs. It doesn't make sense to include those (or any similar techs) in unit costs, particularly with how it gets diluted the more units you create.


Of course they also have to think about tech cost in terms of "cost efficiency". Most of upgrades for the Allies mainline inf. requires additional upgrade. You have to consider opportunity cost of that mp & fuel used.
22 May 2021, 14:52 PM
#779
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 854

yo, an Idea for Assault Grens. At T3 give them a second alternate upgrade. This gives them smoke(replaces sprint) and 2 stormtrooper mp40's for 70 munis.


Assault Grens behind your support weps: "Time for rape" >:-)

What DPS would they end up with? Think with one less man it should at least be equal to shock troops if not more.
22 May 2021, 15:55 PM
#780
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



Of course they also have to think about tech cost in terms of "cost efficiency". Most of upgrades for the Allies mainline inf. requires additional upgrade. You have to consider opportunity cost of that mp & fuel used.


Pip is correct in that in general you cant account tech cost to unit cost. As each tech has different subjective value between unlocking upgrades abilities and units.

However the exception here imo is that with molly and at nade tech no other units benifits from this and no other units can be unlocked with this. It only and soley benefits conscripts. It used to be even more expensive and seperated.

Only in this case it can be added to unit cost. 4 cons is meta 3 is close to being meta. Divide to cost by 4 and add up, then put in the 50 muni and 18mp for each 7th man and we have quite an if not the most expensive but fantastic main line squad in the late game.
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