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Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

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21 Apr 2021, 00:27 AM
#463
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2021, 22:11 PMVipper
My point is that linear DPS profiles are not optimal and Relic had a reason for using curves instead of lines.


It still has a DPS curve, one very similar to Grenadiers Kar 98k in fact, with the biggest difference being the near range being at eight rather than zero. An SVT-40 profile for G43's would improve them at all ranges rather than just up close.
21 Apr 2021, 02:53 AM
#464
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 789

In german mechanized you now have smoke bombs and commad panzer smoke artillery its very redundant
21 Apr 2021, 03:23 AM
#465
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

In german mechanized you now have smoke bombs and commad panzer smoke artillery its very redundant

USF has off map smoke in some commanders despite many a unit in their roster having smoke suppprt.
UKF has off maps despite their infantry and snipers being able to call in arty.

USF has off map recon despite the major having recon. See also ukf with airlandomg officer and OKW with the uhu.

Sometimes your unit that can do a support isn't in place to do a support and an off map is handy.
MMX
21 Apr 2021, 03:27 AM
#466
avatar of MMX

Posts: 997 | Subs: 1

[...]
PGrens:
- I know some people like them. They were also used in previous tourneys, but I can't remember when I saw them last in the competitive scene. Personally, I also found them underwhelming. They are supposed to specialize PGrens at all ranges and add more DPS long range. But their DPS only gets better on the last 5-7 meters. Even if we include moving DPS, it is still the same. Standard PGrens win big on closer ranges.
- Power-wise the same thing: Less DPS, same EHP (or did I forget something) -> less power.

There is just no good reason to get G43s on PGrens. You just pay mun, gimp their DPS on almost all ranges while giving... interrogation? Really? That's probably the most expensive ability unlock there is.

If they are supposed to be all range specialists with good moving DPS, they need better long range DPS. Or the StG needs a more refined profile to have higher short-mid DPS while decreasing faster on the long range. Otherwise they won't have a niche.


interesting analysis. i've always felt that the G43 upgrade turns my PGrens into terminators, but maybe that was just due to the flashy firing sound of the rifles. if the only gain is merely a bit more DPS at range 30+ and the occasional chance for interrogation, i feel the mun cost together with the drastic DPS loss on mid to low range make PGren G43s a really awful upgrade.
21 Apr 2021, 03:35 AM
#467
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Apr 2021, 03:27 AMMMX


interesting analysis. i've always felt that the G43 upgrade turns my PGrens into terminators, but maybe that was just due to the flashy firing sound of the rifles. if the only gain is merely a bit more DPS at range 30+ and the occasional chance for interrogation, i feel the mun cost together with the drastic DPS loss on mid to low range make PGren G43s a really awful upgrade.

I used to upgrade exclusively shreked pgrens with the g43s for the extra vision and the knowledge that they shouldn't be anywhere near an infantry fight anyways and maybe the awesome g43 sound will scare off a squad or 2 as they fire from range. Can't tell you if it's smart but it's what I doo
21 Apr 2021, 06:35 AM
#468
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

In german mechanized you now have smoke bombs and commad panzer smoke artillery its very redundant


Agreed, maybe put in a StuG III E or something?
21 Apr 2021, 06:48 AM
#469
avatar of SneakEye
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 781 | Subs: 5

In german mechanized you now have smoke bombs and commad panzer smoke artillery its very redundant


Agreed, maybe put in a StuG III E or something?


Beta v1
Mechanized Grenadier Group replaced with 250/1 Halftrack
LeFH replaced with Vehicle Crew Repair

Beta v3
Smoke bombs replaced with leFH 105mm

It doesn't have smoke bombs anymore.
21 Apr 2021, 07:02 AM
#470
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2807 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Apr 2021, 03:27 AMMMX


interesting analysis. i've always felt that the G43 upgrade turns my PGrens into terminators, but maybe that was just due to the flashy firing sound of the rifles. if the only gain is merely a bit more DPS at range 30+ and the occasional chance for interrogation, i feel the mun cost together with the drastic DPS loss on mid to low range make PGren G43s a really awful upgrade.

Just did some quick tests in the game. G43s are literally utter trash.
4 fights PGrens StG/G43 vs unupgraded Rangers from range 20 and 30-ish (actually the way the sandbags were set up I think it was more like 28-29)

PGrens win convincingly at range 20 with 2-3 models and ~50% HP remaining.
With G43s, they lost one fight, two fights won with about 2 models and 20-30% HP remaining and the fourth fight was literally a shootout between the last PGren and the last Ranger that could have gone either way.

At 30 range, in my tests they performed similar to maybe a bit worse to StGs. But given that it were only 4 fights, similar is a good description.


I used to get the upgrade because I heard AE and Ed80Hertz say the G43 were good on PGrens in some long ago tourney. But whenever I got it, I had the feeling normal PGrens would do just fine and looking at the tests and numbers I am pretty sure I am right on this.

There is no reason to get this upgrade. Interrogation? I could as well just get a Gren with G43s. Still a downgrade, but at least only on a 240 MP squad.
And I previously forgot about sprint. But why should I? There might be some situations where I can lob this bundle nade in, but overall it does not make sense. I don't want to close in to use my inferior DPS. And why should I sprint away just to get similar DPS compared to StGs? There are situations where this makes sense tactically, but overall it is not worth the heavy downgrade.
21 Apr 2021, 07:16 AM
#471
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13091 | Subs: 1



It still has a DPS curve, one very similar to Grenadiers Kar 98k in fact, with the biggest difference being the near range being at eight rather than zero. An SVT-40 profile for G43's would improve them at all ranges rather than just up close.

It might help G43 but it would be a change that would go outside of weapon profiles for no good reason while moving away from the idea of relative positioning and thus in a wrong direction.

It would also be unnecessary since there are solution that do are within the game design.
MMX
21 Apr 2021, 07:34 AM
#472
avatar of MMX

Posts: 997 | Subs: 1


Just did some quick tests in the game. G43s are literally utter trash. [...]


oh well, guess this is another great example that in-game perception and "feels" can be quite deceptive at times.
kudos for doing the tests and happy to hear that this case also appears to be a pretty good validation for your infantry comparison model.

G43 myth busted!


I used to upgrade exclusively shreked pgrens with the g43s for the extra vision and the knowledge that they shouldn't be anywhere near an infantry fight anyways and maybe the awesome g43 sound will scare off a squad or 2 as they fire from range. Can't tell you if it's smart but it's what I doo


didn't know about the extra vision. this might be a redeeming quality for an otherwise pretty meh "upgrade". or were you talking about the interrogation ability?
21 Apr 2021, 07:44 AM
#473
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


Just did some quick tests in the game. G43s are literally utter trash.
4 fights PGrens StG/G43 vs unupgraded Rangers from range 20 and 30-ish (actually the way the sandbags were set up I think it was more like 28-29)

PGrens win convincingly at range 20 with 2-3 models and ~50% HP remaining.
With G43s, they lost one fight, two fights won with about 2 models and 20-30% HP remaining and the fourth fight was literally a shootout between the last PGren and the last Ranger that could have gone either way.

At 30 range, in my tests they performed similar to maybe a bit worse to StGs. But given that it were only 4 fights, similar is a good description.


I used to get the upgrade because I heard AE and Ed80Hertz say the G43 were good on PGrens in some long ago tourney. But whenever I got it, I had the feeling normal PGrens would do just fine and looking at the tests and numbers I am pretty sure I am right on this.

There is no reason to get this upgrade. Interrogation? I could as well just get a Gren with G43s. Still a downgrade, but at least only on a 240 MP squad.
And I previously forgot about sprint. But why should I? There might be some situations where I can lob this bundle nade in, but overall it does not make sense. I don't want to close in to use my inferior DPS. And why should I sprint away just to get similar DPS compared to StGs? There are situations where this makes sense tactically, but overall it is not worth the heavy downgrade.


They have better 1v1 chasing capabilities and more guaranteed mp damage compared to focus fire false weapons?

Curious how the fight looks like after X amount of time rather than waiting for 1 squad to wipe the other one.
21 Apr 2021, 08:00 AM
#474
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2807 | Subs: 2



They have better 1v1 chasing capabilities and more guaranteed mp damage compared to focus fire false weapons?

Curious how the fight looks like after X amount of time rather than waiting for 1 squad to wipe the other one.

EDIT: Error on my side, moving DPS on G43 is actually better


From what I calculate, the moving DPS is a downgrade even on a per-weapon basis. I doubt that G43 PGrens are better at chasing in most situations.
MP damage is debatable as well. Better "plannable"? Maybe. But also way less damage and therefore less kills in general.

Not sure what you mean exactly by the last part.
The StG is the "better" weapon up to range 27 when standing still and if I entered the numbers correctly 31 when moving. The loss of the first model should hit G43 PGrens harder since they lose their StG first, which is the "better" weapon in regards to DPS. Funnily enough, G43s PGrens would be better off if the StG was the weapon to be transferred.
21 Apr 2021, 08:32 AM
#475
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 366

Well at lease g43s are still a buff to storm-troopers as they have gren kar98s :D I am surprized through, they probably gave a lot of people the impression they were really good.
21 Apr 2021, 08:34 AM
#476
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7


From what I calculate, the moving DPS is a downgrade even on a per-weapon basis. I doubt that G43 PGrens are better at chasing in most situations.
MP damage is debatable as well. Better "plannable"? Maybe. But also way less damage and therefore less kills in general.

Not sure what you mean exactly by the last part.
The StG is the "better" weapon up to range 27 when standing still and if I entered the numbers correctly 31 when moving. The loss of the first model should hit G43 PGrens harder since they lose their StG first, which is the "better" weapon in regards to DPS. Funnily enough, G43s PGrens would be better off if the StG was the weapon to be transferred.


According to Serealia, the G43s have significantly better moving DPS at any range.
8.8/5.3/3.8 at ranges 10/20/35 for the G43
6.1/3.2/1.1 at ranges 10/20/35 for the STG 44

The G43 also has significantly better long range DPS, at 200-400% of the STG 44, at ranges 30-35.


In real ingame scenarios this makes them a lot more versatile than the STG 44s, because they become good at all ranges rather than being forced to close in. And the extra moving DPS compensates for the lower close to mid range DPS when assaulting or chasing. Especially at vet 1 with -16% RA and on top of that the -10% RA from being near vehicles they can dominate any enemy infantry at long range at that time.
21 Apr 2021, 08:47 AM
#477
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Apr 2021, 07:16 AMVipper
It might help G43 but it would be a change that would go outside of weapon profiles for no good reason while moving away from the idea of relative positioning and thus in a wrong direction.

It would also be unnecessary since there are solution that do are within the game design.


The only one that thinks the SVT is an enigma that lacks a weapon profile and mystically exists outside the game design is you. I've already explained how the SVT profile works, but you are set in your ways and refuse to understand. It's literally a semi-automatic rifle profile but slightly flatter.
21 Apr 2021, 09:23 AM
#478
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13091 | Subs: 1



The only one that thinks the SVT is an enigma that lacks a weapon profile and mystically exists outside the game design is you.

Pls do not pretend to know what the majority of people think of the SVT.

Regardless what you think the SVT in game is semi auto (carbine according to Relic) yet it was changed by the MOD team in their first patch not to follow the carbine profile of other weapons like:
G43 PF/Grenadier
M1 riflemen
RE carbine
USF crew carbine
elite m1 carbine paras/ranger

for no apparent reason and with disastrous result I might add making Penal completely broken (SVT/Flamer/ourah) for 6 month.


I've already explained how the SVT profile works, but you are set in your ways and refuse to understand. It's literally a semi-automatic rifle profile but slightly flatter.

That comes in contrast with what you posted a couple of post before:


It still has a DPS curve, one very similar to Grenadiers Kar 98k in fact, with the biggest difference being the near range being at eight rather than zero. An SVT-40 profile for G43's would improve them at all ranges rather than just up close.

K98 is bolt action and SVT is linear up to range 6 where it become flat.

Fact remains that other carbines weapon have curve in their DPS profile while SVT does not.

As I already have pointed SVT is the exception so if there is a need for change it should follow the rest of weapons and not the other round.

Unless one want to complete redesign carbine profile and change all the carbine weapons. Even then the result will simply to reduce the effect of relative positioning is small arm fire something that should be avoided.


21 Apr 2021, 09:24 AM
#479
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


From what I calculate, the moving DPS is a downgrade even on a per-weapon basis. I doubt that G43 PGrens are better at chasing in most situations.
MP damage is debatable as well. Better "plannable"? Maybe. But also way less damage and therefore less kills in general.

Not sure what you mean exactly by the last part.
The StG is the "better" weapon up to range 27 when standing still and if I entered the numbers correctly 31 when moving. The loss of the first model should hit G43 PGrens harder since they lose their StG first, which is the "better" weapon in regards to DPS. Funnily enough, G43s PGrens would be better off if the StG was the weapon to be transferred.


In regards to weapon profile and chasing: what sanders said.

What i mention about limiting time or even model deaths, refers to the fact about how non focus fire weapons work in that there's generally a bit of spread of damage outside of the main model they are targeting initially.

I'm curious now how it would look like to face PG vs G43 PG. And in an unrelated note: focus fire true PG vs false PG
21 Apr 2021, 10:12 AM
#480
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2807 | Subs: 2



According to Serealia, the G43s have significantly better moving DPS at any range.
8.8/5.3/3.8 at ranges 10/20/35 for the G43
6.1/3.2/1.1 at ranges 10/20/35 for the STG 44

The G43 also has significantly better long range DPS, at 200-400% of the STG 44, at ranges 30-35.


In real ingame scenarios this makes them a lot more versatile than the STG 44s, because they become good at all ranges rather than being forced to close in. And the extra moving DPS compensates for the lower close to mid range DPS when assaulting or chasing. Especially at vet 1 with -16% RA and on top of that the -10% RA from being near vehicles they can dominate any enemy infantry at long range at that time.

I have to revise some of my previous statements due to a calculation error affecting moving DPS. You're mostly right with your points, BUT:

Serealia is wrong by 0-25% (generally) depending on weapon and range. We need to keep that in mind for discussion and especially for - in your case - also balancing decisions.

The actual DPS is:
Standing
StG 12.3/7.4/1.4
G43 8.1/5.0/3.7
equivalency at 27-28 meters

Moving
StG 6.6/3.7/0.7
G43 7.1/4.6/3.4

Serealia exaggerates the difference quite a lot. G43s are indeed better on the move, but only by about 10% up to range 20, then they go up to 500% albeit at relatively low to okay DPS.


I have a couple of issues with your points though:
- At the very edge, the advantage is not worth as much because 1) the formation forces you to move an additional couple of meters in so that all models can shoot. This reduces the actual fighting distance by a couple of meters (which is significant when we only have ~5 meters of leeway). And 2) you need to look for cover. Moving away 5 meters gets you out of range so the squad is useless. You'd rather have to move in 5 meters to the closest sand bag.
- Ostheer already has a long range squad with Grens that have better DPS compared to G43 PGrens coincidentally from range 27 upwards as well with better DPS retention. So for static fights, an LMG Gren is way more effective in damage and cost.


I can see now that they might have a niche as chasers, but there are some oddities with the upgrade.
Units with good moving DPS should also have better close DPS (otherwise there is no real benefit of closing in). The mid-close range downgrade makes them a weird choice for assaulting positions.
The upgrade is combined with sprint which is not as valuable for G43s especially on PGrens. Yes, you can maybe cut into a retreat path. But having an ability that allows you to close in but disables weapons is a weird choice if the actual strengths of your upgrade is long range and moving combat
If I can bridge the first 5-10 meters (remember the speed boost at vet1 near vehicles that you mentioned), StGs are the better choice. I trade 10% moving DPS vs the ability to stand still and do between 30-50% more DPS anytime.


With the new numbers I can see where the G43 might find its niche on PGrens, but I don't think the case is very clear and it is overall a very odd upgrade.
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