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Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

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11 Apr 2021, 14:35 PM
#301
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3062 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2021, 13:45 PMVipper
One of the most popular commanders received another buff with merging Riegel with 251. The commander should be nerfed not buffed. On the other hand the commander has many recon option with Spotting scopes/overrflight/Flare from 251.

I would suggest again to instead of merging MOP with riegel and have a 2 mines available in the 251 to rename the ability "AT training" and allow PG to plant riegel and Pak to get passive cloak when stationary with no bonus and make the ability available to more commanders. As for Jaeger A it could get some low impact abilities


So you don't want to buff Jaeger Armor, but also want to buff Jaeger Armor? Pick one.

The MOP merge just coincidentally affects Jaeger Armor, it's primarily meant to make the other commanders that had the MOP or the Riegel more attractive by turning two decent but not outstanding abilities into one nice package. I highly doubt it would effectively make much of a difference for Jaeger Armor, because who would really use the MOP recon with constant ammo cost over the one time upgrade Spotting Scopes. We can always look for a new replacement for the AT Strafe anyway.

Camouflaged Paks would definitely be a bigger buff.
11 Apr 2021, 16:25 PM
#302
avatar of ltaustinpowers

Posts: 67 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2021, 13:45 PMVipper
Jaeger Armor Doctrine
Riegel Mine--->251 Mobile Observation Post
Recon Overflight
Spotting Scope
Stuka Anti-Tank Strafe
Elefant

One of the most popular commanders received another buff with merging Riegel with 251. The commander should be nerfed not buffed. On the other hand the commander has many recon option with Spotting scopes/overrflight/Flare from 251.

I would suggest again to instead of merging MOP with riegel and have a 2 mines available in the 251 to rename the ability "AT training" and allow PG to plant riegel and Pak to get passive cloak when stationary with no bonus and make the ability available to more commanders. As for Jaeger A it could get some low impact abilities.


I agree this doctrine has a lot of vision abilities, even more so with flares from MOP. Although I love the thought of being able to plant riegel mines with panzer grens, I feel that by itself is a buff and I don't think paks should be allowed to cloak.

Ultimately, this doctrine needs to be altered to make it less of an automatic selection when equipping commanders. Since it has so many vision options, I think recon overflight should be removed and replaced with something else. Unfortunately, that by itself may not even be enough to encourage players to consider an alternative commander as one of their three options.

A less decisive option would be removing recon and replacing with something less impactful, such as the model 24 stun grenades.

More drastic measures might include removing the stuka anti tank strafe and replacing with the anti infantry strafe. If more severe changes are made to this commander, then perhaps it would make sense to allow PGrens the ability to plant riegel mines (enabled as part of the MOP ability).
11 Apr 2021, 19:44 PM
#303
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11806 | Subs: 1



So you don't want to buff Jaeger Armor, but also want to buff Jaeger Armor? Pick one.

The MOP merge just coincidentally affects Jaeger Armor, it's primarily meant to make the other commanders that had the MOP or the Riegel more attractive by turning two decent but not outstanding abilities into one nice package. I highly doubt it would effectively make much of a difference for Jaeger Armor, because who would really use the MOP recon with constant ammo cost over the one time upgrade Spotting Scopes. We can always look for a new replacement for the AT Strafe anyway.

Camouflaged Paks would definitely be a bigger buff.


Maybe I was not clear enough. If "AT training" becomes a thing it should probably not be available to Jaeger armor and should be replaced by lower impact ability.

The should be some abilities that are weaker so that they fill slot in commander that have high pick rates.
11 Apr 2021, 19:51 PM
#304
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11806 | Subs: 1



I agree this doctrine has a lot of vision abilities, even more so with flares from MOP. Although I love the thought of being able to plant riegel mines with panzer grens, I feel that by itself is a buff and I don't think paks should be allowed to cloak.

Ultimately, this doctrine needs to be altered to make it less of an automatic selection when equipping commanders. Since it has so many vision options, I think recon overflight should be removed and replaced with something else. Unfortunately, that by itself may not even be enough to encourage players to consider an alternative commander as one of their three options.

A less decisive option would be removing recon and replacing with something less impactful, such as the model 24 stun grenades.

More drastic measures might include removing the stuka anti tank strafe and replacing with the anti infantry strafe. If more severe changes are made to this commander, then perhaps it would make sense to allow PGrens the ability to plant riegel mines (enabled as part of the MOP ability).

The Paks where able to cloak and it caused little issues and it would cause if less if they did not get any first strike bonuses.

But if such an ability become available it should probably not be available to Jaeger Armor and should probably be replaced by lower impact ability.

Stun grenades could be an option, tactical movement could be an option, relief infatry or sprint could also be an option.

12 Apr 2021, 04:06 AM
#305
avatar of Kyle

Posts: 313



So you don't want to buff Jaeger Armor, but also want to buff Jaeger Armor? Pick one.

The MOP merge just coincidentally affects Jaeger Armor, it's primarily meant to make the other commanders that had the MOP or the Riegel more attractive by turning two decent but not outstanding abilities into one nice package. I highly doubt it would effectively make much of a difference for Jaeger Armor, because who would really use the MOP recon with constant ammo cost over the one time upgrade Spotting Scopes. We can always look for a new replacement for the AT Strafe anyway.

Camouflaged Paks would definitely be a bigger buff.


Sander93, if possible can you and balance consider my ideal about 251 MOP's Flare reduced to 30muni and have the same range + visiblity as Soviet Mortar's flare?

Consider Ostheer is heavy muni faction for most upgrade, 30 muni flare might make it easier for us to use and favor it, right now if 50 we rather spend 60 to get recon airplane (consider if the enemy got no AA yet).

I really like the ideal of MOP but the flare cost is just too much right now :(
12 Apr 2021, 05:32 AM
#306
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 475

I agree that 3 recon options in Jaeger armor is bit too much (spotting scope, MOP, recon plane), once again I propose moving one of the abilities to Fortified armor, the other Elephant doctrine, in an attempt to make it a somewhat equally intersting pick.
Imo the MOP would fit in there as Fortified armor relies more around defensive play. It would replace panzer tactician.
As for the gap in Jaeger, it could be filled in with something that's more offensive to fit the theme, but rather situational. I'm thinking of either Counter attack tactics from MobiDef or Tactical advance.
12 Apr 2021, 08:10 AM
#307
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11806 | Subs: 1

Command Panzer IV:
Lower Pop to 10 same as ostwind
Lower XP value to 1790 same as ostwind (currently has more XP than normal PzIV)

Replace the weapon rotation bonus with something that increase the "commander" aspect of the unit. Either the abilities or the aura.

Increase close penetration of main gun from 55 to 100 (Valentine has 120/KV-8 has 140)


Officer:
Reduce reinforcement time to match grenadier

Add a weapon upgrade as vet bonus similar to Sturm officer/Commisar's (extra entity)

vet 2 23% received accuracy to -29% received accuracy to match assautl grenadier (they get 6.5% received accuracy at vet 1 also)

+40% range of smoke and coordinated barrages replaced by CD/MU cost bonuses on abilities.
12 Apr 2021, 08:41 AM
#308
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1661

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Apr 2021, 08:10 AMVipper
Command Panzer IV:
Lower Pop to 10 same as ostwind
Lower XP value to 1790 same as ostwind (currently has more XP than normal PzIV)

Replace the weapon rotation bonus with something that increase the "commander" aspect of the unit. Either the abilities or the aura.

Increase close penetration of main gun from 55 to 100 (Valentine has 120/KV-8 has 140)


Officer:
Reduce reinforcement time to match grenadier
Add a weapon upgrade as vet bonus similar to Sturm officer/Commisar's (extra entity)



imo a reduction in xp is enough, make it same as p4
12 Apr 2021, 08:43 AM
#309
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1661

I agree that 3 recon options in Jaeger armor is bit too much (spotting scope, MOP, recon plane), once again I propose moving one of the abilities to Fortified armor, the other Elephant doctrine, in an attempt to make it a somewhat equally intersting pick.
Imo the MOP would fit in there as Fortified armor relies more around defensive play. It would replace panzer tactician.
As for the gap in Jaeger, it could be filled in with something that's more offensive to fit the theme, but rather situational. I'm thinking of either Counter attack tactics from MobiDef or Tactical advance.


doesn't fortified already have recon planes and hull down increases sight?

im happy with keeping smoke in fortified
12 Apr 2021, 09:43 AM
#310
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 475

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Apr 2021, 08:43 AMmrgame2


doesn't fortified already have recon planes and hull down increases sight?

im happy with keeping smoke in fortified


Iirc hull down doesn't increase sight, only range and reload. So you have a very long range elephant that is blind.

But yeah, perhaps MOP should replace the recon plane then, it could both provide passive (camo it on the frontline) and active sight (flares). The doctrine lacks an off map arty anyway, so the recon plane isn't that integral.

Also, I would be really grateful if hull down had this range indicator implemented:
12 Apr 2021, 09:55 AM
#311
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1661

I be happy if hull down for ost remains as it is, needing infantry to build. In place, remove the extra seconds to be effective. It should be in brace mode, once infantry starts to hull down.

this way we have asymmetry between sov and ost hulldown.
12 Apr 2021, 09:56 AM
#312
avatar of Tetranet

Posts: 164

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Apr 2021, 08:10 AMVipper
Command Panzer IV:
Lower Pop to 10 same as ostwind
Lower XP value to 1790 same as ostwind (currently has more XP than normal PzIV)

Replace the weapon rotation bonus with something that increase the "commander" aspect of the unit. Either the abilities or the aura.

Increase close penetration of main gun from 55 to 100 (Valentine has 120/KV-8 has 140)


I agree, Command Panzer IV needs more work.

I agree that 3 recon options in Jaeger armor is bit too much (spotting scope, MOP, recon plane), once again I propose moving one of the abilities to Fortified armor, the other Elephant doctrine, in an attempt to make it a somewhat equally intersting pick.
Imo the MOP would fit in there as Fortified armor relies more around defensive play. It would replace panzer tactician.



Agreed. Mobile Observation Post feels like a better fit for Fortfied Armor, in place of Panzer Tactician, probably. Jaeger Armor is now overloaded with sight utility, and the scopes aren't even supposed to work with MOP on.


I think Sander mentioned Ambush Training for Jaeger Armor (like Jaeger Infantry) a few months ago, and I liked that idea. Fits the theme well and is low impact.
12 Apr 2021, 10:04 AM
#313
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 475

I think Sander mentioned Ambush Training for Jaeger Armor (like Jaeger Infantry) a few months ago, and I liked that idea. Fits the theme well and is low impact.


*Me who loves camo ambushes: rubs hands :)
12 Apr 2021, 17:22 PM
#314
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 3017 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Apr 2021, 09:55 AMmrgame2
I be happy if hull down for ost remains as it is, needing infantry to build. In place, remove the extra seconds to be effective. It should be in brace mode, once infantry starts to hull down.

this way we have asymmetry between sov and ost hulldown.


Soviets don't have hulldown.

There are only animations for the German tanks.
12 Apr 2021, 17:31 PM
#315
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 734



Soviets don't have hulldown.

There are only animations for the German tanks.


KW-1 has it with Vet1, it grants damage reduction and RoF.
12 Apr 2021, 19:43 PM
#316
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 3017 | Subs: 2



KW-1 has it with Vet1, it grants damage reduction and RoF.


Wait they added the same hull down for Ost for the KV1 only as a vet 1 ability or something?

Since when and with what animations exactly?
12 Apr 2021, 20:18 PM
#317
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11806 | Subs: 1



Wait they added the same hull down for Ost for the KV1 only as a vet 1 ability or something?

Since when and with what animations exactly?

The bonuses are not the same:
KV-1
Name: "Hull Down"
Duration: Toggle Ability
Cost: Free
+15% reload speed.
-20% received damage.
Vehicle can't move.

Ostheer
Name: "Hull Down"
Duration: None
Cost: Free
-25% received damage.
+25% weapon range.
Vehicle can't move.
12 Apr 2021, 20:20 PM
#318
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17414 | Subs: 8



Wait they added the same hull down for Ost for the KV1 only as a vet 1 ability or something?

Since when and with what animations exactly?

Since 2019.
Pip
12 Apr 2021, 21:00 PM
#319
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1294



Wait they added the same hull down for Ost for the KV1 only as a vet 1 ability or something?

Since when and with what animations exactly?


The KV1 has had the ability for some time, it's actually not too much of an issue to add "Hull Down" to any tank, from what i can surmise. The Animation isnt inherent in the vehicle, there seem to be some generic Sandbag bits that can be placed around an unit when it uses an ability. The same system is presumably used for things like the Major's Antenna, 223/Opel Blitz lockdown abilities, and other such abilities.
12 Apr 2021, 21:03 PM
#320
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3062 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Apr 2021, 21:00 PMPip
The KV1 has had the ability for some time, it's actually not too much of an issue to add "Hull Down" to any tank, from what i can surmise. The Animation isnt inherent in the vehicle, there seem to be some generic Sandbag bits that can be placed around an unit when it uses an ability.


As far as I know the sandbags profile is unique to the vehicle's hull and shape and you can't just add it to any vehicle without looking odd. The KV-1 just happened to have one of those profiles collecting dust in the files, made by Relic devs at some point but never used. All/most OKW vehicles have one too.
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