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Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

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11 Apr 2021, 01:22 AM
#281
avatar of ltaustinpowers

Posts: 67 | Subs: 1

Hey everyone, thanks for taking the time to read to this post.

First off, I want to say I appreciate the effort that is being put forth by the balance team to try and keep this game alive/fresh/balanced. I am not sure I agree with all of the changes but I think most of them are headed in the right direction (I am only speaking about Ostheer changes right now).

One of the things that I want to bring up is the amount of overlap between the original two factions and their multitude of commanders. This has been brought up before, one example is from Whiteflash's post here: https://www.coh2.org/topic/11064/commander-overlap-a-serious-problem

We have a number of unique abilities that are only in 1 or 2 commanders while Stuka Reconnaissance Overflight and Panzer Tactician worm their way into 6 different commanders! Luftwaffe Supply Doctrine had Recon Overflight removed and replaced with the Luftwaffe Field Officer. I am suggesting that we get Panzer Tactician and Recon Overflight down to 3 commanders each. This will help create better identities for different commanders.

Additionally, with the assistance of coh2stats.com, we can get an idea of what commanders are being equipped and which ones aren't. Some of these commanders aren't picked because their abilities are often found in other, BETTER, doctrines.

FunPolice alerted me to the fact that I overlooked something in the planned commander patch. As a result, I am striking through information no longer relevant. One other thing I want to suggest prior to getting into the Commanders, is combining two abilities. With the suggested removal of Riegel Mines from Storm, Riegel mines would only be found on one commander, just like Entrenching Tools. I suggest combining Riegel mines with Entrenching Tools into one ability.

Mobile Defense, Ostruppen, Luftwaffe Supply, Close Air Support, and Festung Armor are the least equipped Doctrines in team games (2v2, 3v3, and 4v4). Festung Armor is already being changed by the balance team so I don't think anything needs to be called out about it. I would also like to mention changes to Blitzkrieg and Fortified Armor. I see that Blitzkrieg is picked pretty often in 1v1s and a decent amount in 2v2s, but suggested changes might be worth considering. I have tried making all these changes based on the commander's theme and balance around it.

Blitzkrieg: The Blitzkrieg doctrine stressed combined operations; aircraft supporting armor which in turn should exploit breakthroughs won by infantry.

Remove Panzer Tactician and Recon Overflight. Replace with Breakthrough Equipment and Breakthrough.

Breakthrough Equipment provides pioneers a way to clear obstacles while PGrens are able to utilize smoke grenades. Breakthrough provides the opportunity for vehicles to move faster, capture points, and (assuming the proposed change is implemented) reload faster. Tactical Movement and Breakthrough would allow the Commander to have both its infantry and tanks push together at lightning speed, as the commander's name suggests.

Fortified Armor: Enhance the survivability of your tanks and vehicles; defensive smoke, the ability to go hull-down, and a Panzer IV Command Tank ensure your vehicles can live longer and fight harder, while aerial recon allow you to see threats and engage them at long range with the Elefant Heavy Tank Destroyer.

I suggest removing Panzer Tactician and replacing it with Entrenching Tools (now with Riegel). For a commander that is designed to be fortified, or entrenched, it make sense to include entrenching tools here. With the Elefant unable to position much while hulled down, I like the idea of being able to place Regal mines to help set traps for a hulled down Elefant.


Jaeger Armor: Find your enemy and attack them; Aerial reconnaissance and increased vision range on your tanks allows you to spot the enemy. Fix their position and smash them aside with Stuka Bombing Strikes and the deadly Elefant Heavy Tank Destroyer.

I honestly feel that the balance team indirectly BUFFED this commander with the removal of the Stuka Dive Bomb and its replacement with Ju-87 Anti-Tank Strafe. As a result, I don't think this commander should be able to recon for itself.

Convert Riegel Mine to Entrenching Tools. Remove Stuka Recon and replace with Model 24 Stun Grenades.

With this Commander already being the most equipped commander in team games by a WIDE margin, I feel that additional adjustments need to be made here. For consistency purposes, this commander would also get entrenching tools which unfortunately is a buff over just Riegel mines. However, I think swapping recon with the stun grenades is a way of balancing out that entrenching adjustment.

Mobile Defense: A commander reassigned from the western front, bringing the experience and tactics from the western theatre to the battle in the east. Use a number of mobile units in conjunction with a defensive strategy to quickly react to enemy breakthroughs.

I appreciate the removal of Ostruppen Reserves, the buff to Counterattack Tactics, and the quicker build time for Puma, but frankly, I don't believe those changes will be enough to justify using this doctrine.

Remove Panzer Tactician and replace with Assault Grenadiers.

I have read it many times here how people would like to see Ass Grens used in another doctrine, one without a Tiger. Ass Grens would be a perfect fit here as they are an agile infantry unit which would support the identity of this commander.

Ostruppen: Utilize Germany’s allies as support infantry to shore up defenses on the line. Combine these support infantry with experienced German Officers and resources to break enemy attacks and hold valuable ground.

Riegel mines are added to Entrenching tools.


Spearhead: Armor provides the spearhead, piercing enemy lines and driving deep into their territory. Tiger tanks absorb punishment and focus, while bombing destroys enemy defenses and 250/7 mortar half-tracks keep infantry at bay.

Remove Recon Overflight and replace with Break Supply Line.

Being able to neutralize strategic points prior to attacking them with the main force would be ideal for spearheading an assault.

Again, I appreciate anyone who read through these suggestions. I would be happy to take a look at the Soviet doctrines as well.
11 Apr 2021, 01:55 AM
#282
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 275

Loving the changes to Festung Armor Doctrine having access to a P4 Ausf J with the ability to use panzer tactician and hulldown is excellent. The buffs to the Pak43 is also nice because I feel like it wasn't very good before most of the time

Also love the changes to Storm Doctrine. I think the Jaeger Command Squad is a great addition

The pretty big nerf to the Elefant Doctrine with the spotting scopes is understandable, since it seems the community has been asking for this change for a long time. At least to compensate to a degree the doctrine gets access to the mobile observation post 250/1 halftrack, and the fact that it also has the ability to place riegel anti-tank mines is a very nice touch

I think this also helps compensate for the slight nerf to Mobile Defense Doctrine's counter attack tactics because at least now they have mobile observation post with riegel mines. But I am not sure I like that the Puma costs 5 command points, I feel that by that time you are preparing to use a Panzer 4 or StuG already

The changes to German Infantry's assault and hold I think are good changes, and cheaper upgrades for panzer grenadiers as well, lovely!

So far really liking most of the changes! Keep it up devs! Thanks
11 Apr 2021, 02:43 AM
#283
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 126


One other thing I want to suggest prior to getting into the Commanders, is combining two abilities. With the suggested removal of Riegel Mines from Storm, Riegel mines would only be found on one commander, just like Entrenching Tools. I suggest combining Riegel mines with Entrenching Tools into one ability.

Riegel mines actually got combined with Mobile Observation Post with the latest update.



Blitzkrieg: The Blitzkrieg doctrine stressed combined operations; aircraft supporting armor which in turn should exploit breakthroughs won by infantry.

Remove Panzer Tactician and Recon Overflight. Replace with Breakthrough Equipment and Breakthrough.

I think this is actually a pretty hefty nerf to a commander that doesn't really need many (if any) changes. Recon Flight and Panzer Tactician are really useful abilities to save vehicles and also just scout what the enemy is doing. I see blitzkrieg as the really tactical commander of the bunch. None of the abilities are super stand out but when all combined it gives a robust and versatile commander.


Fortified Armor:
I suggest removing Panzer Tactician and replacing it with Entrenching Tools (now with Riegel). For a commander that is designed to be fortified, or entrenched, it make sense to include entrenching tools here. With the Elefant unable to position much while hulled down, I like the idea of being able to place Regal mines to help set traps for a hulled down Elefant.

To me at least I always thought this commander was all about making your armor hard as hell to kill. Between the command panzer, the hull down, and panzer tactician it gave the commander a lot of ways to protect it's armor and just make it really hard to kill them. Imo the only issue with this guy after the changes are that jaeger armor still largely outclasses him (which is why I think that commander needs more nerfs).


Jaeger Armor:
I honestly feel that the balance team indirectly BUFFED this commander with the removal of the Stuka Dive Bomb and its replacement with Ju-87 Anti-Tank Strafe. As a result, I don't think this commander should be able to recon for itself.

Convert Riegel Mine to Entrenching Tools. Remove Stuka Recon and replace with Model 24 Stun Grenades.

Speaking of which... I largely agree with the reasoning as to why this commander needs more nerfs. Although personally I would look to just replace the AT strafe with some otherwise low impact effect. I think the recon isn't that big an issue except it's combined with powerful call ins which I think the are the bigger problem abilities. I mainly don't get the reasoning of adding entrenchment tools (which is unlikely to happen since mines are already in MOP now) and the stun grenades? Like this commander is all about messing up armor yet these abilities are more tuned to making your infantry stronger. If possible I think something more thematic should be attempted before anything really strange like that happens.


Mobile Defense:
I appreciate the removal of Ostruppen Reserves, the buff to Counterattack Tactics, and the quicker build time for Puma, but frankly, I don't believe those changes will be enough to justify using this doctrine.

Remove Panzer Tactician and replace with Assault Grenadiers.

I have read it many times here how people would like to see Ass Grens used in another doctrine, one without a Tiger. Ass Grens would be a perfect fit here as they are an agile infantry unit which would support the identity of this commander.

This seems like a neat idea that could be interesting to at least try out. I think one of the bigger issues is still the puma timing but dropping panzer tact might allow it to come out a little faster (like say it goes to 4 CP). I would be interested in trying that change out.


Ostruppen:
Riegel mines are added to Entrenching tools.

As said elsewhere the mines are already with the MOP now.


Spearhead:
Remove Recon Overflight and replace with Break Supply Line.

Being able to neutralize strategic points prior to attacking them with the main force would be ideal for spearheading an assault.

I don't know if you intended this but that change would be a pretty big nerf to the commander rather than a buff. The recon is a super important because of the combo with frag bombs which is simply amazing in the commander. Break Supply Line is really niche in it's effect so this would be a pretty massive nerf to the commander which at least seems like it isn't the intention based on how it's explained.
11 Apr 2021, 02:48 AM
#284
avatar of Chukiki

Posts: 112

buff ostwinds anti infantry damage
11 Apr 2021, 03:29 AM
#285
avatar of ltaustinpowers

Posts: 67 | Subs: 1

Thanks for the reply FunPolice. I somehow overlooked the fact that Riegel mines were being merged with the mobile observation post. With that being said, I will edit my original post shortly and remove the suggestion on merging Riegel mines with Entrenching tools.

As far as Spearhead and Blitzkrieg are concerned, I am not trying to buff them or nerf them really. I am trying to make them more unique and interesting. I see that Spearhead is the only Tiger doctrine with Recon or Panzer Tactician...maybe my suggestion here isn't warranted.

I still like modifying Blitzkrieg. Panzer Tactician, Recon Overflight, and Command PIV are shared between 2 doctrines currently and additionally, Panzer Tact + Command PIV are in mobile defensive. Perhaps rather than removing both Panzer Tactician and Recon, leave Panzer Tactician or Recon, and then replacing the remaining ability with Breakthrough. The command PIV will have a smoke shell so if Panzer Tactician is removed, their is still some availability of smoke for defensive purposes.
11 Apr 2021, 04:44 AM
#286
avatar of Kyle

Posts: 313

Please lower the MOP's Flare cost 30, make it the same range / visibility as Soviet Mortar's Flare or the JCS's flare.

50 is too much, I rather use my Recon Flight for 60 muni in order to reveal sniper too.....

11 Apr 2021, 05:39 AM
#287
avatar of Tetranet

Posts: 164

Any chance the description on Fortified Armor can be rectified?





I would change it to:

Enhance the survivability of your tanks and vehicles; defensive smoke, the ability to hull-down and a Panzer IV Command Tank ensure your vehicles can live longer and fight harder, while aerial reconnaissance allows you to see threats and engage them at long range with the Elefant Heavy Tank Destroyer.

11 Apr 2021, 08:35 AM
#288
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 827 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2021, 01:55 AMLewka
Loving the changes to Festung Armor Doctrine having access to a P4 Ausf J with the ability to use panzer tactician and hulldown is excellent. The buffs to the Pak43 is also nice because I feel like it wasn't very good before most of the time

Also love the changes to Storm Doctrine. I think the Jaeger Command Squad is a great addition.
[...]
So far really liking most of the changes! Keep it up devs! Thanks


+1
Good post which I support 100%. The work on Soviets and OH is really impressive but it seems to me that the 3 other factions need a little bit more love and time. I would use the first weeks to fine tune the vanilla faction commander pools and then invest more in the 3 other factions.
11 Apr 2021, 09:13 AM
#289
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 598

Can we fix CAS please?


Stuka Reconnaissance Pass --> New Luftwaffe officer

Supply Drop Zone --> Supply Drop from Osttroopen commander

Stuka JU-87D Anti-Infantry Strafe --> Stuka Strafing Run from Ass.support, because this ability is in a single commander.

Stuka JU-87 Anti-Tank Strafe --> un-changed

Stuka JU-87D Bombing Strike --> Stuka Fragmentation Bombing

Or maybe something else.

Feels kinda off that after such massinve commander revork, CAS and Encirclement are left completly.
11 Apr 2021, 09:40 AM
#290
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1662

The only thing CAS need is slower plane speed in Recon Pass, nothing else.
11 Apr 2021, 09:47 AM
#291
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11806 | Subs: 1

The only thing CAS need is slower plane speed in Recon Pass, nothing else.

The commander has one of lowest picks rates across all modes.
11 Apr 2021, 09:53 AM
#292
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 275

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2021, 08:35 AMSmartie


+1
Good post which I support 100%. The work on Soviets and OH is really impressive but it seems to me that the 3 other factions need a little bit more love and time. I would use the first weeks to fine tune the vanilla faction commander pools and then invest more in the 3 other factions.

Thanks :) and yes more attention to the other 3 factions being needed is understandable. And I agree that Soviet and OH definitely did need the attention on the older commanders especially
11 Apr 2021, 09:58 AM
#293
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 275

Any chance the description on Fortified Armor can be rectified?





I would change it to:




I agree, I actually made a post last night in the bug section of the forums saying a lot of commanders need adjustments made to their descriptions because they were very out of date

Can we fix CAS please?


Stuka Reconnaissance Pass --> New Luftwaffe officer

Supply Drop Zone --> Supply Drop from Osttroopen commander

Stuka JU-87D Anti-Infantry Strafe --> Stuka Strafing Run from Ass.support, because this ability is in a single commander.

Stuka JU-87 Anti-Tank Strafe --> un-changed

Stuka JU-87D Bombing Strike --> Stuka Fragmentation Bombing

Or maybe something else.

Feels kinda off that after such massinve commander revork, CAS and Encirclement are left completly.

I agree about CAS, however encirclement did get some adjustments made to the vehicle territory capture ability. Although maybe you saw that and are wanting more changes. idk
11 Apr 2021, 10:10 AM
#294
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 598

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2021, 09:58 AMLewka

I agree about CAS, however encirclement did get some adjustments made to the vehicle territory capture ability. Although maybe you saw that and are wanting more changes. idk


I did see it, but point is all commanders have a value. In other words, for example OKW luftwaffe commander. This commander oveall was objectively very weak in terms of its abilities, only Fallshims and Valliant assault, are so good, that it was worth picking commander just because of them.

Encirclement main ability is Close the pocket. Thats it, outside of this ability, this commander is garbo. You have camo in much better commanders, you have stormtroopers in better commanders.

Breakthought and Break Supply Line are both made to work towards CTP, they objectively have no value outside of it.

You wont be able to do it, against even bad player who know how it works on the best map possible for it, simply because caches counters this commander completly.

In other words, aside from being a meme against players who fucked up, there is no reason to play with it.
11 Apr 2021, 10:33 AM
#295
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 275

I did not think about it that way. And to go on with your point, I am never certain I want to use this Doctrine because I also prefer use of Stormtroopers and camo from other Doctrines. I also didn't realize you cannot use break supply lines if there is a cache. I think if it could be used on territories with a cache it would be a lot stronger.
11 Apr 2021, 11:42 AM
#296
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11806 | Subs: 1

This is polarity (score in load out)of Ostheer across all mode:
(each commander get a score according to how popular they are in each mod the number are added and then dived by 4)

Spearhead Doctrine 20
Jaeger Armour Doctrine 19.5
Elite Troops Doctrine 18
Jaeger Infantry Doctrine 18
German Infantry Doctrine 17
Storm Doctrine 16.5
Strategic Reserves Doctrine 16.5
German Mechanized Doctrine 16
Mechanized assault Doctrine 14
Assault Support Doctrine 13
Joint Operations Doctrine 12.75
Lightning War Doctrine 11
Festung Support Doctrine 10
Blitzkrieg Doctrine 8.75
Fortified Armor Doctrine 8.75
Encirclement Doctrine 7
Defensive Doctrine 6.75
Festung Armour Doctrine 5.25
Osttruppen doctrine 4.75
Close Air Support Doctrine 3.25
Mobile Defense Doctrine 3.25
Luftwaffe Supply Doctrine 3
11 Apr 2021, 11:46 AM
#297
avatar of Stark

Posts: 618 | Subs: 1

Encirclement will probably not be change much expect breakthrough. Commander itself is design around last ability and without huge reshuffle abilities and their performance i don't see any window. Probably it will stay as it is.

CAS on the other hand is generally a fine commander. All his abilities are in good spot from performance perspective.
1. Stuka dive bomb great to kill arty spam. After it was removed from elefant commander it's left only in 2 commanders. It should stay
2. CAS single pass - great to deal with tanks, or rocket arty behind lines.
3. AI pass - great to deal with blobs. Very underused
4. Supply drop - after removing it from Lufftwaffe it's the only commander with this ability. It helps to gather more ammo for other abilities
5. Recon - removing it from a commander would be a huge nerf because it combines great with AT strafe and stuka dive bomb

Officer was added only in a luffwafe commander and we don't really plan to move also to CAS. Officer also has a AI pass as his ability so we would have to replace it. Don't see a need to do that if i'm gonna be honest. Commander recently is rarely used but in my opinion I don't see him as anyway weak or in need of total revamp or any swaps. Need some skill and prediction to call those abilities but if you time it correctly i can highly pay back.


Fortify armour doctrine will be looked into because combination of hull down and command p4 aura is very very potent.
11 Apr 2021, 11:50 AM
#298
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11806 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2021, 11:46 AMStark


CAS is in bottom 3 commander when it comes to popularity with a very low score. It doing bad in 1vs1 it pick some places in large mode but it way below average.
Check post 296

The abilities bight be ok on their own but combined they are not.

As for fortified armor score allot lower than jaeger even in 1v1.
11 Apr 2021, 12:03 PM
#299
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 598

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2021, 11:46 AMStark
Encirclement will probably not be change much expect breakthrough. Commander itself is design around last ability and without huge reshuffle abilities and their performance i don't see any window. Probably it will stay as it is.

This commander just need Breakthrough to be a bit more generalistic ability, Break Supply Line to be reshuffled with something and CTP to be remade into more generalistic strong late game arty. Thats pretty much it, commander has some potentual, but it always will be useless if it remain situational.

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2021, 11:46 AMStark

CAS on the other hand is generally a fine commander. All his abilities are in good spot from performance perspective.

Its a fine commander, but almost all soviets and ost commanders were "fine" before commander patch. I mean, isnt this whole point of the patch to make commanders more diverse, usefull and actually have a reson to pick one over the other.

Also arent all resource dropping abilities being removed because of how cheesy they are and how they are able to break teamgames to begin with?

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2021, 11:46 AMStark

Officer was added only in a luffwafe commander and we don't really plan to move also to CAS. Officer also has a AI pass as his ability so we would have to replace it. Don't see a need to do that if i'm gonna be honest.

Why not? Commisar was moved to soviet reserve, while he was made mainly for the NKVD. There is nothing wrong with it. Not to mention, as I said AI pass could always be replaced with Stuka Strafing Run, since it fits the theme and also only in 1 commander.

We already have Jaeger Armor with MOP, Recon and Spotting scopes, 3 abilities which arguably overlap each other a bit since all of them are focused on recon.
11 Apr 2021, 13:45 PM
#300
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11806 | Subs: 1

The change so far:

Festung Armor Doctrine

Panzer Tactician
Hull down
Command p4--->Panzer IV Ausf. J
Pak 43
Railway Artillery

The commander seem to score very low in 1vs1 and bellow average in team games the change will might help in 1vs1 but will not really help in large modes.

One can consider replacing or redesigning Railway artillery.

At least the overlap with Festung Support Doctrine is reduced.

Festung Support Doctrine
Mortar HT
Stuka Smoke Bombs--->Forward Resupply Station (new)
Relief infantry
LeFH 18--->Command Panzer IV
Sector Artillery

The commander score low in 1vs1 and pick some places in large modes probably due to LeFH. Removing the Lefh will probably condemn the commander to oblivion since the repair station are not enough to carry a commander (see defensive commander) and there better commander with C.PzIV.

The change will probably do little for 1vs1 and will probably remove the commander form large mod.

German Mechanized Doctrine
Mechanized Grenadier Group-->250/1 Halftrack
Stuka Smoke Bombs
Spotting Scope
Command Panzer IV
LeFH 18--->Vehicle crew repairs

The commander is above average in pick. The 250/1/vehicle crew reapirs change might improve the commander 1vs1 but removing LeFH will probably will remove the commander completely from 2v2 and above. The commander lack off maps, heavy tanks, superiority in infantries and spotting scopes with their complete static nature are enough to carry the commander.

Jaeger Armor Doctrine
Riegel Mine--->251 Mobile Observation Post
Recon Overflight
Spotting Scope
Stuka Anti-Tank Strafe
Elefant

One of the most popular commanders received another buff with merging Riegel with 251. The commander should be nerfed not buffed. On the other hand the commander has many recon option with Spotting scopes/overrflight/Flare from 251.

I would suggest again to instead of merging MOP with riegel and have a 2 mines available in the 251 to rename the ability "AT training" and allow PG to plant riegel and Pak to get passive cloak when stationary with no bonus and make the ability available to more commanders. As for Jaeger A it could get some low impact abilities.

Storm Doctrine

Ambush Camouflage
Riegel Mine--->Jaeger Command Squad
Stuka Smoke Bombs
LeFH 18
Stuka Dive Bomb

Another very popular commander getting a buff. The commander is very popular in large modes and about to get even more popular since there will be less commanders with LeFH. The addition of Jaeger command Squad will probably even increase the popularity in 1vs1.

Can the jaeger Command Squad upgrade with "ambush camouflage" (I did not check and now I changed versions)?


Worth mentioning is that Jaeger Infantry Doctrine which is very popular also received a "sort" of buff with the change to G43 for grenadier.
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