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Commander Update Beta 2021 - General Feedback

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16 Jun 2021, 13:34 PM
#321
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13091 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jun 2021, 13:13 PMKasarov

....
My primary point is this:

In my opinion, the Soviets had enough common sense to rally around an officer without the use of Order 227, and the inclusion of 227 in the justification of something so basic as an FRP implies that the Soviets did not have such common sense, which promotes negative stereotypes in one way or another and ultimately disrespects those who have died in the war and the few veterans alive today.

Regardless of how brave Soviet troops were, Stalin did demonstrated how little he cared for other peoples lives in many occasion.

"Negative" stereotype should be aiming at Stalin and not the troops.
16 Jun 2021, 14:24 PM
#322
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2000 | Subs: 2



You don't really seem to understand chain of command very well. Yes, you are superior to the comissar and the troops, but the troops report to the commissar. The soldiers do not answer directly to you, that is a construct of the video game. In real life, orders are disseminated from the top of the rank structure down to the bottom. The commanding general of an army is not going to tell a squad of infantrymen to retreat, that's the job of their squad leader.

You, as the commander, are effectively issuing an order to the commissar that he is not to allow a retreat past his position. Where he stands is the line drawn in the sand. It is his responsibility to make sure that his troops do not retreat past his position.

And yes, it is completely fine to give a commissar a forward retreat point with the idea that it is to represent order 227, because faction flavor has always been a thing.

Why do soviets have 6-7 man squads while OST has 4-5? Why do the americans use a literal ambulance to apparate soldiers out of thin air? Why do the British engineers build bofors with nothing but the rucks on their backs?

These things are gamey and not meant to be taken so seriously.

So to recap, orders are disseminated down from higher ranking officers to the lower, the commanding general does not give orders to soldiers, this is a construct of a video game. A forward retreat point for the comissar being explained as relating to Order 227 is fine because faction flavor has always been a thing. And I am hungry and I'm going to eat breakfast now. Good day.


As it was correctly noted, the commissioner is not an officer who gives orders to the soldiers. Although this could happen. Depends on the unit and the commissar. It was only when the commissars were abolished in 1942, only 30% of the 122 thousand commissars were immediately appointed to command positions. The rest were sent to various command courses, because commissars are not officers. And people looking after discipline, morality and engaged in political agitation.
16 Jun 2021, 14:48 PM
#323
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 608



You don't really seem to understand chain of command very well. Yes, you are superior to the comissar and the troops, but the troops report to the commissar. The soldiers do not answer directly to you, that is a construct of the video game. In real life, orders are disseminated from the top of the rank structure down to the bottom. The commanding general of an army is not going to tell a squad of infantrymen to retreat, that's the job of their squad leader.

You, as the commander, are effectively issuing an order to the commissar that he is not to allow a retreat past his position. Where he stands is the line drawn in the sand. It is his responsibility to make sure that his troops do not retreat past his position.

And yes, it is completely fine to give a commissar a forward retreat point with the idea that it is to represent order 227, because faction flavor has always been a thing.

Why do soviets have 6-7 man squads while OST has 4-5? Why do the americans use a literal ambulance to apparate soldiers out of thin air? Why do the British engineers build bofors with nothing but the rucks on their backs?

These things are gamey and not meant to be taken so seriously.

So to recap, orders are disseminated down from higher ranking officers to the lower, the commanding general does not give orders to soldiers, this is a construct of a video game. A forward retreat point for the comissar being explained as relating to Order 227 is fine because faction flavor has always been a thing. And I am hungry and I'm going to eat breakfast now. Good day.



Agreed 100%. COH 2 is a video game which is loosely based on World War 2. The Commissar having FRP based on Order 227 would fit the theme of the unit very well even if it may or may not be 100% accurate as COH 2 is not a WW 2 simulator. If it was Whermacht would be making 1 Panther to take on 500 Shermans/T-34s and it wouldn't be a fun experience nor balanced.

Also The commissar held military rank equaling the unit commander to whom he was attached; moreover, the commissar also had the military authority to countermand the unit commander’s orders at any time. It fits the unit fine. Kasarov is basically a Karen that needs a safe space because he is obviously triggered over a video game which is not even close to being historically accurate. German Units do not wear Swastikas on any of the uniforms (replaced with Iron Cross and also most of the Uniforms in game are slightly inaccurate - Also needing to meet market regulations to have the game be sold) yet you do not see anyone having a melt down over it like Kasarov is with "Not One Step Back".



jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jun 2021, 13:34 PMVipper

Regardless of how brave Soviet troops were, Stalin did demonstrated how little he cared for other peoples lives in many occasion.

"Negative" stereotype should be aiming at Stalin and not the troops.



Agree with you here Vipper. Especially since Stalin was well known for committing crimes (purges) against his own people that make the Holocaust look meager (all crimes against humanity are terrible regardless of scale) in comparison. Anyway apologies for going a bit off topic there.

The Point is Soviets should have more access to FRPs and the Commissar would be a good candidate for that. Whermacht could also use some FRP love as well wether it be through an officer or retreat bunker it doesn't matter what flavor is chosen as long as it fits thematically with said theme/commander/faction.

It would be nice also if OKW could make additional Battlegroup Headquarters considering British with extra manpower can build numerous across the map.



16 Jun 2021, 15:24 PM
#324
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 587

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jun 2021, 13:13 PMKasarov


Kek. The commissar in the Red Army structure is a political officer, not a military officer, and had little to no tactical training. The commissar is equivalent to a Military Police commissioned officer and is definitely not who soldiers report to in battle;


Sure, but it doesn't detract from my statement. If comissars are the equivalent of Military Police, then it would also fall upon them to prevent soldiers from breaking orders and deserting, yes? Also, it's not like comissars had no authority to lead troops: "The political commissar held military rank equaling the unit commander to whom he was attached; moreover, the commissar also had the military authority to countermand the unit commander’s orders at any time." (I.E. an order to retreat that would break Order 227) That's according to Wikipedia. Please correct it if that is incorrect.

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jun 2021, 13:13 PMKasarov
How I have interpreted the gamification it is that you, the player, are the rank structure and you, the player, thus represent the various officers that pass the order along and the guy talking back/taking orders is the squad leader. And by representing the whole command chain itself, you interact with squad leaders which then act on your behalf, in which everything proceeds in an orderly faction.


The game is all over the place as far as this goes. Supposedly you're commanding "squad" sized elements (which are really team sized, as far as a US army equivalent) so assumedly you're a platoon leader, but then playing as USF you not only give commands to a Lieutenant (who would be the same rank as you as a platoon leader), but to a Captain (above your rank) and even a Major! (Who generally doesn't lead troops but still outranks a platoon leader.) And not even to mention that the announcer refers to Penals as Penal Battalion sometimes. I mean maybe battalion is a smaller group in the Soviet army but again, it just goes to show that things are a bit goofy in the game.

Either way, it seems that what you're saying is that each squad receives orders from their next higher up on the chain of command. I think that makes sense.

But that means that the "squad" is receiving orders to retreat from their unit commander, and assuming that the commissar squad is attached to that unit, he would be the same rank as the unit commander. Meaning that he receives commands from higher than the unit commander.

Therefore, it would be like the commissar receiving word from the commander that the soldiers are to occupy a certain strategic point. Order 227, as I understand it, is to prevent retreats from a certain area without authorization from higher up. In that case, it doesn't matter if it's an "organized retreat" ordered by the unit commander if it will desert the objective that commander wanted held.

From what I understood in the video, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the commissars were involved in discipline and did in fact make sure that nobody retreated past a certain point, because that would fall under breaking discipline and Order 227. Of course, it was not always by shooting at the soldiers, and certainly not to the scale depicted by some hollywood movies, but it did happen nonetheless.

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jun 2021, 13:13 PMKasarov
My primary point is this:

In my opinion, the Soviets had enough common sense to rally around an officer without the use of Order 227, and the inclusion of 227 in the justification of something so basic as an FRP implies that the Soviets did not have such common sense, which promotes negative stereotypes in one way or another and ultimately disrespects those who have died in the war and the few veterans alive today.


And I disagree that it promotes stereotypes, especially if it simply acts as a forward retreat point. In that case it's even breaking a stereotype that the campaign has set previously.

Also, I never said that Soviets were too stupid to rally around an officer or anything of the sort. The whole point is not that "In order for Soviets to recieve FRP we must talk about Order 227". It's that it would make sense in the context of the unit.

If the soviets had a unit like the USF Major or something like that, the whole Order 227 justification would be unnecessary, but it fits with the Commissar because as you yourself had said; the commissar is not a leader of troops but instead is concerned with enforcing discipline among the ranks.

Such a depiction of Order 227 is anything but stereotypical and if anything is more authentic than the way the campaign depicts it.
16 Jun 2021, 15:29 PM
#325
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 587

snip


+1
16 Jun 2021, 15:47 PM
#326
avatar of Osinyagov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1375

There is no place for order 227 in the mp in any way. Phrases like “Not one step back”, “fight till the last soldier/bullet/piece of blood” is all just war screams, like “Ura!”. If you see them somewhere, it doesn’t mean somebody meant Order 227.

If you want to have FRP, just add FRP, no need to do excess non-thematical manipulations to make it looks like usage of order 227. There can’t be any unintended retreats in the game, excess effect from fear propaganda or abilities like that, but still it’s pretty rare thing.
16 Jun 2021, 15:51 PM
#327
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 587

16 Jun 2021, 16:39 PM
#328
16 Jun 2021, 16:41 PM
#329
16 Jun 2021, 17:05 PM
#330
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 306

Well with all that said I think people have most of their opinions clear about the beta at this point, yes? So maybe patch is soon?
16 Jun 2021, 17:16 PM
#331
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 587



In 1941, during the battle for Moscow, Hitler issued a Stop-Order, barring retreat and creating penal units.
Something I do not see that the thematic of this episode and the use in the game were discussed here.


Take it up with the balance team and ask them to add german penal squads and commissar equivalents, not me.



As i said, “Not a step back!” As warscream was used before this order, during this order, and even after that. No direct connection with this order.


But you're trying to tell me that the order was not known as the "Not a Step Back!" order? Also, I fail to see what this has to do with the argument that Kasarov and I were having.
16 Jun 2021, 17:19 PM
#332
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 949 | Subs: 1

Alright use common sence here

1) In MP you are in full control of the army you have at your disposal.
2) Retreating in MP is regrouping at the frontline HQ. Desertion\Unauthorised retreat would be squads running off-map.
3) When you retreat squads, you give them an order to retreat and regroup. Otherwise if you dont give them an order to reatreat they will fight to the last model alive and squad will be wiped. You can even roleplay as a mad commisar\gruppenfuhrer who disalow any kind of retreating. Thats why all the fanatics of the regimes are located past 1000 rank.
4) In campaing 227 showing the commisars killing retreating soldiers, not only it was stupid looking but also you are not in full controll of your army, so at least it somewhat justified. You are playing from the perspective of the main hero, who was commanding soldiers under him, but he wasnt the one in full command.

---
In any case what is this stupid aurgument anyway?
16 Jun 2021, 18:06 PM
#333
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 587

Alright use common sence here

1) In MP you are in full control of the army you have at your disposal.


Yes, and we have already established how that's a construct of the video game, and in real life these squads would be recieving orders from their superiors, passed down to them by their own superiors, and so on. So any argument about how "you are in full control" only works from a gameplay perspective and has nothing to do with the authenticity or plausibility of what we're talking about.

2) Retreating in MP is regrouping at the frontline HQ. Desertion\Unauthorised retreat would be squads running off-map.


A retreat is a retreat is a retreat. Considering that maps are composed of points of strategic interest like towns or factories, it's not impossible that troops can be assigned it as their post, even if the HQ is somewhere behind them. And no, desertion is leaving your assigned post. And a soldiers post can be a pile of sandbags if that's what their commander wants.


3) When you retreat squads, you give them an order to retreat and regroup...


Yes, and who is "you" exactly? It's funny that you mention that because we've already discussed it like three posts before. That's what they're there for, for reading.

I'm not going to repeat myself because it was long and lengthy but you're welcome to read it in its entirety a half a scrollwheel's length above.

4) In campaing...


Nothing to reapond to here.

We're talking multiplayer not campaign.

In any case what is this stupid aurgument anyway?


Someone mentioned that the Commissar squad could recieve a forward retreat point, and that it made sense because "Order 227 was a thing", and Kasarov took umbrage to that.

I've just been arguing that it's neither a stereotypical depiction of order 227 nor is it somehow completely historically inaccurate.
16 Jun 2021, 18:10 PM
#334
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 306

No getting involved in the argument. However I just noticed not much being said about balance feedback as of late besides like penals discussions and vickers hmg

Wondering if delay with patch still has to do with Microsoft?
16 Jun 2021, 18:23 PM
#335
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 587

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jun 2021, 18:10 PMLewka
No getting involved in the argument. However I just noticed not much being said about balance feedback as of late besides like penals discussions and vickers hmg

Wondering if delay with patch still has to do with Microsoft?


I'm just still wondering what people were talking about in the shoutbox one day. I'm guessing that the balance team is trying to reach out to microsoft so that they can update the game pass version so PC and Game pass can play together again?
16 Jun 2021, 18:52 PM
#336
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2000 | Subs: 2



Yes, and we have already established how that's a construct of the video game, and in real life these squads would be recieving orders from their superiors, passed down to them by their own superiors, and so on. So any argument about how "you are in full control" only works from a gameplay perspective and has nothing to do with the authenticity or plausibility of what we're talking about.



A retreat is a retreat is a retreat. Considering that maps are composed of points of strategic interest like towns or factories, it's not impossible that troops can be assigned it as their post, even if the HQ is somewhere behind them. And no, desertion is leaving your assigned post. And a soldiers post can be a pile of sandbags if that's what their commander wants.




Yes, and who is "you" exactly? It's funny that you mention that because we've already discussed it like three posts before. That's what they're there for, for reading.

I'm not going to repeat myself because it was long and lengthy but you're welcome to read it in its entirety a half a scrollwheel's length above.



Nothing to reapond to here.

We're talking multiplayer not campaign.



Someone mentioned that the Commissar squad could recieve a forward retreat point, and that it made sense because "Order 227 was a thing", and Kasarov took umbrage to that.

I've just been arguing that it's neither a stereotypical depiction of order 227 nor is it somehow completely historically inaccurate.


Kasarov rightly noted that your proposal that the Commissioner and Order 227 are in no way substantiated, not thematic and do not make sense as a FRP. The game equivalent to commissar is to inspire the soldiers and remove the machine gun suppression. For clarity, the famous photo "Battalion Commander". It captures the junior political instructor A.G. Eremenko, who raised the pinned soldiers to attack and was immediately killed.
16 Jun 2021, 18:54 PM
#337
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 306



I'm just still wondering what people were talking about in the shoutbox one day. I'm guessing that the balance team is trying to reach out to microsoft so that they can update the game pass version so PC and Game pass can play together again?


That was similar to what I was thinking. Some issue like that I guess?
16 Jun 2021, 19:05 PM
#338
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 587

..The game equivalent to commissar is to inspire the soldiers and remove the machine gun suppression...


You know, I'm open to a lot of things, but I really doubt that life with the commissar was sunshine and puppydogs. Unless you're trying to tell me that the wikipedia page on the Soviet commissars is inaccurate and they actually weren't enforcers of political ideology and effectively military police troops.

Now I have no trouble beleiving that Soviet officers in general were brave and could rally their troops to arms. But the commissars have already been established as not leading troops personally. Have I been misled?
16 Jun 2021, 19:12 PM
#339
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2000 | Subs: 2



You know, I'm open to a lot of things, but I really doubt that life with the commissar was sunshine and puppydogs. Unless you're trying to tell me that the wikipedia page on the Soviet commissars is inaccurate and they actually weren't enforcers of political ideology and effectively military police troops.

Now I have no trouble beleiving that Soviet officers in general were brave and could rally their troops to arms. But the commissars have already been established as not leading troops personally. Have I been misled?


Commissars should not personally command the soldiers, there are officers for this. But you must understand that officers very often died in attacks and often the commissars remained the only officers (although in fact they were not and often did not have officer training, as I already cited the data when disbanding, only 30% of commissars had officer skills) had to inspire the soldiers to attacks. Due to the large officer losses, the commissars were dismantled and sent to officer training, because officers were more in demand than political agitation, and the officer took on moral issues.
16 Jun 2021, 23:36 PM
#340
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 421 | Subs: 2


Kasarov is basically a Karen that needs a safe space because he is obviously triggered over a video game which is not even close to being historically accurate. German Units do not wear Swastikas on any of the uniforms (replaced with Iron Cross and also most of the Uniforms in game are slightly inaccurate - Also needing to meet market regulations to have the game be sold) yet you do not see anyone having a melt down over it like Kasarov is with "Not One Step Back".

Oh no, you revealed my true identity! How prudent of you to resort to ad hominem, which adds such credibility to your argument and contributes to the discussion in a meaningful manner! /s

Multiple Russians have agreed with me that using 227 as a justification for FRP is distasteful and unnecessary. Not sure why you're so eager to attack me for voicing my opinion.

I have offered multiple points of disengagement where we can agree to disagree, but as these were not taken I am fully within my rights to further explain my position.

I can see now where don is coming from thanks to the lengthy conversation and I can respectfully disagree. Respectful disagreement could be a skill you might wish to develop in the future.


The Point is Soviets should have more access to FRPs and the Commissar would be a good candidate for that.

Nobody involved disagrees with this. We disagree over its justification and its potential theming.
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