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UKF have too many abilities by default.

6 Apr 2021, 11:02 AM
#21
avatar of NorthWeapon
Donator 11

Posts: 593

Maybe they were designed like that. Learn to play against it. All factions aren't the same, this isn't Starcraft.

This is an assymetrical game and UKF has strengths and Ostheer has strengths
6 Apr 2021, 16:09 PM
#22
avatar of 1st. Fallschirmjäger

Posts: 67

Maybe they were designed like that. Learn to play against it. All factions aren't the same, this isn't Starcraft.

This is an assymetrical game and UKF has strengths and Ostheer has strengths


In starcraft the factions are not the same, you have the terrans,zerg and protoss you too have a assymetrical game in it even more so than Coh2 i would say, so i really don't get your point here. Also about learning how to play : sure i can understand this argument up to a certain point say i can't counter a panzerschreck/zook blob and i should learn to play.

But my point was about utilities, and really that should be looked because you can say assymetrical game all you want, but the UKF is the outlier in that regard(abilitie wise) and really i am not saying nerf it to the ground but i think most people would agree that UKF is not in a good place right now and could use a rework how that is to be done i don't know but i like to discuss nonetheless.
6 Apr 2021, 17:47 PM
#23
avatar of DerKuhlmann

Posts: 453

Brits are like taking the best from all factions and just making it better.

There is a reason when you ask top streamers if they wanna play double brit in 2v2 and they just laugh ironically, cause they now brits are easy cake outside of 1v1
6 Apr 2021, 17:50 PM
#24
avatar of Tygrys

Posts: 103

Brits are like taking the best from all factions and just making it better.


I don't even know where to begin with how retarded this statement is.
6 Apr 2021, 17:51 PM
#25
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

Brits are like taking the best from all factions and just making it better.

There is a reason when you ask top streamers if they wanna play double brit in 2v2 and they just laugh ironically, cause they now brits are easy cake outside of 1v1

While you're at it, ask them why they don't want to play brits in 1v1 and why they avoid playing brits in tournaments like it was going to cut their lifespan in half.
6 Apr 2021, 18:00 PM
#26
avatar of DerKuhlmann

Posts: 453

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2021, 17:50 PMTygrys


I don't even know where to begin with how retarded this statement is.



Let see
churchill- better ultity than kv1
Comet- better utility than Panther
Uc- better than soviet scout car.
Vickers mg, better than osther mg32, in my opinion, due to better dps
Mortar pit, double range of normal mortars, brace, he barrage
Bofor- better than bunkers, brace
Firefly- better than usf tank destroyer, it can stun and selfspot
Infantry sections > every other infantry
Engineer 2 lmgs or piat + snares. better than other engineers?
AT emplacement, bettter than ostheer pak40, can brace.


Now come with your dumb reply saying im just a dumb boy or maybe be a grown up and discuss?



6 Apr 2021, 18:02 PM
#27
avatar of DerKuhlmann

Posts: 453


While you're at it, ask them why they don't want to play brits in 1v1 and why they avoid playing brits in tournaments like it was going to cut their lifespan in half.


Because brits are like ostheer, counter them good and they fall into dust.
6 Apr 2021, 18:11 PM
#28
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



Because brits are like ostheer, counter them good and they fall into dust.

Explain ost highest win rates in 1s then.
6 Apr 2021, 18:13 PM
#29
avatar of Tygrys

Posts: 103




Let see
churchill- better ultity than kv1
Comet- better utility than Panther
Uc- better than soviet scout car.
Vickers mg, better than osther mg32, in my opinion, due to better dps
Mortar pit, double range of normal mortars, brace, he barrage
Bofor- better than bunkers, brace
Firefly- better than usf tank destroyer, it can stun and selfspot
Infantry sections > every other infantry
Engineer 2 lmgs or piat + snares. better than other engineers?
AT emplacement, bettter than ostheer pak40, can brace.


Now come with your dumb reply saying im just a dumb boy or maybe be a grown up and discuss?


I'll just go with you being dumb because you unironically think static emplacements are better than mobile indirect and AT as well as Vickers being better than any other MG.
6 Apr 2021, 18:16 PM
#30
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

Comparing panther and comet is already dumb enough, given how they have completely different roles.

You wouldn't compare StuG-G to StuG-E, same thing with comet and panther.
Pip
6 Apr 2021, 18:28 PM
#31
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580


Let see
churchill- better ultity than kv1
Comet- better utility than Panther


The Churchill comes later, and for more fuel than the KV-1. The Churchill and Comet are also mutually exclusive.

The Comet is a rounded premium medium, the Panther is an AT focuses premium medium. Which is better or worse comes down to what you want them to do.




Uc- better than soviet scout car.


Except units that it's transporting cannot fire from inside of it, which is kind of the main gimmick of the Scout Car.


Vickers mg, better than osther mg32, in my opinion, due to better dps


Unequivocally wrong. An MGs' damage is absolutely secondary to its suppression. Suppression is the primary stat that is important for an MG. Ostheer get the MG42, by the way, not the "32".


Mortar pit, double range of normal mortars, brace, he barrage


And immobile, and therefore impossible to move out of harms' way. It also doesn't have double the range of normal mortars.


Bofor- better than bunkers, brace


Bunkers don't cost fuel, and don't cost population either.


Firefly- better than usf tank destroyer, it can stun and selfspot


The Jackson is much better than the Firefly.


Infantry sections > every other infantry


Correct. IS overtuning is part of why UKF isnt ever going to be a decent faction.



Engineer 2 lmgs or piat + snares. better than other engineers?


There's a reason that nobody gives RoY.Es LMGs (Unless they've gone Hammer, I guess, though this isnt the case anymore either).

USF can give riflemen and REs Zooks and Bars as well, and their mainline infantry has the snare instead of their engineer. I'm not seeing how this is a plus in UKF's favour.



AT emplacement, bettter than ostheer pak40, can brace.


Immobile and costs fuel. Unless you mean the Pak-43, wherein the Pak-43 can shoot through shotblockers on all attacks.



Now come with your dumb reply saying im just a dumb boy or maybe be a grown up and discuss?


You are wrong, and I have given you reasons why.
6 Apr 2021, 20:40 PM
#32
avatar of 1st. Fallschirmjäger

Posts: 67

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2021, 18:28 PMPip

You are wrong, and I have given you reasons why.


Tell me why
Ain't nothin' but a heartache
Tell me why
Ain't nothin' but a mistake
Tell me why

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2021, 18:28 PMPip

Correct. IS overtuning is part of why UKF isnt ever going to be a decent faction.


Yes,I think UKF needs a faction rework, but i don't think that will happen anytime soon.

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2021, 18:28 PMPip

And immobile, and therefore impossible to move out of harms' way. It also doesn't have double the range of normal mortars.


Correct. much prefer a mobile mortar, maybe make emplecements cost less(mp and pop wise) but have no brace or only brace with units inside.

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2021, 18:28 PMPip

Immobile and costs fuel. Unless you mean the Pak-43, wherein the Pak-43 can shoot through shotblockers on all attacks.


Correct again, but the main issue i see is that the UKF have the static AT gun regardless of doctrine chosen.

7 Apr 2021, 12:26 PM
#33
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 471



Tell me why
Ain't nothin' but a heartache
Tell me why
Ain't nothin' but a mistake
Tell me why



Yes,I think UKF needs a faction rework, but i don't think that will happen anytime soon.



Correct. much prefer a mobile mortar, maybe make emplecements cost less(mp and pop wise) but have no brace or only brace with units inside.



Correct again, but the main issue i see is that the UKF have the static AT gun regardless of doctrine chosen.



I don't really see a point of arguing balance with him. I haven't been here while but I do see you complaining about vs UKF alot. When stats say otherwise.

In LoL Iron league(which is the worst league), Urgot has second highest WR. Does that mean Urgot is OP?

No... the WR drops to the 34th if you see it in overall.

UKF is just like that. If you don't know how to cunter enplacement, IS behind green cover;
So you just push & push infantries into the killing field and lose because of all MP bled....
Yeah UKF might look like OP.

http://www.companyofheroes.com/leaderboards#profile/steam/76561198208402860/standings
lvl. 12 ~ 13 is at best Silver? league. See what others does if you have time to discuss about the balance.
The problem is in your hands not on the balance. Especially when eevry others don't agree with you, and statistics(https://coh2stats.com/) says otherwise.

BTW, I do heard that low tiers have hard time vs. UKF with emplacement. Just... L2P... really... You already spent 1000+ hours. Let's do better.
10 Apr 2021, 00:08 AM
#34
avatar of NorthWeapon
Donator 11

Posts: 593



In starcraft the factions are not the same, you have the terrans,zerg and protoss you too have a assymetrical game in it even more so than Coh2 i would say, so i really don't get your point here. Also about learning how to play : sure i can understand this argument up to a certain point say i can't counter a panzerschreck/zook blob and i should learn to play.

But my point was about utilities, and really that should be looked because you can say assymetrical game all you want, but the UKF is the outlier in that regard(abilitie wise) and really i am not saying nerf it to the ground but i think most people would agree that UKF is not in a good place right now and could use a rework how that is to be done i don't but i like to discuss nonetheless.


Starcraft isn't assymmetrical because you can play mirror.
10 Apr 2021, 07:48 AM
#35
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



Starcraft isn't assymmetrical because you can play mirror.

That's not how asymmetrical balance is defined...
10 Apr 2021, 08:46 AM
#36
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783

I dont think counting the number of abilities a given unit has is a good way of determining its strength, otherwise combat engineers would be more powerful than shocks.
10 Apr 2021, 17:51 PM
#37
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



I don't really see a point of arguing balance with him. I haven't been here while but I do see you complaining about vs UKF alot. When stats say otherwise.

In LoL Iron league(which is the worst league), Urgot has second highest WR. Does that mean Urgot is OP?

No... the WR drops to the 34th if you see it in overall.

UKF is just like that. If you don't know how to cunter enplacement, IS behind green cover;
So you just push & push infantries into the killing field and lose because of all MP bled....
Yeah UKF might look like OP.

http://www.companyofheroes.com/leaderboards#profile/steam/76561198208402860/standings
lvl. 12 ~ 13 is at best Silver? league. See what others does if you have time to discuss about the balance.
The problem is in your hands not on the balance. Especially when eevry others don't agree with you, and statistics(https://coh2stats.com/) says otherwise.

BTW, I do heard that low tiers have hard time vs. UKF with emplacement. Just... L2P... really... You already spent 1000+ hours. Let's do better.


https://www.coh2.org/news/54445/the-ladder-1v1-matchmaking

Compared to SC2 ladder it would be:

Lv20/15 GM
Lv14 Masters
Lv13/11 Dia
Lv10/7 Plat
Lv7/5 Gold
Lv2/4 Silver
Lv1 Bronze
11 Apr 2021, 09:48 AM
#38
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 643

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2021, 04:29 AMPorygon
This patch nerfed too much and basically killed off Brit, and still someone say they are overpowered, WTF?


Agreed British are nerfed into the ground. They really need to move the Mortar Pit to its own upgrade or commander and give them a proper mortar. On paper it seems good but needing to sit there and repair which takes forever and has a chance to one shot your Sappers compared to sitting behind a half track/ambulance or any other form of field reinforcement is light years ahead in usefulness and durability.
11 Apr 2021, 19:27 PM
#39
avatar of 1st. Fallschirmjäger

Posts: 67



I don't really see a point of arguing balance with him. I haven't been here while but I do see you complaining about vs UKF alot. When stats say otherwise.



So there is no point of arguing balance? maybe with some rework UKF can actually get out of that 42%(last time i saw) win rate,and again and again i must stress my point was not about them being OP, but UKF units having more abilities compared to similar units of any faction roster really. I even suggested to give them mobile mortars and Rocket Art by default and the only nerf i suggested was to give the Comet only one type of smoke while taking a look at why some many utillities on a single unit(IS being the primary one).



Starcraft isn't assymmetrical because you can play mirror.


You will have to forgive my Sarcasm but: On tournaments and on matchmaking you can choose to play OST vs OST or SOV vs SOV for the ultimate balance.

And as Katiof said that's not how asymmetrical balance is defined.

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2021, 08:46 AMSerrith
I dont think counting the number of abilities a given unit has is a good way of determining its strength, otherwise combat engineers would be more powerful than shocks.


Sure i agree with you, but the thing is Assault Engineer(which i assume you meant) and shocks are both doctrinal units and serve different roles in your unit roster, let's say you compare rangers and shocks which fill a similar role(if rangers go for Thompsons of course),shocks have nade and smoke nade and come deadly at close range by default, Rangers need to upgrade,have nade and can grab a bar(even with thompson), see not a great number of diffent abilities/utilities and if only counting active abilities the Rangers just lack a smoke nade.

Or if you go for a Axis/allies matchup you get Assault Grenadiers vs Shocks(closest matchup i can think in term of roles): Assault can upgrade to 6 man(veteran model) have Nades and sprint, while for shocks they have the nade and smoke nade. And Again i know the squads have different stats(armor,weapons and values) but they do serve similar roles.

Again nothing like the host of abilities/utilities the ISs can get compared to any other mainline unit by default.



https://www.coh2.org/news/54445/the-ladder-1v1-matchmaking

Compared to SC2 ladder it would be:

Lv20/15 GM
Lv14 Masters
Lv13/11 Dia
Lv10/7 Plat
Lv7/5 Gold
Lv2/4 Silver
Lv1 Bronze


And since at one time i got to Lv 15 any opinions from anyone below me is now invalid and they should learn how to play. S/



Agreed British are nerfed into the ground. They really need to move the Mortar Pit to its own upgrade or commander and give them a proper mortar. On paper it seems good but needing to sit there and repair which takes forever and has a chance to one shot your Sappers compared to sitting behind a half track/ambulance or any other form of field reinforcement is light years ahead in usefulness and durability.


Agreed on the mortar part. and as you said the UKF on paper seems like a very strong faction(As they were at one point in time) just need a rework to actually balance what works(ISs,Comets) and what does not(lack of mobile art and rocket,vickers lmg being actual shit at supressing,emplacements).

12 Apr 2021, 21:06 PM
#40
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783


Sure i agree with you, but the thing is Assault Engineer(which i assume you meant) and shocks are both doctrinal units and serve different roles in your unit roster, let's say you compare rangers and shocks which fill a similar role(if rangers go for Thompsons of course),shocks have nade and smoke nade and come deadly at close range by default, Rangers need to upgrade,have nade and can grab a bar(even with thompson), see not a great number of diffent abilities/utilities and if only counting active abilities the Rangers just lack a smoke nade.

Or if you go for a Axis/allies matchup you get Assault Grenadiers vs Shocks(closest matchup i can think in term of roles): Assault can upgrade to 6 man(veteran model) have Nades and sprint, while for shocks they have the nade and smoke nade. And Again i know the squads have different stats(armor,weapons and values) but they do serve similar roles.

Again nothing like the host of abilities/utilities the ISs can get compared to any other mainline unit by default.



There are plenty of situations where two units with similar purposes have different numbers of abilities.

LMG paras and LMG obers are similar- both are elite infatry with an emphasis on long range. What abilities do paras have? Well they have activated suppression, and they have cooked nades. What do obers have? They've got bundled nades, smoke nades, activated suppression with vet and booby traps. Oh and they are non doc.

Or how about non doc rifles vs volks? Rifles get rifle at nade and pinneaple, volks get faust incendiary nade and can build sandbags.

And interestingly sometimes when a unit has too many abilities it actually becomes problematic for that unit. Take sturmpioneers- they can repair, sweep for mines, build defenses, build landmines, offer healing for troops and have a stun grenade. I mean that sounds like a great unit right? No other engineer can give aoe healing, no other engineer has stun nades, no other engineer can get a minesweeper without sacrificing firepower. One could be forgiven for thinking that sturmpioneers are an OP unit. But they're not. There are other things that need to be considered before blanket declaring they are too strong.
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