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UKF have too many abilities by default.

24 Mar 2021, 19:45 PM
#1
avatar of 1st. Fallschirmjäger

Posts: 67

I know there is already a tread ``Brit`s OP, Again`` but that one is just a guy running 3 falls into red cover taking a nade and nearly getting run over by a tank.

So 1-2 days ago we got the loadout bug where most of the time no commanders loaded for either side, and man it`s hard to play Ostheer with no commander(or any faction by that matter) but what i noticed is that UKF did not seen that different to play against aside from no flares and land mattress/commandos, and i felt(arrived at a conclusion really) that is because they get most things by default, i will try to list UKF and OST comparable units,again you can disagree with my assessment and/or say i am analysing the units in a vacuum,but i am doing this just for comparison sake on a no command pick base(also correct me if i forget/get things wrongs in any unit).

OST

Granadier 4/5 man -240 mp
Can build bunkers-150 mp
Mg-42-60 Mun - tech 1
Rifle nade - 30 mun - tech1
Panzerfaust - 25 mun
Field First Aid - 10 mun - vet 1

VS

UKF

Infantry Section 4/5 man - 270 mp

Cover damage bonus - needs cover.
Can build Trenches and sandbags - no cost.
Builds caches - 250 MP
Mill bomb -25 mun - mill bomb tech 100 mp,10 fuel.
2-brens - 45 each - weapon rack tech 150 mp, 15 fuel.
2-piats - 45(or 50 can`t remenber rigth now) each - Weapon rack tech 150 mp, 15 fuel.
Bolster to 5 man - 150 mp,35 fuel - Platoon Command Post
Medical suplies - 45 mun - Platoon Command Post
Pyrotechnics Supplies - 40 mun - Platoon Command Post

Depending on the upgrade they get:
Medical suplies;
Instant Aura healing - no cost

Pyrotechnics Supplies;
Increased sigth range.
Coordinated Fire - 45 mun
Coordinated Smoke Barrage - 25 mun.

With hammer they also get:
Gammon Bomb- 50 mun

My thoughts: while the IF lack a snare, the sheer amount of survivability and other Abilities they have more than make up for it. my suggestion would be give 5 man(just another model, not a veteran) to granadiers at last tier with the building made, to improve late game survivability and help incase you need to recruit some after losses and make the field first aid on par at least with UKF one(no cast time,aura of healing)

OST

nothing

Vs

Ukf

Universal Carrier - 260 mp 5 fuel

Vickers K Mounted Variant - 60 muni - Platoon Command Post
WASP Flamethrower Variant - 75 muni - Platoon Command Post
Crew Repair - 15 mun

My thoughts: since the OST have no equivalent unit, the UC can roam free until it get's snared,gets a burst of mg 42 incendiary ammo or 222/AT comes along(Not op, just hard to deal with early on provided UKF has good micro)

OST

Mg42 -260 mp
Fire Incendiary Armor Piercing Rounds - 15 mun

VS

UKF

Vickers Heavy Machine Gun - 260 mp
Take Aim! - 15 mun

My thoughts: no doubt the mg 42 is better, i would decrease vickers DMG and increase Supression to balance it.

OST

Pioneer Squad 4 man - 200 mp
Flammenwerfer 35 - 60 mun
Hazard Removal Package - 30 mun
Field First Aid - 10 mun - vet 1
Can build sandbags,mines,wires, bunkers, tech buildings and caches.

VS

Royal Engineers 4/5 man - 210 mp
Hazard Removal Package - 30 mun
Heavy Engineers - 60 mun - anvil
2-brens - 45 each - weapon rack tech 150 mp, 15 fuel.
2-piats - 45(or 50 can`t remenber rigth now) each - Weapon rack tech 150 mp, 15 fuel.
Bolster to 5 man - 150 mp,35 fuel - Platoon Command Post
HEAT Grenade - 25 mun - Platoon Command Post
Destroy Cover - Platoon Command Post
They can build wires, all emplacements and mines.

My thoughts:while 4 man to 4 man they ''trade'' evenly, the ability to equip weapons like piats,bolster to 5 and build emplacements(that can go from Hot shit to absolute Cancer) give the Edge to UKF engs even if their generalist mines are not as good as the OST specialist ones.

OST

Panzergrenadiers 4 man - 340 mp
RPzB 54 "Panzerschreck" x2 - 100 mun
Bundled Model 24 Grenades - 35 mun
Combined Arms - vet 1

VS

Assault Officer 4/5 man - 320 mp - limited to one squad
Light Gammon Bomb - 35 mun
Heroic Charge - no cost
Recon Sweep - 30 mun - vet 1
2-brens - 45 mun each - weapon rack tech 150 mp, 15 fuel.
2-piats - 45(or 50 can`t remenber rigth now) each - Weapon rack tech 150 mp, 15 fuel.

My thoughts:while not exatly the same role, but both squads can reach the field at similar timings and excel at close range, but again because of recon sweep officer should scale better at late game than panzergranadiers since they get fucked by 2 bren IFs before they can get close most of the time. My suggestion is to give both squads a smoke granade by default to actually allow them to get close before they get killed by mg42 granadiers and 2 bren IFs.

OST

Sniper - 360 mp
Fire Incendiary Explosive Round- 40 mun

VS

UKF

.50 Sniper -360 mp
Critical Shot - 30 mun - vet 1
Coordinated Fire - 45 mun

My thoughts: I will not comment on this matchup since i really suck at sniper micro, and leave to you guys who do not.

OST

AT gun
Target Weak Point - 30 mun

VS

UKF

AT gun
Rapid Maneuvers - 30 mun

My thoughts: OST one is better because of target weak point but that is it.

OST

Mortar

VS

UKF

Nothing

My thoughts: just give UKF a mortar and remove the emplacement(maybe attach it to a commander)

OST

Halftrack - 200 mp 30 fuel
Can reinforce
Plant Schu-Mine-42 - 30 muni
Flame Projectors - 90 muni

VS

UKF

Nothing

My thoughts: Most of the times AEC/at makes short work of a flame haltrack, and reinforce one is not that useful unless you have a very stable frontline.My suggestion give normal halftrack a recon pass at vet 1/2
since i think OST is the only faction missing recon ATM.

OST

SdKfz 222 Scout Car - 200 mp 30 fuel
Infantry Awareness - 10 mun - vet 1

VS

UKF

AEC Mk. III -280 mp 60 fuel + 100 mp 15 fuel REQ
Target Tread - 30 mun
Smoke Screen - 30 mun

My thoughts: Most of the times AEC makes short work of a 222, and scales very well in late game, while the 222 does shit all without scopes or vet 2 in the late game provided you even managed to keep it alive,i would recommend increasing the armor/hp on 222 so it's not as vulnerable to even small arms fire.

OST

Flakpanzer IV Ostwind- 300 mp 100 fuel
Blitzkrieg Tactics - 30 mun - vet 1

VS

UKF

Centaur AA Mk. II Cruiser Tank -300mp 100 fuel
20mm Strafing Fire - 30 mun

My thoughts: Not that much to say here just the the ostwind feels better against blobs, while the centaur feels better against single squads and planes unless you get a good strafing fire activation.

OST

Panzer 4 - 350 mp 120 fuel
Blitzkrieg Tactics - 30 mun - vet 1
Pintle-mounted MG42 machine gun - 50 mun

VS

UKF

Cromwell Mk. IV Cruiser Tank -340mp 110 fuel
Tank Commander- 25 mun
Fire Smoke Shell- 20 mun
Hunt - 30 mun - vet 1

My thoughts: for a lesser cost the Cronwell trades very well with the panzer 4 and is very good a running over infantary,chasing down tanks and comes with default smoke.

OST

StuG III Ausf. G Assault Gun- 280 mp 90 fuel
Target Weak Point - 35 mun - vet 1
Pintle-mounted MG42 machine gun - 30 mun

VS

UKF

Sherman Firefly -440 mp 145 fuel
Tank Commander- 25 mun
60-pound Tulip Rockets- 30 mun for upgrade, 80 for activation


My thoughts: while i know that the firefly is more expensive than the stug and should be better because of it, i fell the stug is very lackluster rigth now, since the firefly can halt the advance of all heavy tanks(bar the elefant and jeagertiger) thanks to tulip, while the stug is mostly there to kill KV1s that the panzer 4 cannot deal with. my suggestion is to make stug about 300 mp 115 fuel,increase range to 60(target weakpoint range should be 50 still since it would be harder to target a smaller point on a enemy tank) and that should make the stug a more desirable AT option against all allies.

OST

Panther PzKpfw V Medium Tank- 490 mp,185 fuel
Blitzkrieg Tactics - 30 mun - vet 1
Pintle-mounted MG42 machine gun - 50 mun

VS

UKF

Comet Tank -480 mp 175 fuel
Tank Commander- 25 mun
Fire Smoke Shell- 20 mun
Crew Self Defense- 20 mun.
M89 White Phosphorous Shell - 20 mun


My thoughts:This tank rigth here is the bane of my existence, why some much utility on a single tank i will never know, this piece of shit rigth here at vet 1 can drive up to 2 at guns,White Phosphorous one put granades on the other, all while still shooting at your troops or tanks and smoking something else, while the fireflys fuck up your tanks from afar and 5 man terminator squads charge in.My suggestion is remove smoke or Phosphorous Shell(one or the other) and maybe buff the Panther against infantary( so the main gun can do more damage aside from a direct model hit)

OST

Sturmpanzer IV Brummbar
And
Panzerwerfer 42 Multiple Rocket Launcher

VS

Nothing
And
Nothing

My thoughts: Give UKF a less powerfull Land matress by default(give something different to the commander which has it now) because these two(Brummbar and Panzerwerfer)are the only real counter to a UKF blob supported by tanks rigth now from the OST side and feel really good to play with and agaisnt rigth now.


I will not comment on the Churchill Mk. VII Infantry Tank since for me that is a meme unit.

So guys any thoughts,do the UKF have many abilities by default?am i full of shit? a wehraboo? let me know. would appreciate any feedback on my suggestions.











24 Mar 2021, 21:06 PM
#4
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1853 | Subs: 1

My theory is just that you are so used to hearing "The Ability is Ready!" that when you didn't have a commander locked in that you misseed it too much.
24 Mar 2021, 21:29 PM
#5
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Gren:
5th man is only with doctrine
Vet3 dmg modifier as opposed to RA is a feature as well
T4 reduce reinforcement cost - (Capture rate? can't really remember if it was removed or fixed)

IS:
Non cover is not a bonus but a penalty. Which affects the most on weapon picks than.
Vet1 vision on cover


I don't ever see Grens getting 5th man by default. I don't see that big of a change ever happening, specially after the last patch. What i had always vision was that Pios (before the repair changes) would had gotten a 5th man upgrade.

In regards to Grens, the most i can see happen is moving the reinforce bonus for them only at T3 and further at T4.

___________________

Pio:
Vision

Outside of repair/mine/sweeper i think they perform different roles. Flamer makes it a light shock value unit early on while you will never see weapon rack on RE that early. Later on Pio is more passive while RE are the unit UKF has to snare.

___________________

PG vs AO

Your mistake as with previous point is trying to mirror them. PG are short AND mid range DPS while AO is short. I think you get way more out of the buck for PG and you need to get vet2 on AO before it pays off (5th model).
___________________

HT
Healing

222 + HT vs AEC
I think at this point i realise you mostly play 3v3+. It's all about timing. FHT is a real threat while the AEC is basically on the same level of the 222 for cost.



I'll cut it here. I don't think you can just compare a single Axis faction vs a single allied faction, cause that not how balance work. If UKF was so good we would had seen win tournaments and be spammed in most games.

In regards to OH, i think we have a specific thread about it. I think it's a little too soon yet to make balance calls and if anything is gonna change i suspect minor changes to cost efficiency, not many broad stat changes.
24 Mar 2021, 21:44 PM
#6
avatar of 1st. Fallschirmjäger

Posts: 67

My theory is just that you are so used to hearing "The Ability is Ready!" that when you didn't have a commander locked in that you misseed it too much.


Could be,could be,i actually managed to win some games because some times 1 or 2 commanders on your team get left to pick so my team could still get some Commander picks, but what i got from the experience is that the UKF did not feel diferrent to play against even when they had no commanders.Same could be said of playing against Ostheer when i think about it really since most times they go Jaegar armor and a long time goes in a match till you see a elefant.
25 Mar 2021, 02:00 AM
#7
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 958

I'd only agree with the stock infantry units: Infantry Sections and REs. The amount of utility on these two units is completely absurd, and allows for them to become far too powerful, especially in groups.

You have a stock infantry unit - with no docs - that can have 5 models, 2 LMGs, two grenades, off-map artillery and smoke (or healing), and can build sandbags and caches all at the same time. The same can be said for REs. This is just too much utility on a single squad.

My suggestion:

1. bolster becomes a per-squad upgrade (locked behind one command upgrade), costing 2x the squads reinforce cost (i.e 56mp for IS, 52mp for REs). This adjusts the overall squad MP cost to match what they should cost based on their model count. If the base squad cost needs to go down a bit to compensate, that's ok.

2. Bolster/Pyro/Medic/Heavy Engineer upgrades each take up one weapon slot. If you want a bolstered medic squad, it can't have two Brens. Similarly, if you want a 2x Piat RE squad, it'll have 4 models and no Heavy Engineer upgrade. This limits the overall squad power to reasonable levels, much like how OST's VSL upgrade took a weapon slot (and prevented the LMG42 upgrade purchase).

3. Caches removed from Infantry Sections; RE's should be the ones building things.
25 Mar 2021, 04:29 AM
#8
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2774

This patch nerfed too much and basically killed off Brit, and still someone say they are overpowered, WTF?
25 Mar 2021, 05:41 AM
#9
avatar of 1st. Fallschirmjäger

Posts: 67

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2021, 04:29 AMPorygon
This patch nerfed too much and basically killed off Brit, and still someone say they are overpowered, WTF?


never said they were OP my point is they have too many abilities by default, and really what were the UKF nerfs?
25 Mar 2021, 05:48 AM
#10
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2774



never said they were OP my point is they have too many abilities by default, and really what were the UKF nerfs?


Good, then what's the point of your thread?

Inspite Tommies already being expensive, super shitty out of green cover, no snare. The genius balance team getting a triple or quad nerf of them, no more Brit in tourney or even automatch.

Congratz, well done.
25 Mar 2021, 07:03 AM
#11
avatar of 1st. Fallschirmjäger

Posts: 67

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Mar 2021, 05:48 AMPorygon


Good, then what's the point of your thread?

Inspite Tommies already being expensive, super shitty out of green cover, no snare. The genius balance team getting a triple or quad nerf of them, no more Brit in tourney or even automatch.

Congratz, well done.


As i said my point is that they have too many abilities by default.

Expensive? sure 270 mp, but that is less than rifleman and penals who cost 280 mp and 290 mp respectively, and i feel that even with no snares IFs are better than those two, and they are not shitty outside of green cover, they just can't win 2 vs 1 outside it(as most time as OST/OKW you need 2 squads to push 1 IF out of green cover if you can't push for close quarters) and again what was the the triple/quad nerf on them?

And if you read my post the only nerf i proposed was to give only one smoke to Comet tank and not two,and to actually give UKF Mortars(mobile ones) and Rocket Arty to maybe do away with the emplacements problem, my suggestions were more tweaks to Osther units than to nerf any UKF one.

I will grant you don't see UKF in tourneys but in automatch the faction is alive and well at least in my experience.



You have a stock infantry unit - with no docs - that can have 5 models, 2 LMGs, two grenades, off-map artillery and smoke (or healing), and can build sandbags and caches all at the same time. The same can be said for REs. This is just too much utility on a single squad.



This so much, this is not good even for UKF, since IFs are needed to heal, build cover, build caches, call art and to figth on the frontlines.
29 Mar 2021, 04:35 AM
#12
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2774



As i said my point is that they have too many abilities by default.

Expensive? sure 270 mp, but that is less than rifleman and penals who cost 280 mp and 290 mp respectively, and i feel that even with no snares IFs are better than those two, and they are not shitty outside of green cover, they just can't win 2 vs 1 outside it(as most time as OST/OKW you need 2 squads to push 1 IF out of green cover if you can't push for close quarters) and again what was the the triple/quad nerf on them?


OK whatever mate, mind sharing your Brit 1v1 rank? Is it 4 digit?
29 Mar 2021, 05:57 AM
#13
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 498

The fundamental problem is that OP is comparing the units one on one and not looking at the two factions as a whole.
Imagine trying to compare USF and Ostheer unit by unit, it would be even crazier...
29 Mar 2021, 07:04 AM
#14
avatar of 1st. Fallschirmjäger

Posts: 67

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Mar 2021, 04:35 AMPorygon


OK whatever mate, mind sharing your Brit 1v1 rank? Is it 4 digit?


one vs one me mate:). why can`t people just discuss topics like civilized folk? i really don't play 1v1 so i guess the next best would be 2vs2, but again i only play as allies with my friend cause he likes it(not all matches were played with UKF but i mostly play as them when we go as allies)

https://ibb.co/W6BQdBQ


Do i meet your ranking quota to have a opinion?, or do i need to be top 100 across all modes?

The fundamental problem is that OP is comparing the units one on one and not looking at the two factions as a whole.
Imagine trying to compare USF and Ostheer unit by unit, it would be even crazier...


I really don't see it that way, if you compare in terms of abilities for example default mainline infantary between let's say USF and OKW(rifleman and volksgranadier).Both have a nade and a snare and upgrade 2 weapons(with diferent mechanics to get those) the only outlier being salvage for the volks.
Even with USF and OST, granadier only differ in the fact they can build bunkers and have a med kit(which only really saw any use with the infantary commander).

And again i say they are similar ONLY in the Abilities both have, i know model stats vary between them.

29 Mar 2021, 09:54 AM
#15
avatar of C3 TOOTH

Posts: 176

I would say Bofors, Mortarpit, Pounder are units, not really an ability like bunker, they have vet themselves.

Early game: 0 to 3min
IS, MG, UCarrier
---vs---
Pion, MG, Gren, Mortar, Sniper
*Start with IS, its easy to have double IS as a starter. Starter Pion & Gren requires MG to deal with them. Double IS requires 30sec in game to get, Gren & MG requires 55sec. You start the game with disadvantage over building control.
*If MG being flanked and force to retreat, Gren will get beaten up by IS.
*Despite Gren is frontline, you cant put them on front because of nature food chain Gren > UC > MG,Sniper. If you retreat your Gren, everything is gone if there is an UC.
*Final, Ost units requires each other to fight (well designed). Brit units can retreat and not affect others.

Early Mid game: 3-7min
RE, AT, Officer, Sniper, Mortarpit, Bofors
---vs---
PzGren, AT, 222, 251
*Eventhough UKF is a defensive faction like Ost, having powerful push in early may be deadly when they have ability to build Bofors on key resource, force you to build double Mortar or AT. While Bofors can hold enough time for the resource they're defending.
*There were match vs double UKF, Mortars to Bofors will get countered by double Mortar pits behind, or ATguns to Bofors will set swamped by pack of IS.

Mid game: 7-12min
AEC
---vs---
???

Mid Late game: 12-20
Centaur, Cromwell, FF
---vs---
Stug, Pz4, Ostwind
*Not sure if I can say this is equal tech.

Late game:
Churchill/Comet, Pounder
---vs---
Brumbar, Panther, werfer
*Soviet, USF have tough infantry with fragile vehicles. Axis have tough vehicles with fragile infantry.
*Brit just happens to have both...
5 Apr 2021, 14:37 PM
#16
avatar of blancat

Posts: 810

Your name smells like a axis fanboy, bruh

Are axis fanboys satisfied only when Germany is superior?

Did you know that British and other dlc factions have fewer commanders than the original factions?
5 Apr 2021, 15:23 PM
#17
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

We could cut abilities and juice whats there to compensate. UKF is currently the weakest faction across the board.
5 Apr 2021, 15:40 PM
#18
avatar of 1st. Fallschirmjäger

Posts: 67

Your name smells like a axis fanboy, bruh

Are axis fanboys satisfied only when Germany is superior?

Did you know that British and other dlc factions have fewer commanders than the original factions?


Very constructive, what does name factor into anything? by that logic half this forum should not post since they have names that sound like Axis/allies fanboy.

Sure you are rigth axis fanboys would be happy only when Germany is superior, i just want a more standardized game so one faction does not have to rely on single unit(infantary section) for medics,cover,sight,caches,barrages and deal damage.

Yes they have fewer commanders than the original factions,and your point? Because so does the OKW and USF and in my opinion that is a good thing since most feel different to each other while in the OST/SOV roster there is a lot of bloat with lots of reused abilities across the board.

We could cut abilities and juice whats there to compensate. UKF is currently the weakest faction across the board.


Yes that could be done, as someone suggested, in the case of IFs snare could be added while moving sandbags/trenchs/caches to engs, making the upgrades cost 1 weapon slot while giving some other bonus.
Pip
5 Apr 2021, 18:57 PM
#19
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1585

We could cut abilities and juice whats there to compensate. UKF is currently the weakest faction across the board.


UKF will bounce between the weakest and strongest faction constantly due to Lelic's insistence that the biggest flaws with their design arent actually addressed. The faction really needs a total revamp, and IS/Bolster in particular needs to be changed significantly.
6 Apr 2021, 10:46 AM
#20
avatar of GoforGiantsV3

Posts: 85

Bolster infantry Squads = slightly Later time than LMG42(Bolster first = Nearly Same, AEC first = around 2 minutes later)

HMG42 VS Vickers

HMG42 is the Best HMG of CoH2 but it is mascot of Ostheer. Not-Lacking Killing, and Best supperession.
Vickers has Clearly Low Supperession. But High Killing ability. It's just Difference of their type.

UC is clearly Difference. But Ostheer is the Dullest infantry mobility but having Best Team Weapons at all kinds.

And You know. UKF pick rate is Heavily Dropping with USF pick rate.

USF and UKF were just getting long times of nerf.
Those Factions are only left with experienced players and Newbies are escaping to soviet. So that's why UKF and USF winrate is slightly med-high rank in 1v1 but crushed to hell in team players. Nearday future Relic can be clearly kill those factions.
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