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Top level player allegedly maphacking in CoH2

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16 Mar 2021, 19:02 PM
#361
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4104 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Mar 2021, 18:19 PMRosbone

In your image probably yes. The unit is in the in-between (grey) cell area which could still be considered visible.



Although off topic this could explain part of the reason why tanks occassionally don't target units on the very edge of their range without a given attack order. Neat find.
16 Mar 2021, 19:04 PM
#362
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1681 | Subs: 2

:hijack:
On a side note, imagine how long it would take to render all of the sight circles for every model on the map during a late game 4v4.

I was just doing some more testing:
I tested an M20 moving over normal terrain. The M20 took around 40 frames of video to move 10 meters on a 30 fps video.

1/30 = 33.3 miliSeconds per frame
33.3 * 40 = 1.333 seconds to move 10 meters
1/1.333 * 10 = 7.5 meters/second
7.5/30 = .25 meters per frame of video

This matches the fact that in previous tests the FOW seemed to recalc every 4-5 frames of video. In 4-5 frames the M20 would move to a new CELL and the FOW would appear to move.

This says the FOW is calculated EVERY frame of the game generically.

I wish I was good at math :foreveralone:

Modders and smart guys: Does 7.5 meters per second match the M20 speed setting in the game?
16 Mar 2021, 20:12 PM
#363
avatar of Ægion
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 747 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Mar 2021, 19:04 PMRosbone


Modders and smart guys: Does 7.5 meters per second match the M20 speed setting in the game?


The mod tools says 7.8, note the mod tools are about 6 patches behind but the patch notes suggest it has not have been changed.
16 Mar 2021, 23:17 PM
#364
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4

Had some free time today:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1178diu9CjRQJVn42TK5Q38Xw7IaJrR01VaocjT-76TM/edit?usp=sharing

For anyone interested, sorry in advance for the length. There is a conclusion at the end though, for anyone who wants a TLDR.
16 Mar 2021, 23:36 PM
#365
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5421 | Subs: 28

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Mar 2021, 23:17 PMCieZ
Had some free time today:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1178diu9CjRQJVn42TK5Q38Xw7IaJrR01VaocjT-76TM/edit?usp=sharing

For anyone interested, sorry in advance for the length. There is a conclusion at the end though, for anyone who wants a TLDR.


Thx for doing this.
Since i had no time i just went to the bottom. Tho i knew already what you will say / what's your opinion about seeking is.

Which number is the sniper action on eindhoven? Seeking wehrmacht.

I miss the whole section about the looking in fow difference between stream games / ref watching him and the off stream games.


I had the same idea about watching other replays. I did that already in past with my own replay. I use wasd / arrows for the camera. But i almost never look in fow.
About your links at the end. What is the sense?

1. What is your point there?
2. Wehrmacht panther has scopes i guess so he saw the at guns before.
3. The "building" from the pathfinder showed momo the sniper on the minimap

Nobody would say based on any of this clips that there was cheating... Imo there is a huge difference between seeking stuff and your 3 links. But again i had also the idea about if someone could do it with other topplayers. Curious what you will find. Must be new replays and in a short duration


ML4 vs noggano and devm were in Cup games without a ref. So there is the motivation.
Why in automatch? They were training for the comming 2vs2 cup. One could say he made it to make a psychical pressure on other teams. If you lose every time or very often vs a team already in automatch, you are more scared in cups vs this people. You start losing a fight, if your brain is already thinking that you lost.

--> So all in all. Thank you for doing this. But this looks for me onesided from you. Which is ok, if you want to make your standpoint stronger and clear.

P.S on my document there is a link to most of the replays(as you asked for replays)
17 Mar 2021, 00:04 AM
#366
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4



Thx for doing this.
Since i had no time i just went to the bottom. Tho i knew already what you will say / what's your opinion about seeking is.

Which number is the sniper action on eindhoven? Seeking wehrmacht.

I miss the whole section about the looking in fow difference between stream games / ref watching him and the off stream games.


I had the same idea about watching other replays. I did that already in past with my own replay. I use wasd / arrows for the camera. But i almost never look in fow.
About your links at the end. What is the sense?

1. What is your point there?
2. Wehrmacht panther has scopes i guess so he saw the at guns before.
3. The "building" from the pathfinder showed momo the sniper on the minimap

Nobody would say based on any of this clips that there was cheating... Imo there is a huge difference between seeking stuff and your 3 links. But again i had also the idea about if someone could do it with other topplayers. Curious what you will find. Must be new replays and in a short duration


ML4 vs noggano and devm were in Cup games without a ref. So there is the motivation.
Why in automatch? They were training for the comming 2vs2 cup. One could say he made it to make a psychical pressure on other teams. If you lose every time or very often vs a team already in automatch, you are more scared in cups vs this people. You start losing a fight, if your brain is already thinking that you lost.

--> So all in all. Thank you for doing this. But this looks for me onesided from you. Which is ok, if you want to make your standpoint stronger and clear.

P.S on my document there is a link to most of the replays(as you asked for replays)


You already knew what I would say because of my opinion of Seeking? I barely know him. I've never played with or against him (that I know of/remember) and have only cast a few of his games during one of Currahee's tournaments. But all right.

Do you mean the sniper going for a counter snipe with the recon run on Eindhoven? Maybe I can dig up the replay or get a longer clip of that but I'll try to add it tomorrow if I have time.

I would have to look at any difference in the way he plays/looks into the fog at another time. This document was already quite time consuming and I don't have to time to dig deeply into that right now. Maybe I can tackle it another day if people are interested. I have looked at it briefly, but it is going to be difficult because some clips are played at 1/4 speed, some at half, some at normal, some at 2x, etc. Also people are going to play differently in a tournament setting versus automatch or scrim games.

Just because you never look into the fog with WASD doesn't mean other people won't. This is a non-starter kind of point to make. It's not like every tactical map player plays exactly the same. Me mentioning the WASD camera movement was to point out that his camera movement will naturally look different than a tact map player, and since he has to order units on his screen (rather than tact map or minimap), he's going to "look" at the fog more... not because he's looking - because he's ordering movement. There are numerous examples of: look at a spot, 0.5 seconds later a nearby unit is moving towards that spot.

As for the links at the end, I'm not accusing anyone of maphacking, I'm just pointing out some moments that *could* be taken as suspicious to show that weird things happen in CoH2. In the first clip the REs are a pixel outside of MG range, if some one were actively looking for map hack evidence, they would probably point to this. You are adding the context of spotting scopes to the panther in the second clip. If we had only seen 10-15 seconds of a dive bomb landing on cloaked AT guns, it might look suspicious. Again, you're adding context to the third clip - which is exactly my point. Out of context, benign things can look suspicious when in reality they aren't.

Correct, the motivation would be there for tournament games, but those seemed like the least suspicious clips (except MAYBE the AssGrens sprinting). I was saying that most (not all, just most) of the evidence used comes from automatch where there would be little to no motivation. A tournament veteran shouldn't get "psyched out" by losing some games (they won some games too from what I understand) in automatch. That argument is borderline conspiracy theory territory.

I'll see about going through the google doc now that you added the replays (much appreciated by the way). Unfortunately the naming convention is awkward so it would take some time to get to a specific replay.
17 Mar 2021, 00:12 AM
#367
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1681 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Mar 2021, 20:12 PMÆgion
The mod tools says 7.8, note the mod tools are about 6 patches behind but the patch notes suggest it has not have been changed.

Thanks!

In my test I started measuring at the first 10m grid line it crossed in Cheatmods so maybe it was not up to full speed yet.

It also chose some weird angular path so it traveled a few % further probably.

But it came out to a nice even number so I went with it.
17 Mar 2021, 00:29 AM
#368
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5421 | Subs: 28

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Mar 2021, 00:04 AMCieZ


You already knew what I would say because of my opinion of Seeking? I barely know him. I've never played with or against him (that I know of/remember) and have only cast a few of his games during one of Currahee's tournaments. But all right.

Do you mean the sniper going for a counter snipe with the recon run on Eindhoven? Maybe I can dig up the replay or get a longer clip of that but I'll try to add it tomorrow if I have time.

I would have to look at any difference in the way he plays/looks into the fog at another time. This document was already quite time consuming and I don't have to time to dig deeply into that right now. Maybe I can tackle it another day if people are interested. I have looked at it briefly, but it is going to be difficult because some clips are played at 1/4 speed, some at half, some at normal, some at 2x, etc. Also people are going to play differently in a tournament setting versus automatch or scrim games.

Just because you never look into the fog with WASD doesn't mean other people won't. This is a non-starter kind of point to make. It's not like every tactical map player plays exactly the same. Me mentioning the WASD camera movement was to point out that his camera movement will naturally look different than a tact map player, and since he has to order units on his screen (rather than tact map or minimap), he's going to "look" at the fog more... not because he's looking - because he's ordering movement. There are numerous examples of: look at a spot, 0.5 seconds later a nearby unit is moving towards that spot.

As for the links at the end, I'm not accusing anyone of maphacking, I'm just pointing out some moments that *could* be taken as suspicious to show that weird things happen in CoH2. In the first clip the REs are a pixel outside of MG range, if some one were actively looking for map hack evidence, they would probably point to this. You are adding the context of spotting scopes to the panther in the second clip. If we had only seen 10-15 seconds of a dive bomb landing on cloaked AT guns, it might look suspicious. Again, you're adding context to the third clip - which is exactly my point. Out of context, benign things can look suspicious when in reality they aren't.

Correct, the motivation would be there for tournament games, but those seemed like the least suspicious clips (except MAYBE the AssGrens sprinting). I was saying that most (not all, just most) of the evidence used comes from automatch where there would be little to no motivation. A tournament veteran shouldn't get "psyched out" by losing some games (they won some games too from what I understand) in automatch. That argument is borderline conspiracy theory territory.

I'll see about going through the google doc now that you added the replays (much appreciated by the way). Unfortunately the naming convention is awkward so it would take some time to get to a specific replay.

I knew it because you posted your opinion here in the forum already.
About fow. I have to click also in fow to cap a point. That is normal. That's why in past some low reports about maphacking were dumb and useless. Yes each person plays difference, tho the person self should play the same.
I think most people agree and know that some clips are bad mate. I did not worked in past together with brosras. You can see the difference in ae, aerafield stuff.
Yes do that. I mean the people on the document also spent alot of time in it. Not only watching the clips.
(the Momo shot is still useless even with less sec clip. Because of minimap.). But yes more time is better. Tho ofc many people just want to see the action. That's I assume brosras and Co made those 5 to 20 sec clips.

BTW for raz /dbmb was also just action like the at guns on crossing. And years later he used 120 mm mortar in fow mgs.
Was able just luck or he heared the tanks? Because that are also now the arguments about some clips. Luck and heared it...

So imo it's hard to make a line, when it's enough to ban or not. (if hackers have brain). Ofc you go Yolo and don't care then sure it's easy to prove.
17 Mar 2021, 00:47 AM
#369
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4


I knew it because you posted your opinion here in the forum already.
About fow. I have to click also in fow to cap a point. That is normal. That's why in past some low reports about maphacking were dumb and useless. Yes each person plays difference, tho the person self should play the same.
I think most people agree and know that some clips are bad mate. I did not worked in past together with brosras. You can see the difference in ae, aerafield stuff.
Yes do that. I mean the people on the document also spent alot of time in it. Not only watching the clips.
(the Momo shot is still useless even with less sec clip. Because of minimap.). But yes more time is better. Tho ofc many people just want to see the action. That's I assume brosras and Co made those 5 to 20 sec clips.

BTW for raz /dbmb was also just action like the at guns on crossing. And years later he used 120 mm mortar in fow mgs.
Was able just luck or he heared the tanks? Because that are also now the arguments about some clips. Luck and heared it...

So imo it's hard to make a line, when it's enough to ban or not. (if hackers have brain). Ofc you go Yolo and don't care then sure it's easy to prove.


Regarding Raz/Dbmb, he did make arguments like "oh I heard the tanks in the fog/saw trees falling/etc but there are two major differences. First of all, we KNEW for sure that he had a history of map hacking. On top of that... story time...

During one of Ami's (I think it was Ami) tournaments, Raz/Dbmb was doing well and there had already been questions about the legitimacy of his play so I did some research. Dbmb, by his own admission, was Raz. Somehow or another I stumbled upon an account by the name of Zed03 on a video game hacking forum (name retracted here for obvious reasons, the name was provided to the appropriate people at the time). This account was actively discussing precisely how to map hack in COH2. And I don't mean just "lul some1 give me hax" I mean he was discussing how to write custom software to map hack.

There also happened to be a reddit user by the name of Zed03 that had leaked a pastebin link containing exact patch notes from an upcoming COH2 patch on the COH subreddit. If my memory serves, Raz leaked the exact same link on the coh2.org forums. At this time I had access to COH2 patches ahead of time as part of a group of players that helped Relic test balance, commanders, etc. Raz asked me to run IDAPro against COH2 patches and offered to provide me with a cracked copy of the program. I refused.

Back to Zed03, after digging through Zed03's post history, it turned out that Raz and Zed03 had a LOT in common. They lived in the same place, they played the same games, they had the same job, they shared the same hobbies, they were the same ethnicity, etc. There was an absolute mountain of evidence that linked them as the same person. There was also a Reddit post by Zed03 directly linking to Raz's steam account (he was looking for people to play a game with).

So yes, Dbmb tried to argue that he wasn't hacking and just had game sense etc etc, but he had a history of hacking AND was directly tied to an account that was actively discussing writing a hack for COH2. The cases are quite different. Furthermore, even with ALL of that evidence, the admins of said tournament chose to wait until a few minutes prior to the match to privately tell Dbmb that he had been disqualified. And as it turns out, Dbmb was banned by Relic shortly thereafter in another map hacker ban wave. Fun fact, he has been banned at least three times over by Relic.
17 Mar 2021, 00:58 AM
#370
avatar of NorthWeapon
Donator 11

Posts: 588

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Mar 2021, 00:47 AMCieZ


So yes, Dbmb tried to argue that he wasn't hacking and just had game sense etc etc, but he had a history of hacking AND was directly tied to an account that was actively discussing writing a hack for COH2. The cases are quite different. Furthermore, even with ALL of that evidence, the admins of said tournament chose to wait until a few minutes prior to the match to privately tell Dbmb that he had been disqualified. And as it turns out, Dbmb was banned by Relic shortly thereafter in another map hacker ban wave. Fun fact, he has been banned at least three times over by Relic.


This is why we can't really take their word for it, someone can be blatantly cheating and still say they are legit like a psychopath.

Also want to point out dbmb used to Twitch stream, maybe to prove that he is not hacking.

Also I agree with Ciez's google docs. None of these clips are strong enough to say without a doubt he is maphacking.
17 Mar 2021, 02:01 AM
#371
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2304 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Mar 2021, 00:47 AMCieZ
So yes, Dbmb tried to argue that he wasn't hacking and just had game sense etc etc, but he had a history of hacking AND was directly tied to an account that was actively discussing writing a hack for COH2. The cases are quite different.


Really? Because to me that sounds super similar to the Deadbolt situation; directly tied to an account with a history of maphacking.
17 Mar 2021, 02:09 AM
#372
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2475 | Subs: 21



This is why we can't really take their word for it, someone can be blatantly cheating and still say they are legit like a psychopath.

Also want to point out dbmb used to Twitch stream, maybe to prove that he is not hacking.



Which is why we are having an investigation conducted. But until a thorough conclusion has been made, I suggest everyone be respectful to seeking as his reputation is on the line here. Imagine if it was you in his shoes for a minute dealing with this. I bet you'd be under a good amount of pressure with a mob outside your door calling for you to hang. :foreveralone:
17 Mar 2021, 02:41 AM
#373
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Mar 2021, 02:01 AMTobis


Really? Because to me that sounds super similar to the Deadbolt situation; directly tied to an account with a history of maphacking.


Raz == Dbmb == Zed03

Deadbolt =\= Seeking

Regardless of Seeking playing on the account, they're not the same person in the way that Raz WAS Dbmb and Zed03.
17 Mar 2021, 02:58 AM
#374
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1896

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Mar 2021, 00:47 AMCieZ


..... Fun fact, he has been banned at least three times over by Relic.


More fun facts - Seeking has played on an account that has also been banned three times, except by Steam.
aaa
17 Mar 2021, 03:01 AM
#375
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1484

100% cheat. No question.
So he is getting kicked from tournaments. But play automatches no problem?
17 Mar 2021, 03:33 AM
#376
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 488 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Mar 2021, 02:41 AMCieZ


Raz == Dbmb == Zed03

Deadbolt =\= Seeking

Regardless of Seeking playing on the account, they're not the same person in the way that Raz WAS Dbmb and Zed03.


The problem ultimatetly is that he not only played on the account. But on the same pc by his own admission (from what he said in the 30 min talk)
A_E
17 Mar 2021, 10:31 AM
#377
avatar of A_E
Lead Caster Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2416 | Subs: 6

FYI from the ML discord:

A_E — Today at 10:23 AM
@everyone Two bans, and three apologies

ML BANS

Seeking - For playing on the Deadbolt account after an initial one tourney ban for boosting on 29th of Jan, Seeking will be temp banned from ML for one year until 1st March 2022. I feel it's in our best interests to have a hard line on this account sharing due to Deadbolt being shown to be map hacking.

Seeking is not being perma banned for map hacking as there is no 'smoking gun' evidence that can't be disputed as "game sense" etc. It has clearly been shown that the 100% obvious map hacking was done whist it was Deadbolt playing. Should firm evidence of map hacking be found of Seeking in the future however, obviously this will be revisited.

Deadbolt - (Seeking's irl uncle) has been shown to be using hacks in replays that are 100% obvious he is of course therefore banned.

APOLOGIES

I apologise to Seeking that all attempts were made to not handle this privately; in hindsight they should have been. I selfishly protected myself by ensuring speculation was minimised through transparency but created an unfair process. I'm a firm believer in 'innocent until proven guilty' therefore Seeking shouldn't be known as a map hacker. I will be making a video on this as it’s only fair that it's given equal platform.

I apologise to ML players that the procedures in the ML are not robust enough to offer a due process when evidence is reported, we're offering real money to play for here so I feel it's time to get real and iron out our processes and procedures. No point saying "but we're an amateur league" when we're offering real money. The @Referees and I will be working hard to write and vote on procedures that will protect us all in the future.

I apologise to the community that I rushed this out and brought this to everyone's attention thinking it was conclusive, however it's now time to deal only with facts and act based on facts
17 Mar 2021, 10:37 AM
#378
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1403

Lol. Reputation. Like this is something important. Of course Seeking won't be banned. Cheating (probably) or not. An 8y old game with barely the playerbase, blowing this sh** out of proportion. People just like to feel important I guess.

If this were at all serious, you'd watch the clips, analyze and make a decision. Pretty much every thing on those clips can be summed down to "luck" or "game sense", and as such, no damning decision will be made, so stop this nonsense thread.

You don't need a comity of 300 posts and people following this BS thread to make a decision.
"Innocent until proven guilty" won't pass here because you don't have any concrete evidence. Only suspicious behaviour... so don't give all that BS about "innocent until proven guilty". Proven guilty about what? Even if he had 10 cheating bans on the account, it doesn't prove a thing.
So again. Stop this BS public thread. Go private. Decide whoever you feel like has no life to actually waste time arguing/proving this case like it's a life/death situation and get on with it.


EDIT: I mean, "seeing this investigation through".... You're hoping to get your hands on a video camera showing Seeking turning on the cheats?

If you wanted to make a decision, you would have done it. There is nothing smart or profound to be found here. You have a male/female person that had an above average number of "luck instances". That's all there is to it. Simple statistics. From my experience, as an average player (so trying to push my luck as far as it goes since I have nothing to lose, unlike tournament plays), I'll get 2-3 instances of pure luck in a game. Be it retreating in just the right time, moving something out of harms way, without knowing the harm is coming, randomly barraging FOW and getting a squad or two in the process..... etc.... so from my point of view, the clips on the first page are extremely suspicious. No amount of game sense is going to give you such precision. You can get lucky once or twice, but that's it.
17 Mar 2021, 11:09 AM
#379
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2475 | Subs: 21



17 Mar 2021, 11:13 AM
#380
avatar of IpKaiFung
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1677 | Subs: 2

Decide whoever you feel like has no life to actually waste time arguing/proving this case like it's a life/death situation and get on with it.


yet you feel the need to comment
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