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Top level player allegedly maphacking in CoH2

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16 Mar 2021, 01:33 AM
#341
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Mar 2021, 01:23 AMVonIvan

Not everyone has good memory for coh2. That being said one must take into account what the real reason was behind the katy /brummbar firing


Yup. You can even expand it further. Not everyone has a good memory period. Not that this is a court of law by any means, but that is why no lawyer will ever suggest speaking to the cops (even though the cops lie and tell you that it will help - it won't) because you could remember something wrong or the cops could remember something that you told them wrong. In either case you can end up looking bad even if there was no reason to look bad in the first place.

I'm not blaming Brosras or suggesting that he did anything out of malice, but it would have helped a lot if we had more context for most/all of these clips from the outset.
16 Mar 2021, 01:53 AM
#342
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 678 | Subs: 2



What i dont understand is why seeking or in this case Kimbo is the one who had to deliver the context for this clip. Isnt it the job of those who accuse him of cheating to prove that the situation doesnt allow anything else than a maphack to be the explaination before Seeking has to defend his position?
How many of those clips can be explained with the context of the situation instead of Seeking writing an essay about why, when, how and what his feelings, hopes and dreams were in an intense game?





True, the onus is on the accusers to provide the FULL arguments. And the unnecessary clip spam doesn't exactly make it easy to properly analyze the context. Some of the clip titles are also heavily suggestive which doesnt help.

The problem is seeking just taints his credibility by continuing to lie about the deadbolt thing. He insisted on the FoW thing several times. It wasn't like he made some casual comment about it that is now used against him. So while calling him a liar might go to far he was at least bullshitting about it (in the sense of just saying something that seemed to work as a defence without caring about the truth). Combine that with his dishonesty regarding deadbolt and I feel like Aerafield's point is vaild.

On a side note: I don't get why no one seems to differentiate between the clips from ML (cheating in ML would obviously require a perma ban from the event) and automatch (imho messing around with a maphack in automatch should not lead to a perma bann but that could just be me). Doping in sports does not necessarily entail a ban for life either. I don't see why a small RTS with a tiny playerpool should have higher standards.
16 Mar 2021, 02:22 AM
#343
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 904 | Subs: 1



I get that, but in this particular katyusha clip, nobody told me/us that there is a Twitch VoD available for it. And we certainly won't check hours of VoDs because there might be a context clip.


This is again because no replays were posted. Even for the most controversial games. But judging by your words, even you didn't watch replays.

Not like you have to in a first place, but again, we have really fishy clips mixed up with really weak ones and on top of that have clips like katy one (which are fishy when they are taken out of context). All of this creates really unhealty and one-sided view on the whole situation.
16 Mar 2021, 09:44 AM
#344
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 2743 | Subs: 2

I think Brosras needs to redo his clips. He provides 40+ clips that are at least partially used as evidence, most of them are in the realm of 15-30ish seconds. The Katy example shows that this might be not enough, there should be a minute of context before the odd thing happens. Especially in team games where we can't hear additional information provided by Kimbo via voice chat.

On many clips he points out things like Seeking looking into the FOW or moving/stopping a squad that should have moved differently, which proves that he watched them throughoutly. Yet he misses an obvious thing like the blob being spottet 5-10 seconds prior to the Katy barrage (in part 1 you can see the prior engagement and Scott being hit that could explain the situation, however he only disables the follow camera and moves to the suspicious area after this when the blob is hidden again).

It still does not excuse Seeking assumingly lying about Deadbolt and other things, but Brosras' clips are poorly done.
A_E
16 Mar 2021, 10:56 AM
#345
avatar of A_E
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Posts: 2409 | Subs: 6



I am downgrading my coh2 copy to February era, and will be making full videos from seeking's perspective. If there's map hacking it will be obvious quite frankly.

Genuinly when Brosras and Artavik were making these clips it occured to me 100% that they were too short and 720p is too low quality. However I kept quiet because I thought that overall there was enough evidence to go off, and time was of the essence.

Now we have people (quite rightly) looking for logical defenses of Seeking, and it's healthy that that happens. But to be frank, if there's map hacking it will be easy to show with proper evidence.

That said, different evidence has come to light that Seeking very likely played on the Deadbolt account later than he first admitted and after the temp ban from ML for boosting in January, if this is true we might just keep this nice and tidy and steer this thing away from accusations of map hacking. I have PM'd Seeking to this effect yesterday and am still awaiting a response.

Again to reiterate this only has anything to do with Master League tournaments at present, and is just ensuring fair play in the context of community run tournaments for community donated funds.
16 Mar 2021, 11:20 AM
#346
avatar of Hannibal
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jump backJump back to quoted post16 Mar 2021, 10:56 AMA_E
snip

If he has been hacking or lying about account switching with a cheater to presumably hide something, I say ban the heck (pun intended) out of him.

But just the sheer volume of clips stirs the public opinion already in a direction. And if we have some hints that a decent chunk of these (they were cited in the initial list after all) were poorly captured, they should not be part of the process until we have better evidence. I am looking forward to your perspective. It is always better to have someone that has not participated in the game looking through it.

Will the replays been published for download?
16 Mar 2021, 11:23 AM
#347
avatar of Sturmpanther
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Posts: 5419 | Subs: 28




Will the replays been published for download?


I am a noob at this. When someone explains me how to upload all replays to a cloud, then i can put the link in the document.
16 Mar 2021, 11:33 AM
#348
avatar of Sturmpanther
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jump backJump back to quoted post15 Mar 2021, 18:42 PMRosbone



I think you asked about the single ingame code order.



In the replay the ability is shown at 24.10 / 24.11. So its already delayed.
--> Means the button clicked / reaction was already before (24.09).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlFDmsKh5EY&list=PL_YBMTftAjosbora-jA6DR54ix8ZY_NNq&index=33


Here are the logs for the sandbag volks:


So the first stop order was 1.31. Means he did not press stop after sawing the pathfinder, to shoot. He instant clicked to move the unit away. He stopped short then to finish the cap.

Here is the clip to it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEmhhG6IfHU&list=PL_YBMTftAjosbora-jA6DR54ix8ZY_NNq&index=14

A_E
16 Mar 2021, 11:35 AM
#349
avatar of A_E
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Donator 11

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If he has been hacking or lying about account switching with a cheater to presumably hide something, I say ban the heck (pun intended) out of him.


Well it's been shown that he has lied about the Deadbolt situation originally, then later admitted it. Seeking also agrees that if this was a professional e-sports league he'd be banned already due to the Deadbolt account boosting etc. (then that account later being shown to have map hacked, and Seeking probably played on it after the warning).

If anything he has received preferential treatment for this still only being "investigated", there's enough to go off to act decisively. Without even considering whether he himself map hacked or not, which the bulk of evidence still points towards in my opinion.
16 Mar 2021, 11:39 AM
#350
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 369

Honestly, if he hacked, he will never admit it.

So many of those are suspicious, even allowing him to explain them away is preferential treatment.

Liar will lie until the end.

You should all save your energy and ban Deadbolt and Kimbo(Kimbo most likely knew, if not, he 100% indirectly benefited from pings etc), the community loses nothing by not having them in tournaments.

16 Mar 2021, 12:08 PM
#351
avatar of WebsterBolek

Posts: 36

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Mar 2021, 11:39 AMNaOCl
Honestly, if he hacked, he will never admit it.


Yeah, but it's not 100% conviction.
16 Mar 2021, 12:20 PM
#352
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 2743 | Subs: 2



I am a noob at this. When someone explains me how to upload all replays to a cloud, then i can put the link in the document.

-> See PM

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Mar 2021, 11:35 AMA_E

Well it's been shown that he has lied about the Deadbolt situation originally, then later admitted it. Seeking also agrees that if this was a professional e-sports league he'd be banned already due to the Deadbolt account boosting etc. (then that account later being shown to have map hacked, and Seeking probably played on it after the warning).

If anything he has received preferential treatment for this still only being "investigated", there's enough to go off to act decisively. Without even considering whether he himself map hacked or not, which the bulk of evidence still points towards in my opinion.

Fully agree that Seeking is getting preferential treatment, other players would have not gotten as much attention and surely not as much discussion.

My point is more that IF clips of map hacking will be used to justify a ban decision, those clips should be good and not raise obvious doubts on the issue by themselves. At least in the opening post the clips were the main point of evidence and debate. If you meanwhile got to know of more dubious behavior that already warrants a ML ban, fine by me. I can fully understand that reasoning.
But if that is not enough for you and clips are included in the reasoning, then everyone will be better off if these clips are good. Otherwise it just damages the whole process. That's all I originally wanted to say.
16 Mar 2021, 13:29 PM
#353
avatar of Sturmpanther
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Here are the most of the replays. Not sure if i grabbed/ found all.
The replays vs Isildur in the finals are there to show the difference between seeking looking and acting in fow, while a ref is watching him, and without ref / without streaming in automatch. Feel free to self watch VOD from February, January before this went public.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Eqh7r-27REbut0O46OOmlt01W17_y_C-


And I just can repeat myself. Seeking and the players had access to this replays.
16 Mar 2021, 14:24 PM
#354
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

Here are the most of the replays. Not sure if i grabbed/ found all.
The replays vs Isildur in the finals are there to show the difference between seeking looking and acting in fow, while a ref is watching him, and without ref / without streaming in automatch. Feel free to self watch VOD from February, January before this went public.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Eqh7r-27REbut0O46OOmlt01W17_y_C-


And I just can repeat myself. Seeking and the players had access to this replays.


Thanks. This should help and is fair towards all sides.
16 Mar 2021, 15:14 PM
#355
avatar of |GB| The Lnt.599

Posts: 317 | Subs: 1



Can someone maybe Rosbone, tell where the border of the fow is in this clip. Because it seems almost like some models are visible while in the fow.

https://clips.twitch.tv/IcyShortBillRuleFive-PDZZCWFDf-1O51ak Kimbo vod clip
16 Mar 2021, 16:24 PM
#356
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2645 | Subs: 4


The replays vs Isildur in the finals are there to show the difference between seeking looking and acting in fow, while a ref is watching him, and without ref / without streaming in automatch.




They are available in the video format as well for those who are interested:



16 Mar 2021, 16:29 PM
#357
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

Here are the most of the replays. Not sure if i grabbed/ found all.
The replays vs Isildur in the finals are there to show the difference between seeking looking and acting in fow, while a ref is watching him, and without ref / without streaming in automatch. Feel free to self watch VOD from February, January before this went public.


Just from watching his Twitch streams and comparing them to the clips provided it is pretty clear there is a big difference. When streaming he rarely has his camera on FOW while in these clips he is on FOW a lot. I found this difference quite big.
16 Mar 2021, 18:04 PM
#358
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1668 | Subs: 2



Can someone maybe Rosbone, tell where the border of the fow is in this clip. Because it seems almost like some models are visible while in the fow.

https://clips.twitch.tv/IcyShortBillRuleFive-PDZZCWFDf-1O51ak Kimbo vod clip

I am not smart enough to say exactly what the FOW is.

My guess:
When you edit building damage in the worldbuilder, you create a sphere and position that sphere on the building where the damage is. When the render code draws the building it checks each pixel to see if its in the sphere or out and draws accordingly. In the sphere draws damage, outside draws normal object.

The FOW is a 2D array (Excel grid) where each cell is 1 meter. To create the FOW, you make a circle in the 2D array at the units sight distance. This does not show sight blocking objects. So you probably need to trace a line from the units position to the edge of the circle in 360 degrees.

This is a VERY time consuming process. I assume Relic is smarter than me and has a better plan. So in vCOH I dont think it was calculated very often. In COH2 it has some logic behind its calc (optimized).

Either way, you now have a Black and White picture (2D array) of the FOW. When drawing the level, you would perform a 2D check on each pixel as its drawn to see if its in or out of the FOW. Or even better just use the FOW cell value as a multiplier, then NO check is needed at all.

Since units are the same size as a cell generically, you could just check the models position vs the 2D array and skip drawing the unit (optimization).

The confusion comes in the fact that the FOW would have very hard edges and look really bad. So their needs to be some smoothing/blurring to get a nice soft shadow edge. This is where your sample image shows that it is not super clear where the actual edge is. So imagine the excel cells are black and white but when blurred you get grey cells in between.

In your image, the unit that is circled is probably in the visible part of the FOW but there is a dark stain texture under him so it looks like he should not be visible.

I did a quick test to find the line. First two frames are visible sniper. The next two frames are invisible sniper with FOW on and off.


If my guess is correct the line could be the first truly dark cell.

I hope that makes some sense.
16 Mar 2021, 18:11 PM
#359
avatar of |GB| The Lnt.599

Posts: 317 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Mar 2021, 18:04 PMRosbone


The confusion comes in the fact that the FOW would have very hard edges and look really bad. So their needs to be some smoothing/blurring to get a nice soft shadow edge. This is where your sample image shows that it is not super clear where the actual edge is. So imagine the excel cells are black and white but when blurred you get grey cells in between.

In you image the unit that is circled is probably in the visible part of the FOW but there is a dark stain texture under him so it looks like he should not be visible.

I did a quick test to find the line. First two frames are visible sniper. The next two frames are invisible sniper with FOW on and off.


I hope that makes some sense.


Aha thank you, so that model is prob still out of the fow, but bcs the game smooths things out its in the 'shadow' border?
16 Mar 2021, 18:19 PM
#360
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1668 | Subs: 2

Aha thank you, so that model is prob still out of the fow, but bcs the game smooths things out its in the 'shadow' border?

In your image probably yes. The unit is in the in-between (grey) cell area which could still be considered visible.

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