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Sandbags nerfed enough? Nope

5 Mar 2021, 23:17 PM
#1
avatar of WhiteFlash
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https://clips.twitch.tv/MoldyIronicDurianEleGiggle-CmY87g5SeW0C4e5m

For the love of science...

Do either:

1. +50% or double sandbag build time on mainline inf

Or

2. Remove sandbags from mainline inf entirely

...in both cases keep engineers build time normal

Cheers
5 Mar 2021, 23:40 PM
#2
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

Why? What will it accomplish?

And changing sandbags that radically will completely screw balance into Ostheer, USF and Soviet T1 favour so why bother?
5 Mar 2021, 23:40 PM
#3
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17909 | Subs: 8

The point was to prevent building sandbags before capping neutral point, making you choose between losing time on building sandbags or moving on to next poiont, not to demo charge them from the game.
5 Mar 2021, 23:52 PM
#4
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 953

Would love to know how volks/IS are supposed to be used (outside of blobs) without sandbags.....
6 Mar 2021, 00:34 AM
#5
avatar of WhiteFlash
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There may be a case to have volks build sandbags at a snails pace, otherwise as stated above stands.

People that dont know "what it accomplishes" dont remember how good COH was when the maps mattered because sandbags werent literally everywhere you look.
Pip
6 Mar 2021, 00:47 AM
#6
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594

There may be a case to have volks build sandbags at a snails pace, otherwise as stated above stands.

People that dont know "what it accomplishes" dont remember how good COH was when the maps mattered because sandbags werent literally everywhere you look.


Haven't Conscripts always had their sandbags, though?

And in CoH1, both Riflemen and Volksgrenadiers had Sandbags, Panzergrenadiers instead had Roadblocks, which were fairly similar. The only mainline that DIDN'T have sandbags were the Infantry sections (Instead having the Slit Trench), though Sappers did have Sandbags in their stead.
6 Mar 2021, 01:08 AM
#7
avatar of TheMachine
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People that dont know "what it accomplishes" dont remember how good COH was when the maps mattered because sandbags werent literally everywhere you look.


Not only did Coh2 remove the decision making between capturing a point and fighting in combat (Especially with support weapons), but Sandbag spam on mainlines also removed the decision between taking optimal cover and capturing a point. Without getting bogged down in the specific faction balance, I think it's pretty clear the current implementation of mass spam sandbags while capturing points is not good for the game. The build time increase was nice and prevents the spam in the early game capping of neutral strat points but doesn't really effect more important points with longer cap times or when an enemy point is being decaptured and captured.

Putting Sandbags only on Engineer type units would see sandbags less prevalent and create a lot more tactical depth around cover and capturing. Sandbags were accessible in Coh1 but they couldn't be spammed while capturing points so they were much less used and more tactical. Mass sandbag spam also makes Flamethrowers too important.

6 Mar 2021, 01:26 AM
#8
avatar of WhiteFlash
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Mar 2021, 00:47 AMPip


Haven't Conscripts always had their sandbags, though?

And in CoH1, both Riflemen and Volksgrenadiers had Sandbags, Panzergrenadiers instead had Roadblocks, which were fairly similar. The only mainline that DIDN'T have sandbags were the Infantry sections (Instead having the Slit Trench), though Sappers did have Sandbags in their stead.


Rifles did not have nondocrtinal sandbags

Please remember, COH1 sandbags were not as impactful as COH2 sandbags. The sandbag spam in COH2 has been, and continues to be, out of control
6 Mar 2021, 02:07 AM
#9
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Would love to know how volks/IS are supposed to be used (outside of blobs) without sandbags.....

a long time ago, WAAAAAAY back when commanders were all purchased with only money, ostheer (its like the brits but squishier) had to use the map! it was the wild west! having to maneuver and not having maximum durability each and every single place you wanted it. not every single capture point or lane had sandbags to retreat to. green cover was a bonus not the baseline for every shingle engagement. and since there wasnt a sand bag every 6 feet, it was even possible to be caught in a bad position! boy was the game more dynamic then....
6 Mar 2021, 02:12 AM
#10
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
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I'm not gonna delve into the topic of what to do here but as far as the clip goes, it looks like elpern was getting smashed a bit, and when you get smashed people really tend to fortify their territory with bags. I think that's a decent explaination to the clip.
6 Mar 2021, 02:35 AM
#11
avatar of Tobis
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Donator 11

Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4

Sandbags should be removed from every mainline except for conscripts. This will require some rebalancing for volks and tommies but it is necessary. What's the point in map design if every point has a perfect set of green cover on it? It makes blobbing more useful as a counter and makes positioning less important.
6 Mar 2021, 03:07 AM
#12
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

  • Conscripts are utility infantry that relies on cover to win any engagement, so they should keep their sandbags.
  • Infantry Sections should keep theirs, or be reworked without the cover penalty.
  • Riflemen have theirs only with doctrine which I think is fine, but they could be moved to Rear Echelon as a non-doctrine ability.
  • Volksgrenadiers should have theirs removed because they're already efficient units for their price-point.
6 Mar 2021, 04:07 AM
#13
avatar of WhiteFlash
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Mar 2021, 02:35 AMTobis
Sandbags should be removed from every mainline except for conscripts. This will require some rebalancing for volks and tommies but it is necessary. What's the point in map design if every point has a perfect set of green cover on it? It makes blobbing more useful as a counter and makes positioning less important.


+1
6 Mar 2021, 07:15 AM
#14
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Mar 2021, 02:35 AMTobis
Sandbags should be removed from every mainline except for conscripts. This will require some rebalancing for volks and tommies but it is necessary


Ideally? Yes. Practically? Too many ripple effects on balance that we won't be able to solve in one patch that may be the last.
6 Mar 2021, 07:32 AM
#15
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13478 | Subs: 1

https://clips.twitch.tv/MoldyIronicDurianEleGiggle-CmY87g5SeW0C4e5m

For the love of science...

Do either:

1. +50% or double sandbag build time on mainline inf

Or

2. Remove sandbags from mainline inf entirely

...in both cases keep engineers build time normal

Cheers

I agree. I have suggest removing sandbags from mainline infantry for a very long time.
6 Mar 2021, 10:13 AM
#16
avatar of A table

Posts: 249

What about changing it to light cover instead of heavy cover? Cons can keep their regular heavy cover buildable, but other factions have their regular Hcover sandbags replaced with light cover buildables instead. Dunno if there is a appropriate model for that though.
6 Mar 2021, 10:50 AM
#17
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1



Ideally? Yes. Practically? Too many ripple effects on balance that we won't be able to solve in one patch that may be the last.


This.

If sandbags were removed from mainline infantry the balance would go completely out of control and require several patches to get right again. Which is just totally unrealistic at this point of COH2's life span.

You can't just remove sandbags from certain factions relying on them. Imagine playing UKF vs Ostheer without sandbags it would be incredibly hard/next to impossible to compete. Same goes for Conscripts without sandbags or even Volks. All of these factions are balanced around having sandbags available for them.

OKW Sturms are already overtasked as it is if they had to build sandbags as well it would completely ruin the whole faction's early game and would be totally unfair compared to factions like Soviets or Ostheer that can get cheap T0 engineer units.

It would also be yet another step into making all factions play the same which just makes the game boring.
6 Mar 2021, 10:56 AM
#18
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13478 | Subs: 1



This.

If sandbags were removed from mainline infantry the balance would go completely out of control and require several patches to get right again. Which is just totally unrealistic at this point of COH2's life span.

You can't just remove sandbags from certain factions relying on them. Imagine playing UKF vs Ostheer without sandbags it would be incredibly hard/next to impossible to compete. Same goes for Conscripts without sandbags or even Volks. All of these factions are balanced around having sandbags available for them.

OKW Sturms are already overtasked as it is if they had to build sandbags as well it would completely ruin the whole faction's early game and would be totally unfair compared to factions like Soviets or Ostheer that can get cheap T0 engineer units.

It would also be yet another step into making all factions play the same which just makes the game boring.

Not having sandbag in mainline infatry does not mean they will not cover. It mean they will have to utilize the maps cover instead of getting the perfect cover in perfect place.

Part of the reason why btirs are so hard to balance is that they have ideal conditions in almost all engagement with green or garrison cover and full health from heal.

It actually things like these that allow the to perform above their price.

As for OKW it rather "funny" that the "aggressive" faction gets sandbag in their mainline infatry and "defensive" faction does not.
6 Mar 2021, 11:20 AM
#19
avatar of Letzte Bataillon

Posts: 195

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Mar 2021, 10:56 AMVipper


As for OKW it rather "funny" that the "aggressive" faction get sandbag in their mainline infatry and "defensive" faction does not.


Indeed. Considering that LMG Grenadiers can't even shoot while on the move, it's baffling Relic decided this was a good idea when designing the different armies.
6 Mar 2021, 12:19 PM
#20
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1



Indeed. Considering that LMG Grenadiers can't even shoot while on the move, it's baffling Relic decided this was a good idea when designing the different armies.


Ostheer is played around team weapons while OKW is not. Ostheer also has super early Pgrens which are way better than anything OKW can field in the early game.
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